Hey Cell, don't worry man. I understand the difficulty you are having. Telling a person that it gets better after 40 is also a horrible excuse for an inefficient and squishy class. Here is something that almost everyone on here who had an "easy time" is forgetting to mention: After getting their starting areas, they easily out leveled every planet by 4-5 levels. There is no other class in the game that has to RELY on out leveling content to such a degree to get the friggin job done. When my Juggernaut was lvl 43 and in FANTASTIC GEAR I was forced to stop questing and go back to Hoth because the lvl 41 content was tearing me apart. And the elites? Forget about it, every fight was just waiting on CDs and sending my companion in first. My Operative has no such problems and breezes through same level content ALL DAY. So all in all man? You aren't alone in your strife. In fact it's quite common as I have helped tons of fellow sith warriors with their quest because they just couldn't solo stuff around their level. The class is gimped bad. Here is a write up I posted earlier of why. It's not just this MMO, it's an all to common trend with Developers over the past 10 years: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=293979 Forgot to add this. For alot of people (myself included) MMOs are about leveling. So telling us that a class will suck for 40 levels out of 50 is unacceptable. Said classes aren't created for the patient and skilled, they are just poorly designed.

You know what? Lormif buddy you actually make a fantastic point here. Except the reason people are rerolling isn't the lore, it the part where you said, "seeing how it is the class move related to a fantasy rpg that most are used to." I posted on this earlier, but in short a recent trend set by MMO Developers is to gimp melee classes and a create dominating caster classes. Everyone who has played MMOs KNEW that caster were going to be OP because that's what they are used to. Ice mages in WOW, Bright Wizards in War, Psy/radiation defenders in City of Heroes. All absolutely dominating classes that were light years ahead of every class. They also were all considered "clothies" yet their spells/abilites made them so incredibly durable they could solo content and pvp like the melee classes could only dream of. And you know what? People are absolutely fine with it because of they wear "light armor". Yet in the same breath if i complain that my tank class does awful dmg, no self heal to keep me alive, and "heavy armor" that mitigates NOTHING, those same people will tell me i am "working as intended." Because tanks, "are meant to be useless without their support." WHAT?! So do you see what I'm saying? When my guildies come to a new mmo with me they won't touch melee with a 10ft pole because they KNOW they are gonna be gimped. Instead they always opt for the caster, especially if it's a healing dmg hybrid. And so far they have been correct 100% of the time in the last 10 years. That right there is why everyone is rolling a Sorc, they are used to the mage like classes being a rock stars, so their amazing preformance is taken for granted and just downplayed as "business as usual."

There you go guys. Tatami kills them all the time, so obviously nothing is wrong and we all just suck. I really wish i had such leet skillz... Lmao don't post responses like this. C'mon now

Of course I am brotha! Or else I wouldn't be posting. In FACT jugg/mara mobility actually counts as NEGATIVE points to their dmg, because they are melee characters who get cc'd all the time lol. Heavy armor stops a lil bit of dmg but it's nothing to write home about, when lightning is slowing you to a crawl and stopping you from doing ANY dmg whatsoever. And the biggest thing that I forgot to mention. After twelve seconds my saber ward is gone. So if i get cc'd while in it and I am still out of melee range it's not sticking around after it times out. Your billy bubble on the other hand is sticking around for a good long time so it's fresh and ready to go when i eventually make it to you. That is a MAJOR difference and why the bubb has such an advantage. Surely you can agree with me on that issue?

A. 12 seconds out of 3 minutes means it is up for 7% of that 3 minute window. With it's ability to be up every 20 seconds for a 3.2k soak/various CC's the bubble has leaps and bounds more ability to soak up way more dmg than saber ward could ever dream of. B. The 50% defensive buff sounds a lot stronger than it actually is. The problem is against one opponent your odds of taking too much dmg isn't that great. But believe me when i say that dmg sure still gets through. In the example you give of multiple opponents hitting you, with the way percentages work, an enormous amount of dmg gets through quite easily. It doesn't scale really at all. Now the same can be said of the bubble so I won't argue with you there. But the big difference is once popped, a Sorc has other abilities to fall back on and heal himself. The jugg/marauder? Not so much. Now here is the kicker...by the time all this is said and done guess what? The Sorcs bubble is back up while saber ward is STILL on CD. Bubble is still better.

Man lol Saber Ward is on A THREE MINUTE COOL DOWN. Chances are that if you are fighting a jugg or a marauder, it's on CD. I would trade it for the bubble in a heartbeat. Infinitely more useful, can be put on other players, and can be recast during a fight. So since it's up so little, mathematically speaking it is completely inferior.

Dude what did i just tell you guys? You don't need a combat log. Can you do the following equation? 800 + 1500 + 1200 - 3200 = 300 Do you know what that was? That's a numerical representation of the initial fight between a Sorc and a juggernaut. Smash hits for 800 Impale hits for 1.5k Force Scream hit for 1.2k The Sorc bubble dropped after scream and i saw that he only took 300 dmg after that entire attack sequence. We were both the same level and he didn't have any buffs on him save for the regular team ones. Through previous testing i know exactly how much my attacks are going to hit for against light - heavy armor types my level. Simple mathematics. How are you gonna sit there and just call it perception/anecdotal evidence when I am looking at the screen and seeing actual numbers and their effect on my opponent and I. Observation and implementation of Data from different resources is exactly how you can find what your dmg is. I see over and over again people saying "pvp isn't about 1vs1 so all data from that is flawed." To that i say, "well sir how do you think i know the numbers i put up against different classes when they are buffed and unbuffed? Simple I duel them under all those conditions so when it's world pvp i can know EXACTLY what's going on."

Lmao combat logs? Stop harping on that junk. It's called getting a couple friends, dueling under various controlled situations, and analyzing the recorded data. You don't need a friggin computer algorithm to do it for you. Also, when you pvp enough, you know EXACTLY who's dmg/cc's are blowing you up and who is not. You also get to know where your class stands. Don't get me wrong, combat logs are a great tool. But they are by no means the ONLY accurate way to determine dps. The same data that combat logs use are easily available to players ingame. With easily obtainable input (through duels and pve) plugged into simple equations you can see EXACTLY what your effective dps is in under 5 minutes. No combat log needed.

Dang sith you hit the nail on the head! I remember fighting bright wizards in WAR all day long and just getting BLOWN up no matter what tactic i tried. Save for making a bright myself of course lol. I mean it got so bad that if more than one focused on you for a split second, your heath bar disappeared. Bur for real, you are absolutely right. If the devs ignore the disparity between ranged and melee the game is dead. Just as there are people out there who prefer ranged classes there are a ton who only melee, and for the past 10 years MMO developers have consistently let the melee lovers down.

3) Sometimes rethinking your strategy instead of trying the same thing that failed over and over again is a step in the right direction. Just sayin'. This right here is pretty much sums up your entire post and is a prime example of what I am talking about. Do you honestly think I and every other poster on this thread got beat over and over again by this spec and didn't try other builds/rotations out? Bro every single one of your posts REEKS with the assumption of other players stupidity and your own elitism. I mean that's exactly what you are implying with such statements. And that little snide "just sayin' junk? lol Give people the benefit of the doubt at the very least and assume they have tried to work with their class. Not every issue is L2P. Also I notice every time people try and give examples or tell you something, it's just batted down like it's pure idiocy. C'mon bro...this coming from the guy who said to beat a sorc just don't use your gap closer right away and RUN at him while being slowed and eating dmg...when has that tactic in an MMO ever worked for a melee class? Never. It always leads to more CC, wasted time, and eventually death.

There you go, and for the record I have no problem with your post. It actually dealt with the subject material and didn't come from a standpoint of superiority. So i am happy to answer it

Tumri, you said what needs to be said man. Just end the thread. The people trying to argue and say that the spec/class is balanced are just trying to protect their own position or make themselves feel intellectually Superior because apparently 90% of the people who play this game cannot figure out how to deal with Sorcs while THEY can. It's blatantly clear that the class is OP because of one reason. 1. 60% of any given server is made up of sorcs and sages. That many people wouldn't be playing a class because of the "challenge". 2. They have the absolute highest representation in pvp and dominate in that arena. Such representation isn't because of the high "skill curve" of the class....it's because people know you can get on a sorc and blow people up easily, while getting 7+ medals a game with little effort. 3. A simple comparative look at their skills (which has been done over and over in this post) shows that they have much more defensive capabilities than any other class in the game. 4. With the way resolve works it's basically useless against them. With their toolset they have plenty of abilites to wreck your face even if your bar is all nice and full. 5. Interrupts are useless against them. No class in this game has endless interrupts, which would be needed to actually stop them from casting effectively. After you have wasted your interrupt on that nasty force lightning that has already ticked twice on you (because you were busy trying to actually attack and now have to find the key your interrupt is on) they have a plethora of other skills/escapes/slows that will mess you up. All in all, even after all this has been said...the opposition will still present the three following arguements: 1. "Well i play/played a Sorc and I know there are some obvious ways to stop me that most people are to dumb to notice. I'm just that smart and everyone else is just that dumb so L2P." 2. "Well I have nothing to really counter you with so instead i am going to attack your augmentative form and claim it is full of "fallacies" and improper technique. You see by fancy philosophical argumentative terms, I can belittle you behind a facade of politeness and tolerance. When in reality I'm just saying I'm smart and you guys are dumb because i know how to beat my class while everyone else is just too stupid to figure it out." 3. "You really need to L2P guys. All classes are completely balanced despite any flaws in their design, and it just comes down to LEET GAMING SKILLZ that apparently only I have because 90% of game players are dumb. I however am not dumb, I am smart." Thanks for the thread man, I hope the devs take a serious look at it. -Drega

Look if it was as simple as you say to counter sorcerers post like these would barely exist. People do complain a lot, but there is an OVERWHELMING outcry about this issue. Also there would be a lot less of them in the game dominating the pvp boards. And matches would not come down to who brought the most sorcs/sages = win. Your advice of telling melee forgo the initial closer and to just hide behind something...atrocious. That does nothing but render said melee useless (something which the OP already explained to you). And telling us we all just need to get the jump on them is just as lame. BTW that bubble that goes down so easily? Yah it can withstand the full brunt of an operative's opener and you take very little to no dmg. Then he his out of dps for a lil while. In the meantime you are free to go to town on him. Here is a newsflash for you Var and everyone with your mindset, most of the players on SWTOR are not "bad". This is a video game designed for ease of use and enjoyment so it's pretty hard to be bad at it. They simply play classes that appeal to them while you stick to classes that have obvious advantages, exploit them to their fullest abilities, and claim everything is hunky dory because everyone else just sucks. Look i don't expect to change your mind, because obviously your skill is so legendary that you can somehow change developer built in game mechanics with it. But stop belitting the thousands of players out there by insisting they all suck and acting like their concerns are because of it. That's called emotional manipulation. It's the same thing men do to women when she says something feels wrong and he constantly dismisses her and says that no such problem exists. Great post Tumri and keep up the good fight. Don't let guys like these get to you. You have brought up a very valid game play issue that needs addressing. I hope your request does not go unanswered.

Varicite...a sentinel and Operatives for hard counters...really man? Every "counter" strategy you have stated takes time. And how is a melee supposed to get in there and actually do dmg when you have to save your gap closer for sprint. Good luck running up to him while you are getting lightning slowed and doing 0 dmg because you can't get in range. AND when you finally make it, there is that wonderful bubble to get though, not to mention more stuns or a whirlwind if he doesn't want to be bothered. By the time I have done all this another friend of the sorcs has come to add onto the attacking dps and my window has closed. Most likely the sorcs bubble is still up. Everything you say sounds so simple on paper, but the current game mechanics don't make it so.

Once again you missed the entire point of my posting with that same l2p attitude. The fact of the matter is that you shouldn't have to jump through a ton of hoops to deal with an opposing class, when they can blow you away with a quarter the button presses. That's called a mismatch in efficiency, and your skills have absolutely nothing to add to that equation. It's a developer problem which you are arrogantly ignoring because you will not admit such disparities even exists. And if you are willing to admit it, then that means you are just dandy with having one class completely dominate others with little effort, while all of the opposing classes must just suck it up and deal with a complicated rotation to even have a chance at competing. Using a class that is highly inefficient to fight a very optimized one has it's limits. So land your mind back in reality and think like a game designer whose goal it is to make all classes have a fair chance at each other.

Exactly right! Look if you want to give ranged classes an absurd of amount of control vs melee characters, fine. BUT if somehow that melee character makes it to you, you should be completely shut down from casting as long as he is connecting. Not some silly push back that is easily gotten around.

Lol how does this keep happening? The evidence is clear and the original poster's point is backed up with very good evidence, great threads throughout the forums, and just plain common sense. Yet still there are so many L2P responses. I think the problem here is the general gaming community is used to looking through very biased eyes. With the way mmos have been trending they are used to healers that can put out dmg and take longer to kill than a tank. Caster classes with "light armor" that skirt around balance with self casting shields also boasts extremely streamlined and efficient power sets/resource management and talents compared to other classes. And all of this at ranged! With all these abilities combined ranged class like the sith sorc have made their inherent ranged weaknesses so absolutely minute, that other classes cannot compare. Now add on top of all this that the classes that these sorcs are fight STILL have their inherent weaknesses that are easily exploited with the amount of control allowed with the hybrid spec. That right there is the essence of the problem and why it's not a L2P problem. Players insist that marauders take more skill because of the sheer inefficiency of their class design and glaring weaknesses that have to be overcome in order to simply compete on an average level. It makes absolutely horrid balance when the efficiency of a class is so completely far and above other classes that it becomes detrimental to pvp. Yet so many people ignore this point and just tell people to play better. That would be as ludicrous as me expecting you win a drag race vs a Ferrari in a station wagon, because you have better driving skills.

Tank you guys for the responses. Vember you make a very good point. If I as a melee class have so much trouble getting to you through all your ranged cc, there is no absolutely no excuse for you to put out more dmg than I do in melee range. Especially when you can kite me in the middle of an attack sequence.

Lol bio was responding to tumri.

No problem Tumri, I just see posts like this all the time and they get belittled so quickly. I love melee classes and hate the fact that they have been so blatantly neutered. I'm posting the same thing in the Sith Warrior forums in hopes that others will see that their not just imagining things. The situation has truly become just THAT bad. Keep up the good work man

Hey there all, just wanted comment on here real quick to address a very important issue that has to deal with something that has been on my mind for years. You see it's not just this mmo but ALL recent mmos in the last couple of years have taken to the disturbing trend of gimping melee severely while completely overpowering casters. Now I have a few theories as to why this is, but that's for a different topic For now though I would like you to take note of the mechanics that are currently stacked against melee classes. 1.Boss Aoes: SWTOR seems to have taken a page right out of other MMOs and decided that it would be a great idea to give bosses and mobs a TON of aoe dmg that destroys melee. The biggest problem with this is that a melee toon has to stop any and all attacks in order to vacate the aoe and not die. There is no such mechanic that stops ranged classes to that effect. No matter what, unless there is some giant map wide stun (which does not exist) they can keep on dpsing/healing with little to no incident, while melee is busy running around doing nothing except losing health rapidly. It would be the equivalent of a Boss firing off an aoe that only affected casters, doing 1k points of dmg every time they tried to attack/cast and silenced them as well. I have yet to see such a spell exist. Frankly I hope I never do because it would be complete overkill. So why then must melee suffer similar effects on an almost daily basis? 2.Little to no self healing: Another disturbing trend is the belief that giving melee classes (especially tanks) a way to recover health during a fight would lead to complete unbalance. So in response most developers have given said classes extremely weak/situational healing abilities or nothing at all. Now there would be no problem with this line of thinking if melee classes had such phenomenal defenses or dps that enemies dies quickly enough so no real heals are required save for being outnumbered or chaining more too many mobs. But sadly such balance does not exist. Often times the most high damaging attacks COMPLETELY ignore melee's armor and shreds the poor defender to pieces. In essence it turns melee classes into an armorless attacker with no sustainable/reliable way to mitigate damage. 3.Very small mitigation chances/ "Heavy Armor, High AC" Now just like healing, since melee classes are perceived to be just too tough with their higher armor (that in reality doesn't stop the most common types of high dmg) developers have given melee character a very small percentage/proc based mitigation mechanic. This would be a great idea if the dmg that came through was mitigated properly. But sadly, such is not the case. Even the damage that makes it through the procs, often times are high enough to put serious dents in a would be melee character's health. So what you are left with is a character with "Heavy armor / AC" that doesn't stop most incoming dmg, with poor proc based mitigation that barely chisels down any of the unmolested incoming DPS. 4. Long cool downs: Basically refer to points 2-4. For the same reasons developers have made CDs for melee classes entirely too long. CD's that should be on a one minute timer are on three. I'm looking at you Saber Ward 5.CC, CC,CC / Physical location (proximity of attack): In a game filled with heavy ranged DPS, it is hard enough just REACHING your objective as melee and applying constant dmg, so the thing I find most infuriating is the constant slows and stuns. They are completely unnecessary and I would go as far to say that melee classes should be all but immune to them, except for the odd stun or two. The reason being is that stun locking/perma slowing melee is DOUBLE PUNISHMENT. Unlike ranged characters, melee has to actually get to its target and CONTINUE to stay on their target within a very short distance in order to do any kind of dmg. So they already start off with a major disadvantage. Making it so atrociously easy to just get out of a melee characters range or stop them cold while continuing to DPS them with high dmg. This inexcusable and bad game design, has been copied from mmo to mmo. Gap closers loose all their worth, when someone can just stun/kite you right after you use it, especially in a pvp environment. Now take a look at everything I listed above. Ranged classes face no such obstacles. In most cases ranged classes have enough healing, dmg, cc, and mitigation to exotic dmg that their realistic armor class is MUCH higher than that of melee classes. Their perceived weakness of "light armor / light AC" is easily overcome with a few talents and base powers, creating dominating force with very few weaknesses and little risk vs. gain. I'd like to thank you all very much for taking the time to read this post, and wish you wonderful day. -Drega

Hey there all, just wanted comment on here real quick to address a very important issue that has to deal with the original poster's findings. You see it's not just this mmo but ALL recent mmos in the last couple of years have taken to the disturbing trend of gimping melee severely while completely overpowering casters. Now I have a few theories as to why this is, but that's for a different topic For now though I would like you to take note of the mechanics that are currently stacked against melee classes. 1.Boss Aoes: SWTOR seems to have taken a page right out of other MMOs and decided that it would be a great idea to give bosses and mobs a TON of aoe dmg that destroys melee. The biggest problem with this is that a melee toon has to stop any and all attacks in order to vacate the aoe and not die. There is no such mechanic that stops ranged classes to that effect. No matter what, unless there is some giant map wide stun (which does not exist) they can keep on dpsing/healing with little to no incident, while melee is busy running around doing nothing except lose health rapidly. I would be the equivalent of a Boss firing off an aoe that only affected casters, doing 1k points of dmg every time they tried to attack/cast and silenced them as well. I have yet to see such a spell exist. Frankly I hope I never do because it would be complete overkill. So why then must melee suffer similar effects on an almost daily basis? 2.Little to no self healing: Another disturbing trend is the belief that giving melee classes (especially tanks) a way to recover health during a fight would lead to complete unbalance. So in response most developers have given said classes extremely weak/situational healing abilities or nothing at all. Now there would be no problem with this line of thinking if melee classes had such phenomenal defenses or dps that enemies dies quickly enough so no real heals are required save for being outnumbered or chaining more too many mobs. But sadly such balance does not exist. Often times the most high damaging attacks COMPLETELY ignore melee's armor and shreds the poor defender to pieces. In essence it turns melee classes into an armorless attacker with no sustainable/reliable way to mitigate damage. 3.Very small mitigation chances/ "Heavy Armor, High AC" Now just like healing, since melee classes are perceived to be just too tough with their higher armor (that in reality doesn't stop the most common types of high dmg) developers have given melee character a very small percentage/proc based mitigation mechanic. This would be a great idea if the dmg that came through was mitigated properly. But sadly, such is not the case. Even the damage that makes it through the procs, often times are high enough to put serious dents in a would be melee character's health. So what you are left with is a character with "Heavy armor / AC" that doesn't stop most incoming dmg, with poor proc based mitigation that barely chisels down any of the unmolested incoming DPS. 4. Long cool downs: Basically refer to points 2-4. For the same reasons developers have made CDs for melee classes entirely too long. CD's that should be on a one minute timer are on three. I'm looking at you Saber Ward 5.CC, CC,CC / Physical location (proximity of attack): In a game filled with heavy ranged DPS, it is hard enough just REACHING your objective as melee and applying constant dmg, so the thing I find most infuriating is the constant slows and stuns. They are completely unnecessary and I would go as far to say that melee classes should be all but immune to them, except for the odd stun or two. The reason being is that stun locking/perma slowing melee is DOUBLE PUNISHMENT. Unlike ranged characters, melee has to actually get to its target and CONTINUE to stay on their target within a very short distance in order to do any kind of dmg. So they already start off with a major disadvantage. Making it so atrociously easy to just get out of a melee characters range or stop them cold while continuing to DPS them with high dmg. This inexcusable and bad game design, has been copied from mmo to mmo. Gap closers loose all their worth, when someone can just stun/kite you right after you use it, especially in a pvp environment. Now take a look at everything I listed above. Ranged classes face no such obstacles. In most cases ranged classes have enough healing, dmg, cc, and mitigation to exotic dmg that their realistic armor class is MUCH higher than that of melee classes. Their perceived weakness of "light armor / light AC" is easily overcome with a few talents and base powers, creating dominating force with very few weaknesses and little risk vs. gain. The Hybrid Sorc Spec that the OP speaks of is the epitome of this idea. Hence why he is asking for a change to be made. I'd like to thank you all very much for taking the time to read this post, and wish you wonderful day. -Drega

I'm not sure you even read my post before deciding it was another QQ. Because all your basically saying is a tank is defined: as a class that cannot do anything for themselves and must rely on other classes for everything. That right there is the problem. This is why people are complaining. With cooldowns and armor considered Juggs BARELY take less dmg than everyone else. Especially when compared to assassins and powertechs. Leaving juggs with nothing but crappy dmg, awful utility, and no way to heal themselves a little to take the pressure off the healer. Whether it be in pve or pvp you are effectively a slow fat kid with a nerf bat in a gun fight. And i'm sorry if you don't understand but dmg = dead bodies that can't hit back = the best form of mitigation. Tanks don't have to be solo LEGENDS but they should at least be able to take on NORMAL mobs without having to stop and rage heal every single time unless they blow their cds. The reason they can't do that now is because their dmg is too low and heavy armor does not add enough mitigation to fill in the gap. The other TANK classes in the game do NOT have such a problem. That is the reality and that is why people are voicing their opinion. I wanted to play a jugg because the name made them sound like one tough son of a gun who could dish it out and take it...and right now they do neither.

You know I usually don't reply to post on forums, in fact this is my first post ever now that I think about it! But I feel something very important needs to be said here. When it comes to tanking in every single MMO, it's not mitigation or hp levels that are king, it ALWAYS comes down to DPS and self heals. So many developers gimp their tanks horribly by not following this rule, because of some fear they will become overpowered. No matter how much dmg resistance you get, unless it's something like 95% resistance to everything, low dmg will always get a tank killed. For example if you are on your jugg and jump into a lvl 40 mob of three, they will tear your head off and leave you in severe need of a heal afterwards DESPITE your gear. Now why is that? Simple, It's because jugg mitigation is not balanced with their dmg output. It takes Juggs WAY too long to kill mobs and as a result, more enemies are still alive to throw tons of dmg your way while you are still working on that first droid you force charged. Currently heavy armor does NOT offer sufficient mitigation to match the low dmg juggs put out, and with a complete lack of a competent heal they are even more squishy. You can even apply this to a group situation...try grouping up with a squad who does low dmg and run a flashpoint. Watch how much of a headache it is for the healer to keep you alive. THAT is inexcusable for class that's supposed to be in "heavy armor". So basically what i am saying here, is that despite what people say, tanks must have very good dps for their own survival. Right now Juggernauts completely lack the mitigation and self healing abilities to compensate for their low dmg. It's why I deleted mine. It has nothing to do with skill, it's just bad class design.