Hirokinae
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Posts posted by Hirokinae
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http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZMsMZfhrbzGhM.1
Why not this?
The 3% endurance does zero for actual dps. While Parralactic Combat Stims has the potential to give you more ammo for more Ion Pulse spam.
Sweltering heat I feel is just a good utility for trash mobs.
I guess the 3% endurance is just useless imo.
I love this spec though, I wish we had an aggro dump ability though.
You're very right. In order to absolutely maximize damage, parallectic combat stims would be an increase. Essentially, the 4 points in the first 3 teirs of assault are preference points. I choose the endurance for the extra survivability and found that parallectic stims was beneficial but only affects for 3 bosses. For my group I end up dps offtanking most of the time so I choose the extra survivability.
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First of all thanks for all the informations and the work you're doing Hirokinae, reading your posts is a real pleasure for the rest of the DPS vanguards.
Recently I've been wondering more or less where the raw dps of the vanguard lies, in order to have a full picture and compare it with the rest of the dps classes. So looking at your little experiment in page 7, where you calculated the damage along 150 seconds for the assault spec, we can derive the dps 131000/150 = 873 dps. Plasma cell wasn't included in that calculation but i remember reading in another post of yours that it does 1200 damage every 6 seconds which is 200dps more. So adding the two number together we have that an assault vanguard full rakata does 1073 dps (in the ideal case where no hammershots where necessary, which is never possible).
This number seems rather low when you compare it with the average dps for scoundrels/hybrid sages which is know to be around 1300/1400. Are we that low in comparison with other classes?
I apologize for my late reply, been very busy lately. You had a very good idea in trying to calculate the rough dps output for vanguards, however i'd like to note that my little comparison was simply to compare one spec vs. another. You had a great idea in trying to use it to get a rough dps estimate, but there are several factors which are not included which would boost the dps numbers significantly. First and more important are crits. Second are cooldowns. Our relics/battlefocus are huge dps increases if timed right. It non-crit values might be lower as well because of course, you do have to rotate hammershot in a practical rotation in order to keep ammo values above 60%. But essentially crits are a huge part of our dps, especially considering that most of our main abilities have a 30% increased crit damage buff on top of our surge.
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For all of you Vanguards out there, what DPS set should we go once we start getting Rakata tokens?
The dps set for troopers is combat tech, which is a HUGE boost to our dps. On top of that, i'd like to know that it is best for dps to pick up 4 pieces of rakata, plus the eliminator boots because it has more aim than the rakata boots.
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Yes, essentially all you would need to kill any boss in the whole world is an ops group of 25 vanguards. We should commence rerolling immediately.
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Here is a spec I have been playing around with.
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hRhrdMboMZMsZfhboz.1
Close range burst is awesome:
Been starting with Incen Round, followed by HIB and SS.
Fill with some Ion Bursts.
Chill in Plasma cell.
Try it out and let me know what you think. I have been playing around with builds and I find not having Charge sucks. So I built a build and been having a blast with it in warzones. Huttball without charge is no fun at all.
^^. Thank you for the reply. To be honest, I feel that the build simply does not have much damage potential. You do not have ionic accelerator, which is probably the biggest reason to be assault, and the ammo consumption in the spec would be rather steep. I think you'd end up using hammer shot a lot more than you'd like because you lack the ammo regen from high impact bolt, or high energy cell from tactics. For pve dps, I would probably shy away. For pvp utility, it might be ok, but more of a tanky build.
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as an assault vanguard,I can tell you that sorcs are my FAVORITE target. Your general squishiness makes me squirm whenever I see one with low hp, and I tend to zoom in on them.
The assault burst is crazy because one of our main abilities: Assault Plastique, has a delay on damage. Meaning when we use it, it sticks onto you for about 3 seconds BEFORE it blows up, and hits very hard. On top of that, I can get High-Impact bolt crits of upwards to 4-5k with my cooldowns. So you can imagine, if I can get an Incendiary Round dot ticks, + plasma round ticks + a High impact bolt, followed by Assault plastique blowing up into a stockstrike, thats a lot of damage.
Best counter, would be to survive the initial burst. Without our cooldowns, we dont hit as hard, and rely on HIB procs to dish out the real pain. Keep your distance, and use your cc right off the bat if you see us pop any cooldown. We have our relic, adrenal, and Battle Focus (increases crit by 25%), so if you see those pop, cc right off the bat, get away as fast as possible, and while we're chasing you, if you see us pop our trinket, follow with a whirlwind.
Dont ever try to stand toe to toe with a vanguard, you're in light armor, and they're in heavy. We have keep us slowed and pillar hump us all day and there wont be much we can do.
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Static field DOES stack with other accuracy reducing effects. I dont think bioware fully intended for this, but ALL ABILITIES stack on top of each other. So sunder armor stacks, any accuracy debuffs (esp. the guardians' 10% debuff) stacks, even the commando's grav round applications stack, meaning having 3-4 commandos in the same group is optimal for dps since they can ALL stack their grav rounds and ALL share the damage boost they get from it. We had 3 commandos in our group at once point, and they pointed out that their demo rounds were critting for about 8-9k on some of the bosses. Absolutely silly. =P
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For the most we dont need CC. Try picking up 2 points in sweltering heat and kite mobs around if you're having trouble. Utilize your interrupts to mitigate damage, and for the most part, use elara dorne if you're finding it too difficult. We are probably the most mobile class in the game as far as damage goes, so utilize it as much as you can.
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*nods* Understood. Dropping points into defense skills won't up your DPS meter, but it can help keep it from zeroing out via death.
Haha i'm just having a little bit of fun. =) Like i said, valid points from you and helping out healers is always a plus. For the most part, however I find that careful use of defensive cooldowns and avoidance of mechanics saves my butt a lot more than a couple of talent points, so I try to maximize my dps. Essentially my view is, the faster things die, the less damage the healers have to heal through.
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I've been able to hit a 5k HIB several times with the 8/8/25 build, usually on squishier targets but occasionally on the battlemaster as well. Its mostly a pve spec, but it absolutely maximizes HIB as much as possible, and I wear pve rakata for the 4piece, while stacking pvp gear for the rest. My expertise is actually pretty low at around 400, but having the 8% bonus damage to high impact bolt REALLY helps, and you're almost guaranteed a 5k hit with an adrenal, the power trinket, and your Battle Focus
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Honestly, I'd actually go with Power Armor for sure if you want a bit more on the defense end. That's delicious flat mitigation right there, and IMHO the best two points for defensive measures you can spend.
The remaining point's an interesting thought, and honestly depends on what you want.
Gut's going to chew on your ammo consumption a bit. You've got some not-ammo-eating options to add a little bite, though.
Defensively, you can go 6/10/25 and use Static Field if nobody else is going to be spamming it on the mob (like another Vanguard). The mob's -2% damage for 15 seconds that way, so you're debuffing it for the tank- even if you don't fully talent it, that's still helpful. You could keep one point in Steely Resolve and only have a 6% Aim hit, too.
Alternatively, you could splash a point into Tactical Tools or Burnout- TT helps you rotate Pulse Cannon more often into your rotation (it's good for dealing even single-target elemental damage after all), Burnout gives you a small amount of crit and a little extra oomph towards the end with your plasma/Inc. Round DoT's.
you are entirely correct, and variations of this spec to provide utility/survivability are entirely possible. However, please understand that it will not satisfy the e-peen hogging pure dps loving elitist lovers who want to see huge numbers and pad the dps meters while trying to rank on galaxy of logs. I mean...
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With the 8/8/25 spec would it be worth it to go 5/11/25 dropping the 9% Aim and picking up Power Armor and Gut? Power Armor may help out the healers a bit, but can Gut make up for the 9% Aim loss?
I would say not. The spec rotates around maximizing HIB damage, and as it is, is very ammo intensive. Gut does not have very much synergy with the spec, and losing the 9% aim equates to about a 4% damage loss across the board. From my experience with trying out a similar spec with both gut and incendiary round, the ammo consumption from trying to keep up both dots at the same time was absolutely devastating. You end up falling below the optimal recharge point just from IR + GUT + HIB and then a stockstrike, not to mention you're killing your chances of proccing HIB by having to use an extra GCD on gut every 15 seconds. The reason I believe the 8/8/25 works well is because it relies on HIB to regen ammo, otherwise you're stuck using hammershot alot more than you'd like.
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http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#8010MZMsr0RrcoZbIbrzh.1
so ive been using this spec for pvp and ive been consistently topping damage charts in pvp (i know its not pve) with around 280-300k dmg. This has been the most successful pure dps spec ive used and seen because of the fact i have 2 solid dots on constantly. side note im using high energy cell for the ammo regen. I also have a chance of not only regening my HIB cooldown with stock strike but i also get the chance to refresh the cd of stockstrike and making it free. Now you can imagine the few times ive had successful chains of HIB, stock, ion, HIB, stock etc..... I understand i lose the extra dot from Plasma cell but i get so much damage out if it that its nuts. I have ammo regening so much and fast i never really have issues unless i start spamming ion pulse. I know superheated plasma is a wasted skill point but it allows for the 30% increased HIB. I guess i really want to know if you think its viable for pve. Ive done HM 8 man EV and Karaggas on norm with no issues but i really wanna max my dmg
I know with no combat logs its hard to min max, but i was just wondering what people thought of itIts certainly a very interesting spec, and i've looked at variations of this myself. One thing is for certain: the ammo consumption of this spec is VERY VERY friendly, with you almost never having to use ion pulse. I'm not sure its the best in pvp, because dot damage isn't really what you want. Rather I would think its a more pve oriented spec. For a comparison, I do pvp with the 8/8/25 spec although I dont see it as a pvp spec, and as it stands (I really hope noone takes this the wrong way, I am being honest and do not wish to inflate my own e-peen =P) I have yet to meet any vanguard who can beat me in damage, and very rarely am I beaten in damage by other classes. I average around 300-500k damage depending on the warzone, with 300k being the low end if I am stuck guarding a turret etc.
You would have to compare what you gain vs. what you're losing.
A) The main problem I see with this spec, is that you have alot of "wasted" talent points. 3 points gone in superheated plasma, deguass, combat stims, etc. All of which are good for utility, but almost completely useless for PVE dps purposes.
B) We are also losing 9% base damage from Rain of fire, 30% crit damage from Asault Trooper.
C) The biggest thing we lose is our plasma cell, which for me does around 1300 damage every 6 seconds. This is a huge dps loss as you can imagine.
D) Loss of 9% aim AND 6% elemental damage, which as you can imagine is not very nice.
Now what do we gain?
1) We gain a chance to insta crit our HIB, but at the cost of it hitting for much less, although this synergizes very well with ionic accelerator
2) We now have both Gut AND incendiary round. This is a huge plus as long as you remember to keep it up at 100% uptime. With the ammo friendliness of the spec, I would imagine that it wouldn't be hard to keep up both dots either.
3) Ammo friendliness. Essentially the biggest perk of this spec is that its probably the most ammo friendly spec out there. I would imagine that you would almost never have to hammershot as high energy cell + free stockstrikes + free HIB means you can sit and spam ion pulse forever.
Conclusion:
Its an interesting spec, but as far as raw damage, I feel it falls way too far behind. Being able to crit high impact bolt more is certainly nice, but remember that raid buffed, you can reach almost 40% crit anyways, which further diminishes the usefulness of a garunteed crit, especially if you're critting for much less. I'm too lazy to do math atm, but on average, you would get about an extra crit every 30 seconds from stockstrike, and an extra crit every minute from Gut. so about 3 extra crits every minute on average. I'm sure you'll understand that its very underwhelming, especially since you're losing about 13% base damage on HIB, on top of 30% crit damage.
Being able to use Gut is amazing, but pound for pound, Gut simply falls far behind plasma cell, which does more damage, doesn't cut a GCD, and costs no ammo/effort to keep up.
All of that said, I think its a very intriguing spec, and am probably going to try it out to get a feel for it. I WISH WISH WISH, there was a combat log to track these things, but as it is, we can only go by trial and error, and good ol' pen/paper napkin math. Thank you for your insight, and I hope my opinions help you to solidify your own ideas.
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Thanks for getting back to me so quick. Do you think we will get nerfed? I hope not by much lol I never want to go back to my JK guardian..... lol
There is currently no reason to believe that vanguards will be receiving nerfs. We do not have *glaring* issues such as the scoundrel burst, that need to be addressed. If our raid dps is doing well, it is because of the ingenuity of the many vanguards like those in this thread and on sithwarrior that are promoting healthy discussion of our class.
If anything, I would think tactics would need a slight buff, or they need a metric system to gauge the dps of our different specs. All in due time.
In the meantime, you can rest easy knowing that we are definitely not going to be pigeon-holed into a "tank only" class with the kind of numbers a decent vanguard can put out.
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http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=161399
I've got a little dps vanguard thread going with plenty of info. I can also answer any questions you might have there. Hope this helps.
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@Hiro. Well I just hit 50 and I will say this guide is the reason I chose vanguard for dps over commando. I'm currently gearing up to use this spec. What would you say is the stat priority for this spec?
Congrats on 50! Currently I follow the stat priority.
AIM > Accuracy 100% > POWER > CRIT > SURGE > ACCURACY
You'll want at least 100% Accuracy, and surge; especially with the impending nerfs, is our absolute worst stat according to the spreadsheet found on http://www.sithwarrior.com.
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Ive used every spec there is avail. I did really well using Ironfist for a long time, but i gotta say nothing compares to the Carolina parakeet spec. Not only is your dmg really good with the nonstop Hib procs you have the tank survivabilty to go with it. Im using the BM combat tech set, and theres no one i cannot dominate with this build. All out assault was good dmg but the survivabilty wasnt great.
thank you for the input, however as I pointed out in the first part of the thread, I see this as a predominately PVE dps build. For pvp, the iron fist and parakeet could probably be better specs, and in general a 31 assault build would probably be better because of the burst.
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To sum it up, burst them down as fast as possible, stun while they've popped their defensive cooldowns, and kite them within their "deadzone". Marauders are generally very easy to kill because with our 100% chance to slow with ion pulse talent, we're the best class suited to kiting them provided we dont let them get snares on us. Dont let them to get too close to hit, and dont move away too far to get leaped.
Another tip is to always use neural surge first. People have a habit of immedietely using their trinket on the first stun, and having them burn it on neural surge and gettin a free cryo is always nice.
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Looks like the hybrid spec uses Ion Pulse a lot more, which imposes a higher reliance on being in close range to your target. In a PvP environment this is often not possible to maintain, especially if your priorities are not to maximize damage but to further objectives, stay within guarding range etc. For instance, what do you use when you are 10m+ from your target and you've already used IR + HIB once? The situation presents itself quite often in my experience.
Conversely, are you forced to use AP once in range? I think an interesting comparison would be the pure vs hybrid builds using the same Ion Pulse reliant rotation that attempts to maximize damage through HIB. Then we'd know what the cost for purely the option to have AP is and learn also whether the pure build should regulate its use of AP more depending on range.
I'd like to note that this comparison was made with purely PVE in mind, as i believe the assault plastique spec trumps the hybrid for pvp burst purposes without a doubt.
On a second note, the hybrid spec DOES focus on maximizing HIB damage as much as possible, and is reliant on having HIB procs to make up for the loss of assault plastique.
I'm not sure about your second question though. Both specs generally use the same rotation, except the AP one has assault plastique used on cooldown, so if you were to compare the two builds with assault plastique as a backburner, it'd be almost the same exact rotation except the 4/6/31 would have lower numbers overall because you dont have the talent points the hybrid gets to pick up.
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Ah, i'd like to note to everyone that this is strictly a PVE RAIDING spec, as i believe the 4/6/31 or variations with assault plastique are much stronger for pvp, and would definitely do a variation of the "iron fist" if i were to pvp. So remember, this spec is a PVE, and not a PVP spec, meaning as dps, our survivability comes from following mechanics, and having decent healers, so we're worried about absolutely maximizing our dps.
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tech attacks aren't seperated into "ranged" and "melee" catagories... Just follow what the poster above me said and look at your skill list. It will tell you which abilities are tech and which are not. It will improve all "tech" abilities...
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Very worth it, especially for the minimal point investment. Almost all of our attacks are tech, and the only ones that aren't are
hammershot
High Impact bolt
Full Auto (should never be using this as a vanguard anyways)
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I feel like people are consistently forgetting to mention pulse cannon as a primary damage component in the tactics dps rotation. With the talent Tactical Tools reducing it's cooldown, Pulse Generator greatly increasing it's damage and Tactics' superior ammo regeneration, plasma cannon becomes the hardest hitting damage ability. If you are comparing the damage between tactics and assault and not accounting for plasma cannon in the tactics rotation, then the comparison is invalid. Also, the channeled portion of plasma cannon is of no concern in an OPS raiding environment. Yes, alot of the fights are very movement heavy, but I have found throwing in plasma cannon when off cooldown to be no problem what so ever. Of course this debate will continue until combat logs are made available, but I feel tactics puts out massive damage in a raid environment. However, this is not conclusive by any means, and I look forward to combat logs being made available in order to have concrete evidence about the damage capability between the specs.
Very valid point. You can add that to the list of tactics bonuses. with a 3sec channel, my pulse cannon can average to around 1800damage per GCD, definitely nothing to scoff at. I certainly do not wish to imply that tactics isn't viable. It is very viable, and the difference in damage between the two specs is probably not too far off. I would like to note that I am only saying that when i look at all of the pros/cons of assault vs tactics, to me it "seems" that assault edges out tactics, though by no mean am I absolutely right. Healthy discussion of the topic is good, and as we gather more information, and people like you add more layers to the topic, we can begin to form a more clear, concise picture.
I know with no combat logs its hard to min max, but i was just wondering what people thought of it
Very strong Vanguard dps hybrid
in Vanguard / Powertech
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HIB should be used on cooldown, proc or not. =)