Belkiratwo
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Posts posted by Belkiratwo
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Once again good sir I disagree, in part. I agree that the economy is not matured. I agree that in a fully matured one any tweaks would be more heavily researched, planned, and foreseeable.
I disagree because of what I stated vis-a-vis gold farmers and sellers. Nerf had to happen.
Also, "The concept that slicing was a "free money printing press" is a misnomer and in itself a logical fallacy. "
Clicking a button and getting more back is printing money. no effort - no risk - click button make money.
Spending money for mats (either AH or button for gathering mission), then more mats, then making something and selling it - might bring a profit - but is time intensive.. and not a guarantee on profit.
Fair enough, however as you concede the point about market maturation then I would like to present the point that in a Mature market the opportunity cost would have dictated whether or not slicing was a "free money" button.
The largest complaint seems to be tied into the fact that someone at lvl 20 had access to this resource (which i don't agree with, bw dropped the ball here, but that isn't the point). At level 20 slicing has the perception of exactly this, "free money". Why would you spent 30 minute questing to pay for skills and a mount when you can just send out your companions?
What we don't know is whether or not this same perception would have existed if it had been allowed to continue as it was.
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you are correct good sir - BUT to properly study a market to make tweaks, especially for game balance - one must remove the printing press which will skew your results - plus attract gold farmers!
Is slicing fixed? No.
Is it where it needs to be? No.
but BW HAD to get rid of gold farmable printing press of press button make money.
Absolute, in an open market this would make sense.
However due to limitations both aritificial and tangible in an MMO the rules don't quite apply and things can be treated on a much more fundamental level.
The concept that slicing was a "free money printing press" is a misnomer and in itself a logical fallacy.
You are correct in asserting that having a hard cap on how much slicing can make doesn't take into consideration that those people also have other professions.
BUT
Until the market was allowed to mature it is impossible to determine what combination of professions would yield the highest return on investment.
Not only that but you have to take the fact that the slicing cap has all companions operating all the time which leaves no spare time to run those other professions. Granted you can gather ~2-3M as stated if you use a combination of slicing and manual farming however to hit the cap all companions must deployed on slicing missions all the time.
Whether or not the nerf was justified in a fully matured economy we will never know. What we do know now is that the current economy has taken a huge hit in terms of volume of sales and that there has been no player observable deflation of products.
I'll try and clean up my GTN spreadsheet a bit before I open source it but what I have noticed in the last week is a small/moderate increase of almost all items across the board with significant increase in mission skills (22-50% in some cases) while a noticeable decline in the price of slicing missions.
I also suspect that there were a lot of people that were using slicing to fund their other professions which is also causing the sharp incline in price. This coupled with the fact that more players are reaching level cap and some products are actually seeing an increase in demand.
This may be different on other servers.
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Read: http://wow.joystiq.com/category/gold-capped/
You'll learn many things including how virtual economies like in a game behave like real economies do - you know why - the people in the economies. The difference is the rule-set on them.
Slicing is like printing money = little time invested and $$$ created. Anything else is far more time consuming - less ROI in regards to time spent. The more of something there is the less it is worth.
You keep ignoring basic economic principles like NORMALIZATION.
2 week old economy yet people want to treat it like it is an established market.
All crying about "inflation" in an non-normalized market is nothing but pure rhetoric.
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I believe that this thread was continued as amongst the general rable there is some really good feedback.
I've read this thread from start to finish, ever single comment and while 95% of them are the usual forum posts of complaints with no pathway to resolution there is still some worthwhile information.
The general consensus from the more intelligible posts seem to repeat the same points:
1. Economically Slicing was viable in it's previous state however it should have been adjusted in some way to counter the early level advantage
2. BW has made a change to Slicing that doesn't really follow rational or logical thought processes that the general community can agree on; whether the information BW is privy too actually supports this change we'll never know
3. Two weeks into a game is too soon to make such a drastic decision.
I think it is important to continue this discussion but it is also important to continue to provide constructive feedback instead of destructive criticism.
If BW had allowed the time for server populations to mature it may have been different however all evidence points to the fact that this was a PR move to retain subscriptions after 30 day free pass which is really a shame.
I can understand the decision from a marketing standpoint but from a gamer and economist standpoint the nerf makes absolutely zero sense.
I would like to hear some BW feedback on the reasoning behind the change.
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You don't get hers. Slicing may have a static level of income, but its, like she said, a money printing button. There is no physical limit to the money you can introduce with it. You simply have to create more characters, more accounts, more gold farmers. Inflation will never stop when players control a free money button. That is why no MMO has ever had one, and Bioware had to stop this one.
My point was what you call "inflation" i call normalization and once the economy normalized around a level 50 player base the entire economy will shift and slicing would become obsolete as other sources of income become more profitable.
I completely understand the concept of a "print money" button but when that button can only produce a set amount no matter what then why would it be worth investment if there are other areas of growth that have a much higher potential for return?
Slicing only appears to be a "print money" button now because there is no market for:
- augments
- high end crafted items
- high end materials
- expensive vanity items
- mods/ship items
- companion items
The current market population is almost exclusively leveling characters and the initial wave of level 50's that are more than likely the foundation of the initial wave of raiders.
My whole point is that the market isn't MATURE enough at this point to make such a rash decision and all economic theory points to an eventual decline in the value of slicing as most people view it.
edit: i'll grant that BW has access to the actual statistics and my conclusions are based on personal observation but I just find it highly unlikely that 2 weeks could be enough time to determine the overall effect slicing in it's previous state would have had.
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I agree with this. There are ways to make money besides slicing, but they involve PVP or flashpoints or the AH and crafting. Slicing was a nice way to get out of those things if you don't like them. But it was easily exploitable in a game-ruining sort of way.
I think the solution is twofold: make slicing *slightly* profitable for casual players while somehow restricting it from being exploited.
Or, make questing/grinding more profitable.
Or make vendor stuff (training/speeders/etc.) cheaper.
Or some combination of all that.
But the exploitative opportunity of slicing had to go.
I still agree with you though, the game is supposed to be fun for a variety of playstyles. I hope BW can meet this need in further enhancements.
Stick with us!!
Slicing would just be a large INITIAL source of liquidity in the market. As stated above, the growth of the economy due to slicing would plateau and overtime the diversity of the market as more people reach bother higher player and crafting levels would lead to the eventual decline of slicing as a driving force.
In a mature market slicing would make up a small percentage of the overall liquidity and due to the ceiling of growth possible on slicing it would most likely become the least profitable overtime.
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i was a slicer myself (still haven't dropped the skill, i think we'll see the nerf partially rescinded), and it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that the massive amounts of currency that slicing enabled people to make was hurtful.
rate limiting lockbox missions would have nipped remote mission grinders in the bud, limited the amount of currency inflation, and kept slicing an overall profitable skill. 71% was too much, it could have done with 40-50%.
A slight nerf may have been welcome but overtime inflation would have done the exact same thing to slicing that this nerf has; made it redundant.
Once the cost of crafting materials has matured (inflated) then it becomes more profitable to craft and run gathering professions then it would be to run slicing lockbox missions.
At that point point in the economic maturation Slicing would have become and augment based profession as that maturity of both severs in player numbers and character levels would ensure that the market existed.
What this nerf does is force slicing into an "Augment" only profession where there is 0 market for augments because the game is only 2 weeks old.
People just don't understand that the lockboxes profit margin has 0 growth ever. There is an artificial cap of money that can be made each day from lockboxes and that cap could never be exceeded. Yes there is a light margin based on crit% but even if you crit 100% of every lockbox mission you ever sent your companions out on then that would be the absolute ceiling and it could never be excede, not at level 50, not a year from now, not ever.
There exists no ceiling for any other crafting or gathering profession. The only thing that dictates how much profit you can make is how well you market your product and how many units you can move.
edit: and this is why if allowed to mature the market would have edged out slicing eventually, it's simple *********** economics. like grade 10 ****.
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I am not sure of exactly how you're making money, outside of the world nodes. But other gathering professions have those too. So what you're saying is that even though Salvaging and Arch have world nodes AND missions that give them things, it's okay that Slicing only has world nodes and missions that take away things? That makes no sense. And on my server, there is basically no market for augments. Purple augments of all level ranges are selling for 100-1k...That is WAY less than the cost of the mission...
I saved all the crafting missions i found while leveling slicing as well as bought out hundreds of them.
500% increase in price is netting me a nice profit for now.
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this will probably get buried 130+ pages in, but the real solution here would have been to limit the rate at which lockbox missions spawned into the available mission list. that way, it would have kept each individual slicing mission profitable, while still limiting the overall influx of credits into the economy.
The real solution would have been to let the economy mature and not make decisions based on a 2 week old market.
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I gotta call garbage on this thread. Reads like somebody wants to arrange some price fixing? A good crafter studies their market, knows when they can get more and when the market is saturated, so they have to lower their profit margin.
Play it like the game that it is.
This exactly.
I was posting purple 340 Diplomacy missions in trade for 35k last night and people just kept laughing at me and telling me I was ripping people off.
After an hour I had sold 4.
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The people who are buying my "crafted shi*t" were the leveling scene. People who haven't hit level 50, who were gearing up their character. FYI, the leveling scene is much bigger than the level 50 scene right now. You don't automatically hit level 50 when you start the game. Everyone starts at level 1 and level up. The people who buy mods are the ones with a guild or friends who try to be as geared as possible doing FPs with their friends.
Get your head out of your ***.
No, they were leveling slicers... you know; the people with credits to spare. Now they'll be saving money for 50 instead of wasting it on minor upgrades.
I was one of those people buying **** from the GTN. Now at level 26 sitting on 276k CR i'll be waiting to 50 before I think of buying anything else.
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What are your thoughts on this... Personally, when I play an MMO i want to make the most bad *** character possible.. and a female character just doesn't fit that role for me. /Discuss
I'm one of those players that could care less about the gender of the toon I am controlling.
Some people RP, some don't.
99% of the time I choose whatever is default.
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Basically if slicing was left alone it would have fixed itself.
Why spend 2k to send a companion out 30 min for 4k profit when thanks to inflation that level 200 underground metal now sells for 8k.
Inflations, higher returns on vendor trash at higher levels, more rewards from questing at later levels, these all would balance out the early advantage of slicing.
Is 400 slicing ridiculously overpowered at level 20 for generating money? yep.
Is it at level 40? 50? not so much.
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The reason people believe that slicing is broken is that the amount of money it generated at this point in time far exceeded the amount that could be generated with other professions.
At the start of the game the only way for money to enter the economy is through questing, vendoring items and slicing. The GTN will be virtually empty and there just doesn't exist a ton of available cash stimulate an economy similar to that of WoW which is well established.
Over time, as more money is introduced into the economy you start to see inflation of the price of goods. This means that those crafting items you're currently selling for 350-500 credits will start to sell for more and more. This has already started to happen as the epic crafting materials on my server were selling for 250-400cr the first week and are now over 1500-2500 each and have been consistently for the last several days.
Basically if you had just left crafting alone it would have killed itself anyways. Now what happens is you have a ton of people that chose to slice that are going to have a massive headstart in terms of credits and materials.
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Simple question i really don't understand the answer too.
You're given three skills. Only one -could- be a crafting, but it didn't need to be. there were crafting skills, gathering to get mats for crafting, and mission skills.
I never really got the point of most mission skills, but thats beside the point.
What was stopping anyone from just dropping a profession, getting slicing, and using the "**** its sooo op" money to fund their crafting?
This is exactly what i did.
Right now I have 276k credits, so many crafting mats for cybertech to keep me in epic mods all the way to 50 and basically no need for slicing anymore.
Slicing nerf? oh well i'll just drop and go back to a gathering professions I don't need since I've already bought all the mats I do.
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I am against damage meters being included in the game. I don't like how the meters are used to belittle another person. As I read through many of these posts I have counted the words "Baddie" "Fail" over 200 times(they are referring to individuals).
It is horrible to think that a game (meant for fun) can cause individuals to treat or think of others in such a manner. It would be a shame to add something to the game that would destory the ideals of Star Wars.
This has nothing to do with damage meters and everything to do with the type of person using it.
People that would belittle you over a damage meter are going to find other reasons to belittle you as well. They're just ******es and it is what comes naturally.
Damage meters are an incredibly useful tool and anyone that thinks otherwise is simply ignoring the fact but like any tool it can be used improperly.
/ignore is a good way to start.
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Nope.
It has everything to do with guild control freaks kicking people for not being up to snuff instead of teaching them. Name one guild that actually taught people instead of just g-kicking them and removing them from the raid.
What's that? No response? It's ok.
Stop joining ****** guilds.
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I understand how launch day works, this isn't my first rodeo, nor is it for many other people nearest I can tell. I'm not canceling over queues. I'm canceling over lack of up to date communication with the community over the game plan on how they plan to fix things going forward. A simple, "we are aware that things have gone beyond what we expected" would have sufficed.
To keep redirecting us to a several days old post that is no longer relevant given the circumstances is unacceptable. Add that to the out of control queue situation and now web-site bugs that won't even let you protect your personal funds, I find no reason to stay at this time.
I'm all for patience, but patience without communication in this situation is unacceptable to me. For those of you throwing around the "first mmo lulz" b.s., this is far from it. At this point I'm a vet, I knew what to expect out of servers. The community relations for the last few weeks has been piss poor. If you can't publicly address us in any meaningful manner than I can't see paying you to remain silent. It's that simple.
Then quit and stop posting. not sure what the point of this thread is but I won't be suprised to see you around next week and the week after.
Man up or ****.
To all the people ************ about Slicing nerf.
in Crew Skills
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