Wait...what!? You mean there are crazy people on the internet? Seriously, I do appreciate the communication from the devs, even if the message is one we don't want to hear. I also think it's probably a bad policy to have devs delivering class change rationales under a tag that can be used to personally identify them, since...yeah, there are a lot of loons on the net and it's inevitable this will happen with a charged topic. That said, let's all remain respectful and keep the heat on Bioware to provide the changes we want instead of getting distracted by sub arguments in this thread.

1) Do you main a Watchman Sent/ Anni Mara and if so, since when? It was my main from beta through 3.0, but now I only use the toon occasionally if I need a lockout. 2) What time was the best state of WM / Anni and why? 2.10 was the best. Annihilation was fun with cauterize proc and short dots, Carnage was a good burst spec that took skill, and Rage had excellent AoE -- there was a fun, viable, spec for every situation in the game. 3) What's your favourite ability and what's your least favourite ability? Currently? Probably dual saber throw, because it's kinda neat looking. The worst is Force Rend, because it broke Anni, and it looks lame....and I paid money for an expansion to get it (and ruin my favorite spec). 4) How much do you enjoy the spec after 3.0. in comparison to 2.X.? It's awful. I rarely play my Mara now and have switched to maining a Sniper for DPS. 5) Which was the best version put on PTS for 3.2.1.? I didn't bother to test, since I have zero interest in playing a melee spec with long dots. I'm done with the class unless it goes back to something 2.10ish. 6) Will the planned build for 3.2.1. be an improvement to what we have on live atm? No. I trust the people who have tested it and reported that it is worse. That said, 3.0 Mara is bad enough that I don't even care what modifications they make if it keeps Force Rend dot as core to the rotation, since I won't be playing it on live outside of niche cases. 7) How do you think class balance should be achieved and how should different specs of on AC get their own identity? Melee needs either better survivability or more dps than ranged. Currently, for PvE at least, there is no ranged tax, there is a melee tax, which is backwards. I believe that a dps class should have specs that do different things : 1 Sustained, 1 Burst, 1 AoE (Old Rage > Fury for this, by a lot). 8) Do you feel you have the opportunity to contribute to the improvement of the spec with your feedback? Eh, not really...My feedback since day one of 3.0 has only been "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?". I've basically only told Bioware I want the old spec back. If they are determined to go this new route, I'm not interested in the class anymore. 9) If there's just one thing you could change about the spec, what would it be? (please really do stick to the "one thing" bit here, this is important!) Remove or redesign Force Rend to replace an ability from 2.10 (Like they did with Snipe->Lethal Shot for Virulence). New Force Rend dot = Worst. idea. ever. 10) What does it take to make you continue playing Watchman / Anni? Revert to 2.10 style.

I think for me, and the majority of the old Anni / Watchman players, the long dot is the whole problem with the new spec. It penalizes target switching, and requires a long build up on a target to generate resources for the next long dot. Not to mention, as a melee, if you have to move away from a target (which happens constantly) your rotation will break down so you can't just neatly reapply the dot as it drops off without taking a big resource hit. I thought old Anni was great melee spec, in part, because I always felt i had good situational awareness. There was no need to hunt for my bleeds on the boss's health bar to figure out "is it time yet?"....with Rupture and DS, you'd just hit them and forget them: do a few attacks after Rupture, then reapply if proc'd. It made the hazardous life of a 4m melee a bit less of a hazard.

If 3.0 Anni had been the play-style since beta, I doubt there would be a problem. But I just don't know how the Devs thought there would be no backlash for completely redesigning --aka destroying -- the play-style of one of the most popular specs -- it's not like it was the old Hatred Assassin where nobody played it, so do whatever and hope it works out. Players invested hundreds of hours leveling, learning, and raiding with the class because THEY LIKED IT, and then 3.0 comes along and pulls the rug out: "Here guys, we know this isn't what you signed up for during last 2.5 years and over levels 1-55, but have a totally new play-style, because 'nebulous reasons'!" It would be like AT&T suddenly deciding to push out IOS to all the Android phones on their network "just because". People would rage, justifiably, because that isn't what they bought into originally. The same thing applies here. Bioware's oldest customers who leveled Mara pre 3.0 aren't ever going to be happy until they get the return of what brought them to the class initially, or at least something very close.

We do have some really good healers, but if everyone in the raid takes some responsibility during the channel when the boss happens to be in a rift, it goes a long way too. PTs can sonic rebound the initial curse hit, snipers can drop a shield, marauders can predation, mercs & sorcs can offheal since the boss is immune, etc. I'm guessing we'll try it both ways to compare in future pulls; opinions as to which is easier seem to be varied on Dulfy and the Operations thread on these forums. Some of those opinions may be biased by groups going with 3 healers, which probably makes the stack method very appealing...we did the standard 2 Tank / 4 DPS / 2 Healer comp though.

You should stop wasting money by paying people to test this stuff nobody wants and revert to 2.10. Just sayin' (for the dozenth time).

I had to miss the raid last night, but I'm pretty sure it was just stack and H2F for the cross. As for tanking him with DPS relics, I'm actually considering experimenting with that on purpose: 1 Reactive Warding relic + 1 DPS relic + DPS stim may be pretty good, since so much of his damage is internal.

I actually think PT + Sin can cheese Master/Blaster better than double PT. If your DPS is good enough, 2 Hydraulics and 1 Phase walk is all you will need to get through the roaming yellow circles phase without moving. If your dps is a bit slow, you can have a sorc dps/healer pull the sin on the second knockback he has to take, and it will avoid it entirely. If the Sin has the Fade utility, you can then break Master's first beam after Rain of Pain, and shroud the second one both times, making the second half of the fight way easier on healers and dps.

Not that it's been a real roadblock for many, but is anyone else noticing a major reduction to the damage on Malaphar HM? There's nothing in the notes, but we ran it with a couple groups this week and the damage from building up stacks seemed much lower on dps/heals -- people were able to stand in until almost 20 stacks without dying. As for a new color, yeah, I'm for it. The 204 MH plus the BiS DPS enhancements and tanking B-Mods from the "trash" pieces that will be dropping are basically like the removal of the NiM power buff from DF/DP. -- it might actually be more of an Ops nerf, I dunno.

Agreed. Our first 4/5 HM ToS and 2/5 Rav kills had TWO Marauders in the group. At Torque we dropped down to one Mara and stayed with that comp -- so we had a Mara present for 9/10 HM (and will probably keep a Mara for Revan). Sent/Mara does have issues, but it's mainly with DTPS, not DPS, and a lot of those problems disappear in the hand of a good player who can react quickly to mechanics....no doubt the skill cap is higher for melee these days, but once a player is over that cap it isn't terrible. Of course there are things to complain about: QoL stuff like having to endlessly watch dots with Anni angers me, but that's another issue.

Underlurker HM is the one fight I always want a Marauder because of the predation utility that makes your group immune to the add slows. We usually just put our Marauder on the boss full time (dot spread to adds when necessary, but the other dps can usually handle them), but he saves his stacks to pop predation around the time the rocks start falling (about half way through the channel)...so, his dps takes a hit due to not using Berserk, but who cares? The group has plenty of time to get behind/avoid rocks, so the raid dps goes up. Edit: Also, pop cloak of pain each time the adds show up for a little extra dps on them (and to help your healers). Also, if you 5 DPS the fight, Mara/Sent makes an excellent "tank" to assume the front/rear cross position...use force camo each time right before the cross hits, and Undying Rage if you are in the front position. Also, I know I used Mara ability definitions -- I don't speak Republic.

Thanks guys! Yeah, Cora is definitely a tough fight; it's much worse than Master/Blaster IMO. Ruugar wasn't too bad though...we got him down our 5th or 6th time seeing him -- just a big dps check with exploding droids.

Reading fail. Deleting my post after reading the one above this.

<Shadow Council> downed HM Coratanni (5/5 Rav HM)!

The way I see these changes is they are going from: A) Weak, long, dots that line up into a smooth, boring, rotation. To B) Stronger, medium length, dots that don't line up into a smooth rotation. This is not what I want for the spec (pre 3.0, please!), but I have to say I'd take B over A. If we are trying to make the spec dummy parse hero #1, then yeah, A would be better. But in Operations, due to stuff happening, I rarely ever get to do a smooth 36-second Anni rotation...so something that's more of a priority system with shorter, harder hitting dots has to be better. Right? P.S. Please bring back pre-3.0 Anni Bioware

Or maybe she can just do what she wants without getting it cleared by you first? Unless you pay for her sub or something, then, my apologies for the misunderstanding. Personally, I've crafted a few 192 hilts for toons even though I'm 8/10 HM. Why? Because ~5 million credits is worth less to me than the time it would take to clear SM and hope to win the roll on the MH for a half dozen toons. People have their reasons...

Personally, I don't want to see a super strict verification process here. I'm good with a screenshot or even just a list of toons present for the kill. Not because I wouldn't believe it otherwise, but because I like to see who the accomplished raiders on our server are, and what classes they are using to clear fights. Making things more strict is pointless... If a guild is lying, they will be found out eventually when achieves don't match the post here....and then we can all stone them to death as is right and proper.

Reverting Anni to pre-3.0 is definitely tops on my wish list, but my takeaway from the OP is that it ain't happening -- they are happy with how the class currently plays, and don't want to expend resources making it fun again. I have no idea why they felt the need to take a fun spec and trash it in the name of "progress ", but that's the reality. My Mara used to be my main for NiM, but at this point he's sitting the bench in favor of my Sniper, and I have no desire to change that as things stand.

Update: The position has been filled. All of our teams are always willing to take skilled players on a fill-in basis, however, so let me or any of our other members know if you're interested in setting up a meeting about joining. Thanks!

<Shadow Council> is now 4/5 Ravagers HM

Shadow Council (E) is still active. (I guess I've been bad about making the check-in dates). Also, I suppose it's probably best if you switch the guild leader toon to Hypacia, since Syrgeas is sleeping until the Marauder nightmare that is 3.0 ends. Thanks!

<Shadow Council> (E) is looking for a dedicated progression raider for our Tues-Wed 8pm-11pm EST team, starting the first week of April. The team you would be running with is currently 2/5 HM Ravagers, and 2/5 HM ToS. We have the flexibility to accept any role, but applicants need to be ready for HM and all that comes with that. If interested, let me know here (thread or PM is fine), or contact me on Hypacia or Koenyg in game . Familiarity with fights, previous on-tier NiM/HM experience, detailed spec knowledge, or sample parses (either dummy or, even better, against bosses) will be a definite leg up if we get multiple apps. Thanks! Guild Overview: Shadow Council has been active in SWTOR since launch. We are an adults-only guild (18+), with players that focus primarily on progression PvE, casual PvE, and casual PvP. We are an average sized guild, with 50 currently active members. The guild overall is currently 4/5 HM Ravagers, and 4/5 HM ToS and our raid schedules are as follows: Progression Teams Team 1: Tues/Wed., 8pm-11pm EST Team 2: Tues., Wed., Mon., 11pm - 2am EST Team 3: Thurs-Fri., 8pm-11pm EST SM/Casual: Team 4: Sunday 4-7pm EST There are also several unscheduled pick-ups throughout the week if people happen to be on. If you are interested in joining a team that isn't currently taking apps, feel free to let me know and I'll check back with you should something open up in the future. Thanks!

<Shadow Council> is 3/5 HM Ravagers Only one Marauder I sat mine for my assassin tank.

I will grant Torque is doable with melee, heck, you could probably kill it sub 2 minutes with a full team of Juggs reflecting fire. Looking at parsley logs , it seems people will hazard some Hatred assassins too, likely for the awesome dot spread on DF. I'm not seeing Maras though.... I guess I'm a bit concerned using smash isn't going to be effective for AoE on all the things, and the dps check will be crazy tight.

Thanks! Yeah, since 3.0, we haven't accepted how times have changed and are still running 2x Marauders for all our kills, mostly because we hate ourselves. This will probably have to change now that we will be working on Torque.... I'm not sure we hate ourselves that much.