-Yui-
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Posts posted by -Yui-
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I don’t know why carnage is getting a bad rap regarding sustainable dps.
It's not getting a bad rep for sustainable DPS. It's getting a bad rep for what it used to be -- the premier burst spec in the game.
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Get to 60.
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I'm rather astonished.
Just when you thought the hole couldn't get any deeper...
Some advice, Devs, actually listening to feedback might actually help you guys out. Or you guys might as well delete the entire AC since in about a month or two the only ones left playing it will be the newbies who think "TWO LIGHTSABERZZ." Oh wait. Aren't we at that stage already?
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I think the main takeaway from this relatively long (36 pages) thread that I find out of the norm, especially for a gaming thread on class balance, is that the community is displaying an unequivocally stand against Bioware's stance that Marauders/Sentinels are fine or somewhat fine. Even players from other classes don't disagree.
That's the most surprising part, and should be more indicative of the state of the class than anything else. We want changes. And not just a few months later -- that is what you told us a few months ago -- but by 3.2. Patch 3.1.1 was supposed to be the patch which we were looked at, and that was a month ago (with the announcement that we were being looked at a few weeks before that). With the upcoming 3.2 changes further being so marginal and misdirected that most Marauders/Sentinels wouldn't even care if they were put in or not, that's almost three months where we were supposed to be "fixed," and that's disregarding the feedback given in 3.0 beta (AND disregarding the forum posts on the dismal state of Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman since mid-December).
Could an actual time frame be provided or are we stuck waiting interminably for changes that do absolutely nothing to help the class (as has been the case of the past two patches)?
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Give it up folks. Re-roll another class or unsubscribe until 4.0.
PvP Data
Our intent behind exposing win rates for Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman was not to suggest that they are our only data point for decision making. The goal was to express that, by looking at average win rates and overall performance, those Disciplines can be viable. Understanding, however, that in some of those cases it reflects only the best players in that class. Still, it does show that they can play at the top levels.
The best players who have played this game left last spring/summer. The "top" players currently playing this game at the "top" levels are most likely players on teams facing vastly inferior competition. If there was an actual Team Ranked scene, we wouldn't have a spot. Many other classes do exactly what we do but better. AP/Tactics is vastly superior to any of our burst specs. So is Marksman/Sharpshooter. So is Lightning/Telekenetics. Our only DoT spec (Annihilation/Watchman) is the worst DoT spec in PvP. You get the idea. Stop using your "data" that "shows" we can play it at the top levels. SWTOR hasn't had an active Team Ranked scene since the first month of Ranked Eights. Stop. Just stop it.
Now, you all brought up a really interesting fact, which is how frequently you see Marauders/Sentinels in the top of all overall ratings. It is true, in looking at that data point, that Marauders/Sentinels are definitely under-represented, we agree! However, we think the most important part of that data is not who is missing from the top, but who makes up the top. Looking at the top spread of players, almost all of them are spread across only three Advanced Classes: Powertech/Vanguard, Sorcerer/Sage, and Assassin/Shadow. That is the real problem that we are working on addressing right now. With those three Advanced Classes over-performing, all other Advanced Classes (including Marauders/Sentinels) are being pushed into a bad place. This is why you will see that we are actively working on toning down those classes specifically (like we did yesterday in 3.1.2).
We do want to avoid just buffing other classes up, and instead need to focus on bringing down the over-performing classes. If we concentrated on buffing all other classes to the status of over-performing classes, we would create a power bloat that would make PvE decisively too easy and PvP time-to-kill too short.
This actually needs further explanation, otherwise it's simply just more smoke and mirrors. I thank the Dev Team for attempting to tone down the current over-performing classes, but unless you actually majorly nerf those classes, they'll still stay ahead of Marauders/Sentinels. From what I can tell, you're attempting to shift the three strongest Advanced Classes to the left in the spectrum of classes and their relative strengths while maintaining the current standing in the middle. What this means is this: unless you nerf those classes (read: every class) to the Marauder/Sentinel baseline (which would inevitably cause an exodus similar to the one we suffered) we'll still remain the worst class in PvP.
To reiterate what we said in the last post: We do acknowledge that there are issues with Marauders/Sentinels, especially around Utility and mobility, and we will be working to address these issues in future patches.
So, 4.0?
Quite honestly, you guys want a quick fix to the Marauder/Sentinel class? Take your most recent change on the PTS for Juggernauts/Guardians (4 second CC-immunity on leap) and give it to Marauders/Sentinels while giving the Force Exhaustion CC-immunity to them. I see no conceivable reason why a class already stronger than Marauders/Sentinels actually get the mobility buff that Marauders/Sentinels sorely need. You fix two birds with one stone; a strong class (Juggernaut/Guardian) gets toned down a little while a class sorely lacking mobility (Marauder/Sentinel) actually gets some.
To be honest, this fix would cause you less headaches and grey hair from dealing with the community. Most (if not all) players would applaud the change and instead of a few dozen pages of negative feedback you get another dozen pages of happy players. If you're afraid of "balancing" issues, well, you were already prepared to hand a stronger class than Marauders/Sentinels this buff. Why not give it to the weaker class? So, three birds with one stone?
It sucks that there is a push-me-pull-you between PVP and PVE class changes in this game.
There isn't in this case. Both Sentinels/Marauders in PvP/PvE want greater mobility.
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Hey Sentinel and Marauders. Let's all start afking in Warzones/Ranked so that Bioware will buff us based on their "metrics"!
I apologize in advance Eric, but this is actually one of the most out of touch posts in a long time. I'm going to politely rebut every single major point provided in this post, just because I've perhaps never seen a more misguided and plain out incorrect post by any developer team of any MMO or game.
Heck, I even resubbed just so I could reply to this.
Hey folks,Marauder/Sentinel PvP Viability:
As it presently stands, Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman are performing well in Solo Ranked and Group Ranked PvP, respectively.
This is perhaps the most interesting line. Any Sentinel/Mara currently playing the game knows that Annihilation/Watchman is a joke of a spec for PvP. The only reason you might observe that they're performing somewhat well is because, quite literally, only a few fairly good players use that spec - and they use it quite sporadically (a hail to the good ol' days of Annihilation/Watchman pretty much). I guarantee you if you pull up your metrics, the spec % of Annihilation/Watchman of all other specs is less than 0.5%, and within the Sent/Mara ranked specs most likely <5%. Given the dearth of Ranked in this game, I'm not sure how you can draw any sort of conclusion from, presumably, a insanely small sample size. Or any statistical test in general.
We target a 50% win rate for each Discipline in PvP, and Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman are slightly above this ideal win rate. Carnage/Combat is the seventh most effective Discipline (out of 24 Imperial/Republic total Disciplines) with a win rate that is right on target. Annihilation/Watchman is ranked seventh in Solo Ranked PvP (out of 24 Imperial/Republic total Disciplines) with a win rate that is equally on target. Additionally, Carnage/Combat is currently in one of the top 5 Group Ranked PvP class compositions, and this composition has an 82.6% win rate. While win rates are not the sole variable that we balance PvP performance from, these numbers provide evidence of Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman viability in broad PvP scenarios.
These numbers don't provide much evidence of anything. Why not dig deeper into that win percentage. How many players of that win percentage are old players? How much of an exodus of "weaker" players has affected the Sentinel/Marauder class as a whole? Which part of that 82.6% win rate is one team continuously farming a far weaker team? I count myself as a fairly good Marauder, and quite honestly, 9/10 I recognize the other Sentinel/Marauder on the opposite team simply because they've been playing for 2+ years. Most of the players who can't make Sentinel/Marauder work simply don't play it. I know three or four players (who have been ranked top 5 in various seasons) who used to have a Marauder alt not even touch the class because of how useless the class has become. To put it bluntly, the win percentages are a result of skewed data. The effect of high quality Marauder/Sentinel players on the win percentage is immense. Here, class population loss vs. retain of highly ranked players or a comparison of total number of hours played on Marauder/Sentinel vs. pre-2.8 Marauder/Sentinel (you can normalize this to overall game population if you want) will be indicative of this, of which I am fairly certain. I have gone nights where I was the only Marauder on both teams. And this is in Warzones. You don't need statistical analysis to know something is wrong here (kind of interesting tidbit, as Sentinel/Marauder was formerly perhaps the third most popular class). For many players, there is little to no incentive to play the class, and even good ones believe that the class is atrocious relative to almost any other class/spec in the game.
Fury/Concentration is in the lower half of the PvP spectrum. Like other classes that are underperforming, this is, and shall continue to be, addressed in upcoming class balance updates.
This is another line which simply shows that you guys actually don't PvP on Sentinel/Marauder. I'm not saying this in a patronizing way -- it's the truth and you guys should own up to it.
Fury/Concentration outperforms Annihilation/Watchman. Your use of "metrics" is interesting here because that's an unequivocal truth. The main reason why your data might show otherwise is that Fury/Concentration is a popular spec for beginning players. Contrary to your spec goals provided in the original post, Fury/Concentration has a easier time than Carnage/Combat simply because its a priority system. Most of the original Marauders still stick with Carnage simply because it has been the "to-go" PvP spec for the past two years. With so few Marauders/Sentinels left (and what remains mostly of more veteran players), the effect of this on win percentage is immense, meaning higher than actual win % for Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman than Fury/Concentration. You might have noticed some confusion on the PTS when many Marauders/Sentinels were wondering why Fury/Concentration was chosen to be buffed instead of fixing Carnage/Combat or Annihilation/Watchman. Metrics can be wrong, as it is in this case (or in any case in your post, in general).
While we plan to adjust Marauders/Sentinels in future updates, we do not expect to see any Marauder/Sentinel Disciplines receiving significant damage output increases. Each of the Disciplines is presently performing at our desired DPS markers, and we plan to focus on Utility in the future. Specifically, mobility and self-healing improvements are currently being tested. We’ll keep you up to date on changes in the coming weeks.
If we are performing at your desired DPS markers than you might want to buff us a bit, because (I'm going to repeat this ad nauseum) good players are significantly pulling up your metrics. If I go on my Sin I will guarantee you I'll hit 2.2k in any given game. Ditto for Lightning. Ditto for Virulence. Ditto for Lethality (well, perhaps 2k). While on my Mara I count any game above 1.8k a decent game. There is a clear DPS discrepancy, and I imagine if you looked at Marauder players who have multiple other classes and normalized that data, you would see Marauders/Sentinels under-performing.
It should be noted that PvP success is continually changing as updates reach live and the community learns new strategies with their classes.
These "strategies" take no time to learn. You have made no significant changes with the class (if anything, made each spec easier with 3.0). Adding a heal onto a defensive cooldown does not change our game-play whatsoever. Neither does immunity on Force Crush/Exhaustion.
Looking forward, we will continue to incrementally improve the status of Marauder/Sentinel Disciplines that are not performing to satisfaction. This is the perspective that we hold for all Disciplines across all classes.
We will continue to collect constructive feedback from the threads, concerning all classes, and apply improvements through our continual class balancing updates.
-The SWTOR Combat Team
It is difficult not to read these final lines with a sense of disappointment. I'm sorry SWTOR Combat Team, but you have failed miserably. I have to say, good luck to whatever is left of the Marauder/Sentinel community, but I think I'm done with the class for a bit. Why spend so much effort for such little gain and no possible hope for a better result in the future?
The only thing this post accomplished was to crush the hopes of a few thousand players. For the sake of the future of SWTOR, I hope the rest of your "updates" aren't as misguided as this one.
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I'm not sure what the point of this post is.
Yes, I can go out and do 2.6-3k damage in a Warzone/Arena if given the right team/comp. The thing is -- it is far harder to perform well, not to mention the dozens of other variables that need to be perfect in order to even have a shot at a good game, relative to other classes.
No, the spec isn't as broken as to be completely nonviable. It is, however, a pretty ****** class to play. It's unenjoyable and the work you put in in order to even make the class seem kind of okay seems retarded.
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What if:
- Landing a crit from a direct melee attack offered a small chance at granting 1 Zen/Berserk stack?
- Additionally, the maximum number of Zen/Berserk stacks allowed is increased to 12, but Centering/Fury still only grants 6.
I like this idea; a 15% proc chance would directly correlate to at least a 4.5% damage boost for Carnage, which isn't so bad.
- Landing a crit from a direct melee attack offered a small chance at granting 1 Zen/Berserk stack?
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These are all good QoL changes that do not go far enough.
A few notes:
But I'd rather have this functional ability on a too-long cooldown than a nothing ability on a 2 minute cooldown.In most scenarios, Undying Rage is still used as a last ditch cooldown. Sure, the no health lost is nice -- but honestly, in almost every possible situation with a healer/tank, the old Undying was more than enough to escape death. The extra minute is just, interestingly, Bioware's attempt to "balance" the class around some weird double standard that ended up making an alright buff (not that amazing in the first place) somewhat mediocre/negative. Bioware giveth and taketh away.
Reigning/Maiming Reach + Just Pursuit/InescapableReally, the Mara utilities needs to be looked at as a whole. I agree that the Leg Slash investment is too large, and the simple fix would be to just revert all changes back to pre-3.0. About 2/3rd of the entire Utility tree is less than useless, and a majority of those could be remade to help Mara survivabilityl/cc-immunity/self-heals/whatnot.
I've been switching from Fleetfooted/Unbound and spamming it, to not running that utility and using Zen/Berserk instead. What I can say with full certainty: my team and I do WAY better when spamming Predation.You're putting too much thought into what has traditionally been one of the hallmarks of Carnage. Predation is fine where it is right now. Divorcing it entirely from the Zen system a) marginalizes one of the most fundamental aspects of the class and b) why not just give Maras a *********** force speed then.
I think Sents/Maras would once again be a viable class for PvP, and a lot of QoL would be solved.The QoL changes that you suggested are perfectly fine, but honestly, trying to do so is tantamount to improve the quality of life in a village in Ethiopia when other classes are in a penthouse in New York. The entire class needs a review, from damage output to survivability. You know there's something very wrong with the class when Jugs get a 1.5 minute Lay on Hands while Maras get a pitiful 3-minute Divine Shield.
In the meantime I'll continue to enjoy doing 2k dps/100-200k protec/200k healing on my Jug that just turned 60 2 days ago. There really is no comparison.
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I've been doing regs in Fury spec and really enjoying it coupled with the 3.1.1 changes. The ranged root back in the game is most welcome and the Undying Rage change makes the class feel a little more robust and survivable. Not too sure about viability in ranked but will queue some ranked soon and have a crack. Hell, even using Force Camo as a gap closer is kinda fun. We have a few more tools to use in reg PvP so I'm happy for now and I must say the 3.0 version of Fury spec is pretty damn good.
In general, I still feel that Defensive Forms should be made a baseline passive for the class and perhaps just move Brooding to the Skilful tier. Having 2 "must haves" in our utility tree restricts the kind of choices we can make across all situations and being free of those restrictions would be a further QoL improvement.
Ravage could possibly be buffed for the entire Warrior class too in order to bring both Juggs and Marauders up in line with the raw damage output of Mercs, Sorcs, and Snipers but the upcoming nerfs might negate the need to do this.
The Undying change is an outright nerf. I've lost count how many times the extra minute on Undying ****ed me over, The days where you could rotate cool downs correctly, with a healer of course, and take 1 - 1.5 million damage (yay focus fire) are over.
Vengeance Juggs already have a buffed Ravage - and a buffed ravage is going to do little to bring Maras up to the damage output of other classes. Even a 25% damage buff would just mean an extra 2k damage on an 18 second CD. That 18 sec CD is, of course, delayed for 6 seconds in Carnage (and lower in priority in the other two specs anyway), so you'll probably use it 15-20 times in any given Warzone. That's not even close enough to bring Maras up to par. In the next patch all three specs of Maras are still going to be doing the least damage out of all specs/classes in the game save Concealment.
On the side topic of Juggs, they don't really need an increase in damage. I've been doing 1.4k dps in lowbies even while playing him half-assedly, and that number usually goes up to around 1.6-7 if I actually play it correctly. That number is about the 25th-40th percentile of my games as Mara -- but that's with 1k less strength and who knows how many secondary stats, along with the fact TTK in Lowbies is far shorter than 60s thus giving a sustained damage spec like Vengeance a disadvantage. Jugs already outdpsed Maras pre-3.0 and 3.0 only enlarged that gap.
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Put it back at launch UD and make it increase healing (from all sources) and damage output by 100-150% for the duration. Bam. It is now useful. Kinda like a berserk.
Nah. Undying is fine for its role as a last resort CD. Putting too many vital abilities on one 3-minute cooldown isn't smart, especially for PvP.
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so that we can make it better known to the devs outside this post alone.
I actually had the opportunity to pass on an aggregation of ideas to Tait (most of them ideas from this forum), who supposedly passed it on to the Devs. No changes from that quite lengthy (9 pages, double spaced) article made it into the game yet though.
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because we play the classes that we enjoy playing most. sure it may make it more difficult, but why play a game if you are forced to do something that you really dont want to do.
our group has pretty much been the same make up since EC HM. with the only exception being replacing a sage healer for a scoundrel.
Then...you are missing the point entirely. Every class is viable in the game, its just how viable they are relative to other classes.
...will lead to the dark side. Though I can see where the anger and suffering comes from ;-)For those who already ARE on the dark side anyway: It don't think it will actually help...
Remember, it's real people you are attacking personally, not just pixels or a name on the forums. I'm sure they're trying to do the best they can and that they are not totally free in their decisions, since they have to obey global game design principles. Now you may want to question those alright, but I don't think it's fair to attack singular class designers that way. And besides all criticism, if you do want your suggestions to be heard, it doesn't make much sense to insult the people who would apply them.
I know this is difficult, but I urge you guys to keep it civil so the reasonable voices can be heard and the class can improve in the coming patches. I think Devs have already realized more needs to be done and more insults will not make that any clearer. If you do want to have a say about what's going to happen, you need to be taken seriously. Rants seldom are...
I agree with your post in spirit. But I don't think many Maras/Sents are insulting the devs, much less attacking them personally (the occasional "**** the devs are so bad" aside). The situation really hasn't gotten there....yet.
The state of the Sent/Mara forums is quite simple to explain really. The lack of helpful change in 3.1.1 crushed a few thousand players' dreams of the class ever becoming viable for the foreseeable future. That boiled into frustration, especially as there were hundreds of helpful posts on how to fix the class. The tone in most posts is one of frustration. Not hurtful intent.
Edit: Did not read the recent posts. I guess you're right.
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I'm not totally sure why you people even try. Bioware buffs/nerfs on a 6 month - 1 year basis. Best thing for you to do is to unsub until the buffs eventually hit. Might take two years though, as that was how long it took for Sages and Sorcs.
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The change to Cauterize to 12 seconds duration, and adding in Force Melt, both DoTs that need to be tracked and annoyingly precisely reapplied, is baffling to me.
There are 18 damage disciplines in the game, 1/3rd of which (Balance, Serenity, Plasmatech, Ruffian, Dirty Fighting, Saboteur) require this style of DoT tracking. Why did they make another spec in this style with Watchman? (now 7 DoT tracking disciplines)
Actually, Watchman is by far the most annoying DoT tracking spec, in a large part due to the fact its melee, but also due to the fact there are 3 DoTs, of which the icon for Cauterize makes it difficult to differentiate from other DoTs on the target.
For instance, the DoT application for Lethality/Dirty Fighting specs for Sniper/Scoundrel is just throw corrosive grenade and throw corrosive dart since both have the same duration -- not much managing needed, especialaly since you're fairly likely to switch to a new target. Watchman on the other hand...is a little bit more annoying.
I'd say it makes the spec more interesting though. Ramp up time isn't necessarily increased, as you can just Force Rend at the end of your normal rotation.
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I love the class and with the recent survivability and control buffs coming next week, I think Maras and Sents have a legitimate spot in group ranked again.
You mean the reversion of a nerf and an arguably worse version of Undying available to us in 2.7? /s
Back on topic...
Are you asking if Carnage does enough burst to force a guard switch? Yes.
Does Fury have enough sustained DPS to pressure a target? Yes, although Vengeance is probably better as a melee pressure class. Not much use for sustained damage anyway, with other classes/specs (Hatred, I'm looking at you) putting out a lot more overall pressure than Fury could ever do.
In regards to your last question, Fury and Carnage will both be competitive, but ultimately Carnage should be more popular due to its more greater and more consistent burst windows.
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With the complete neglect of pvp content are you guys sticking around ? I have seen some older players recently come back and that was nice to see so just wondering what your thoughts are , to me lack of arena map/ warzones and just new seasons of rank isn't enough to still be subbed to this game.
Which older PvP players have come back?
mvp is off playing Dota, Don't Panic still playing WoW, Midian/Core is spread out doing random stuff (Counterstrike, WoW, finishing school, etc.), and Breakfast is likewise spread out. A few Crescendo people have come back, although they aren't very active. A few players from SB still play, but they came back a few months ago.
To answer your question though, if you wanted PvP content or competitive PvP you should have left a long time ago. Take the game for what it is and don't expect more. If you don't feel like it's worth a sub then unsub. It's up to you.
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Yes, the only reason why the BiS Ranked 8v8 Setup was x2 Smash Maras (one going Carnage when you thought Carnage Pred was necessary) was because everyone in Ranked 8s were bad. And the reason why a double Smash Mara team in S1 on Pot5 went 126-2 was because everyone who did Team Ranked was bad. Carnage one of the above average specs (but not top tier, at least until 2.8 and it was only good for Team Ranked) after the Smash changes, but old Mara Smash was OP as **** and anyone who thinks differently is either clueless or peddling an Agenda.
Haha, actually, nobody brought Carnage. It was spec into Carnage, pred, and then spec back.
It was OP, but OP in that era. Nowadays I actually don't think Smash would be that insane (hint, hint, that's my agenda).
Afterall, one force storm (single target) does more damage than my ravage.
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Toxicity is what has killed queues every season
Even if everyone was lovey dovey fours would still be dead.
The trash talk in this thread is pitiful. More drama please.
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What do you think about the changes i proposed?
I assume you mean these:
1. Defensive forms should be given to all Mara spec for free - baseline.
2. Defensive roll + Displacement should merge and form 1 utility.
3. Expunging camouflage should be lowered from heroic to masterful and should form 1 utility
together with Phantom.
These changes in utilities + the UR & camouflage changes would be enough IMO.
1. Yes.
2. Two very different utilities. Should not be merged.
3. Possibly, although would barely change the class. Phantom is possibly the worst utility in the game.
Would help QoL but these are not near enough. Annihilation needs an overhaul to even compete with Hatred. Carnage needs help with roots/cc. Rage needs to go back to being Smash.
Bioware should just lock this thread and call it a day actually. Clearly we're just doing fine as a class.
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Keep telling yourself that. Sents were op until the smash nerf and even after that Combat was top tier spec (not op, but very solid).
So you agree with everything I've said? Thanks!
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I've decided to "main" Annihilation marauder in 3.0 and i don't think the situation is that bad.
Why go Annihilation when Hatred does the same thing with twice the damage?
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You mean what sentinel used to be for over 2 years? Must be hard not be on the top for a short time, my condolences.
Sentinels haven't been regarded as top for quite a while now -- extending almost over a year back with patch 2.7 with the nerf to Smash. Even by then, most teams used Carnage instead of Smash (at least on the Bastion), and Carnage was never regarded as top.
Really, by 2.0 most classes had been buffed to the level of Sentinels or beyond. The only time Sentinels were truly on top was perhaps 1.0 - 1.2. Then everyone rolled PT and Vanguard and realized what they could do with three buttons.
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A few thousand replies and all we get is a nerf to GbtF and Force Camo immunity.
I don't even play this game that much anymore but I'm still surprisingly disappointed -- as I think is every Sentinel/Mara right now.
Bioware, any more updates on "the status of our class" as you called it?
/salty
Is Carnage/Combat viable for PvP or do I need to go Fury/Concentration?
in PvP
Posted
Carnage was like that for its entire lifespan until they removed it in 5.6. Carnage became more popular after 1.3 when they took Gore off the GCD (and nerfed the duration to 4.5 seconds to compensate), but you could still technically do your Ravage -> Scream or Berserk -> Massacre x2 -> Scream even in 1.0 -- it just took 1.5 extra seconds due to the GCD. They changed Carnage again in 3.0 so that Gore lasted only 3 seconds, which actually made the rotation a lot easier.
Smash wasn't nerfed at all for over two years, but I don't think many people played it until its buffs in 1.4. Basically from 1.4 to 2.7, Smash was played by almost everyone. Warzones were basically Smash and Bubble Stun -- which actually alienated a lot of PvPers from playing the game at all.