I see Revan is still being argued against. The book makes it pretty clear that she was a source of energy only. "As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her. Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war." ―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan It's also a Dread Master-level feat in his weakest incarnation. Anyway, why haven't we placed Revan yet? It seems like Zoltan's the only one holding this back.

Then I win. Simple as that.

I'm sorry. I guess I should have lumped video games into my "what is not canon" response. Silly me. I can't believe that wasn't obvious. Fortunately you basically affirmed my stance on it outside of video games. Good job. Hahahahahahaha! You are just a treat. Let me tell you how things are going to work. I will engage you on the canon field of your choosing (which was my intention, see above). In return you will do the following: You will answer my 'uneducated thoughts and questions.' You will engage me in debate. And you will abandon your constant use of ad hominem. Failure to do so on any level will be a sign of your immediate concession. I patiently await your responses to my prior post.

Provided his responses fail to address the main thrust of each point, you could just accept his concession on the entirety of your argument, which would render this debate moot and we could all go back to more important matters.

Meh. That's a pretty easy tactic to answer. We'll see if he gives me that treatment as well.

I'd very much like to deal with this by weekend's end, since I have work to do elsewhere. I'll deal with it. No worries.

Depends on when you're taking Luke.

Something like that, yes.

Canon has gone out of its way to suggest that, yes.

Priorities, Zoltan. This thread must be cleansed of impurities.

The only thing said on the matter that I am aware of is that Mace seemingly won their duel. Canon seems to be taking the stance that it's best left to speculation.

Have you now? I won't speak for anyone else, but I can assure you that your statement is wrong as it refers to me. Intriguing. --Starwars.com I'd post supplementary quotes from Ultimate Star Wars, but I doubt you take that canon sourcebook as canon. Regardless, that's just one issue. Your second issue is with placing Vader above Palpatine. George Lucas himself made a canon statement on the matter, saying that Vader was weaker, and every source (canon and legends) supports the notion. Your only evidence is circumstantial and remains ignorant of the canon. We'll get to the rest of the issues later. For now, elaborate on your position for Vader at the #1 spot. Nope. Talking about you, as I thought I made clear in my discussion regarding your placement of Obi-Wan Kenobi. Green is my trademark, so you'll have to get used to it. That was also not even close to a wall. Anything not distributed under the Legends banner.

Having read the thread, it's obvious that the greatest issue (aside from the attitude of the OP) is in the list and the logic used to create it: To sum up, these brief sentences alone show the following: 1. Willful dismissal of canon material. 2. Ignorance of canon developments 3. Dismissal of context 4. Irritatingly poor grammar All of which begs the question, how does one make a canon list if one ignores elements of canon? While the rest of you answer that question, draw your attention to the rest of the list, wherein we'll see the final fundamental flaw in this list's design: In addition to all of the factors above, the reasons cited for placement show an interesting trend. That is to say, the reasons for placement are entirely based on combative feats. Take, for example, Obi-Wan Kenobi. His placement is based entirely on circumstantial feats, rather than the merits of his strength in the Force. Similarly, many characters are placed for the same reason. So, another question, how can this list determine the most powerful Force users when it dismisses context and is based on circumstance alone?

This is a real mess that I've come back to, isn't it? Can't I leave you people alone for a while without this place falling apart?

So does TFA.

Calling VII a 'taint' while TPM and Jar Jar still exist should be a crime.

I'm planning on writing a review of the film next week, since I'll be seeing it again tomorrow, so I'll answer these questions when I do that.

Fair enough. It works either way. And people can just CTRL + F to find what they need.

Speaking of Vader vs Plagueis, I had to add a few new arguments and expand on some old ones, but it's going to be posted while you wait on Padster here.

The Vader vs Plagueis one was better, imo. Also, spoiler tags definitely help with navigation. Makes finding specific things to respond to or read back over much easier.

Yes you did, Zoltan, but I don't have the source for what you want from it, so stick to the blade-to-blade combat thing.

Probably not a great idea to use outdated quotes from me, lol. But this form also has weaknesses. A practitioner of the second form of Makashi, or Form IV Djem So, will be able to defeat wielders of Shii-Cho with relative ease. The heavy strikes from Djem So are capable of breaking through the defenses of Shii-Cho. I unfortunately can't find the source for this, so stick with what we discussed in PMs.

Okay... Few things here. Firstly, all of those clones are completely deranged and practically untrained. Secondly, they were all distracted fighting each other. Thirdly, Starkiller summoned massive amounts of power to blow them away, whereas Revan's (via logical inference) is done with comparative ease. Fourthly, I highly doubt they were trained enough to summon defenses with all of the above applied. Fifthly, good try adding magnitude to the feet. Nothing says he splattered their entrails everywhere. The text makes note that they flew everywhere and the ground was slick with their blood. He likely flayed their skin which would explain the blood everywhere. It's not. Because Revan has greater raw power. Good to see my rally against Kun is gaining traction here. In comparison to Kun, Vader, and Starkiller? Yeah it is pretty unique, given that it was completely destroyed and Kun is never noted as having gone to Malachor V. It's further example of Revan's superiority to Kun in everything. And one would be wrong. Implying Revan would be incapable of this off nexus? :/ Vader has never demonstrated it to the point Revan has. Making someone doubt themselves to the point that they can't even use the Force is beyond Vader. If you want to consider it Dun Moch, then fine. But I see it in the realms of telepathy, given I find it difficult to imagine one can cut someone off from the Force by engaging in idle chit-chat. It does, however, remain an example of the breadth of Revan's mastery of the Force and psychological warfare. I find it extremely unlikely that a mental link would allow Revan to manipulate Vitiate without the latter knowing it. This is without including that Revan is having to do this while also recovering from the effects that Vitiate and the Dread Masters would have on his mind. Revan's mental manipulation abilities are simply beyond Vader's, Starkiller's, and Kun's, who have never reached into the upper echelons of this area. And then we can remember that several of his opponents (Marr, Beniko, Nox, Wrath) are also benefiting from this nexus, but I'm sure you knew that. Nice job using quotes from someone who wasn't on Oricon at the apex of its power. Satele could have only visited Oricon before or after the Dread War. In either case she would not have felt its full effects as the Dread purposefully performed experiments to increase the planet's potency, and the efforts of the Republic/Empire were meant to diminish their efforts. If she were there then why is some random Weequay Jedi leading the Jedi and Republic forces there? Clearly she wasn't there when it mattered and thus she's comparing Yavin to a weaker nexus. Prove Dooku can recover from suffering a blast building up to wiping out all life in a 1km radius and then having his life force forcibly stripped from him. Hint: You can't. Also, the battle on the Forgotten Terrace would have happened quickly after the Temple of Sacrifice battle. Marr explicitly states that they have no time to waste and that they must make haste before Revan escapes. They aren't dawdling in the slightest. "But we aren't finished yet. There is one element even our combined militaries will be unable to stop." "Revan." "Given his failure, he'll try to escape, to regroup. That cannot be allowed to happen." ―Darth Marr and the Emperor's Wrath (Star Wars: The Old Republic) False. KOTFE confirms the TOS battle happened. "I came to Yavin 4 to study the mechanisms of the Temple of Sacrifice. Your strike team was quite thorough disabling it, but portions are still woven throughout the area."—Talos Drellik Talos confirmed this to me despite the fact that I have never done the OP in the first place. Proof. Further, Talos' quest for recruitment is to recover pieces of the TOS Machine Core in the hopes of understanding Eternal Empire tech. So, yes, the TOS operation does happen. It's called a retcon. Says you. There's quite a lot of evidence to suggest that Revan was weakened. And your counters above have been thoroughly debunked by in-game evidence. Yet here you are attempting to quantify both the amp and the injury. If you're going to get knee-deep in the argument, try not to call it flawed. Regardless, what I'm suggesting is that the damage Revan suffered is greater than whatever amp he received, which remains mitigated by Revan's inclusion of light side techniques in his arsenal. Furthermore, his displays are made even more impressive when you keep in mind that Revan summons multiple powers all simultaneously when exercising his power. In his first attack against the Coalition force, he uses Force Storm, Alter Environment, and telekinesis. In the later attacks he uses Force Destruction, Force Whirlwind, and Force Barrier. Clearly each display is not the full extent of his power. It's obvious that if he dedicated power to any single one of the aforementioned powers they would be even more potent. No, that's what you conclude by ignoring evidence and using flawed arguments. Given you constantly rail against these feats, it's really no surprise. *Artifice and architecture designed to channel and focus dark side energy I'll prove it below. Your proof: He [Exar Kun] has ordered the Massassi to build Temples according to the Ancient Sith designs... Temples which will focus the great dark-side energies in this place.--Tales of the Jedi Also, prove that they aren't pure light side energies. It's made pretty clear in the game that it's pure light side energy, just as pure dark side energy is also used. I'm pretty sure I know how, but please go on. My argument is ineffective in your eyes, because you simply can't get over Revan's increased power and the developments caused by his feats. You have railed against SOR Revan since the expansion came out and you have spared no expense in finding ineffective means to diminish his feats. You really need to get over it. Anyway, clearly the main thrust of my argument is lost on you. Revan's performance against Force users indicates a greater raw power in TK. Manipulating objects or individuals without Force defenses is far easier than breaking the defenses of a Force user, thus these feats are simply more impressive (certain feats aside). Revan's superiority in that area is more than enough for me to conclude that he can achieve comparable if not superior TK feats to Vader and Starkiller. Overall, Revan simply has greater displays against Force users, superior esoteric mastery, far superior telepathic abilities, etc etc etc. The fact that we haven't even gotten to some Revan's most impressive feats and hype is just further reinforcement of this. Fortunately, we're saving that for Krayt.

Seems unnecessary. Stuff like that is better suited for PMs, though it might be best for me not to talk about him behind his back. That's not very nice. @Kaedusz, saw the edit. The answer is yes.

I'd rather not derail the thread, so I'm not going to get into this. All I will say is that there are certain ways to deal with him.