Wow, I honestly can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not! I'm impressed! But thanks for pointing out my grammar mistake, I have now updated my original post to say "It was not a matter of skill"

No it is up to the game developer to make sure the game is a fun and hospitable environment for all who play it. SWTOR does not do that in the slightest. What we have here, is a game that now caters its PvP to a niche few who have simply learnt to live with it. We then have the top echelon of players who can utterly abuse their position to make everyone else's life a misery, and they do it on a daily basis because Bioware have made it possible. They can do this because burst damage is too high when BiS, CC is well over the top and the difference between Recruit/BM compared to WH BiS is still far too big given the limited health pools and high burst available. No-one is asking for Bioware to flat out make it easier, we are asking to make the game more hospitable and fun for all who play it. If anything it would make the game harder as it would put people on a more level playing field with each other meaning better overall competition. Those top echelon of players will still dominate, so I really don't see what the problem is here, as it can only benefit the game as a whole. The more people happily playing PvP, the more money Bioware makes and thus more development gets put into PvP - why are so many people against that if not for their own selfish reasons? Nothing is set in stone remember, MMO's are evolving all the time, except in this case, since 1.2, PvP has seemed to devolve with nearly every patch.

Nobody is denying that is what it takes to compete, we all know that coordination is king in high-end PvP. What we are trying to explain, is that type of gameplay is so unforgiving, it puts people off of PvP altogether, and thus is a detriment to the game. High-end PvP is an inhospitable unforgiving environment and it is putting people off of the game, end of story. That is a design issue, not a L2P issue. You are all obviously very passionate about the game, but if you honestly want what is best for it, then PvP needs to change or the game simply will not have the customer retention it needs in order to thrive. Learning how to coordinate is not the issue in and of itself, the issue is that people do not enjoy what it takes to get to that point so they don't bother. That tells you that there is something very wrong in the way PvP has been designed. When people would prefer not to play at all rather than learn how to play in this inhospitable environment, something is very very wrong, and it needs to change.

Where have I not presented solid arguments? It has been gone over in meticulous detail how it is not just a case of being beaten by coordination, but when you combine all the CC, high burst and gear imbalance that it breaks PvP. That sounds like a design problem to me don't you think? The only thing those Ranked Warzones did, were highlight those design problems in their fullest. I'm also not denying I was soundly beaten, I was well and truly soundly beaten - it is the way in which I was beaten that I believe is not doing the game any favours what so ever. It is that very type of gameplay that is putting people off of playing the game, yet for some reason no matter how many times I or others try and explain that, you and the rest completely ignore it with your tunnel-vision proclaiming I'm just QQ'ing because I got beaten by coordination.... It's turning into a bit of a joke now, if you can’t see where we are coming from by now, then you and the rest are in some serious denial about the current state of PvP within the game.

I'm not even going to go into how immature half of what you just said sounds. You haven't written tons of stuff about how to fix PvP, you've tried your hardest to bash me because you think I'm being "stupid". You're looking at the whole situation with tunnel-vision, and that's fine, you're entitled to look at things any way you want, but you really aren't winning anyone over here. Actually if you check my post history I have been very vocal about how distasteful I find PvP. It's a pity, some of my best posts have been deleted by Bioware's iron fist as of late for criticising developer interaction and the games impending doom if PvP is left in its current state, which were weeks before I made this thread, weeks before I played in those RWZ matches. And for the record, I have found PvP distasteful since 1.2, but that is another discussion and not much we can do about that now. All we can do is look at the mistakes made and try to overcome them, but I can assure you, if PvP stays as it is, the game will suffer and quite possibly fail. Whether you choose to believe that or not is up to you.

Except high-end PvP really is in a state of monkey dung, and most of the posts in these forums are all valid concerns, they have been since 1.2. Yes exactly, I only defend myself when people say crazy things like "you're only QQ'ing because you got beat by coordination" which simply isn't true. PvP as a whole is in a bad state and not doing the game any favours. I highlighted what I believe to be some of the core reasons for that, and for the most part all I get are the narrow-minded comments like the one above. And yes if anyone wants to have any meaningful input in the thread then they should absolutely read all of it. It's not like we've not covered the same thing 10 times in 5 different ways already...lets just repeat ourselves forever.

I counted more than one guy who said they played in a top rated team who agrees that PvP is broken right now... But then do you even read every post in a thread or just cherry pick the ones you want to reply to? No that is not what I am claiming, I am claiming that the type of gameplay that makes other players feel helpless and kills the fun for said players, is demeaning and hurting the game. But we've been over this again, and again, and again. If PvP is so perfect, then why do so many people clearly hate it? Have a browse through the hundreds of pages here in this very forum, it paints a very bleak picture of PvP in this game, and they're not wrong. It's funny, the only guys I know who really enjoy PvP are the ones who play in the top rated teams on my server. Bioware is essentially catering to an elite few, and it is hurting the game. I understand all too well why people such as yourself will try and defend it, but if you want what is best for the game, then things will have to change. Whether they do or not will decide this games future when F2P hits, I certainly won't be sticking around if things are left as they are. But you're fine with that right, just as long as they leave your precious PvP just the way it is

Very nice of you to read the rest of the thread We've covered all of that, even top Ranked players have covered some of the points you make. If you have the time read the entire thread, I recommend it, it's a good read.

Sensitive chap aren't you. I have friends who play RWZ's, it's not their fault the game is teaching them to play a particular way in order to be the best, they're just trying to have fun, same as all the rest and there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make them bad people. But there are people out there like myself who find that type of gameplay demeaning, that's not a personal attack on everyone playing RWZ's as it is not their fault, Bioware are the only ones to blame here. So please stop taking my attacks on RWZ's to heart, I'm not attacking you even though it may feel like that, I'm attacking Bioware as they are the ones who have made it possible. It only appears that I'm attacking you because we have a difference of opinion, in that regard I suppose we have been attacking each others opinions, but lets not generalise and drag everyone who plays RWZ's into it OK. You can try and justify PvP in its current state by trying to pick me apart but it really isn't going to change anything, my opinion and everyone else's will stay the same. You also fail to understand even basic grammar - "I didn't realise how bad PvP was broken, until tonight" implies I already knew PvP was broken, just not how bad, "until tonight". And the fact you're taking things very personally means you are not thinking critically about the situation, well you clearly aren't as you think the whole argument boils down to coordination... You don't get it, that's fine, but you're fighting a losing battle here. PvP needs some serious love from Bioware and every rational person knows it, probably even Bioware by now. You see, that wasn't me attacking everyone who plays RWZ's, that was me attacking everyone with the opinion that PvP is just fine the way it is, like yourself.

OK this right hear explains why you are being so defensive.... I'm not insulting anyone but Bioware. I take my hat off to players such as yourself who are willing to put the time and effort into learning how to play the game to its maximum potential, I really do. I have the utmost respect for the skilled players who kick my butt in RWZ's. But just because you are good at something doesn't make it right. It is clear as day that high-end 50 PvP is putting people off the game. Putting them off. This is a core gameplay issue not just a L2P issue. Just because you can learn how to be skilled in a broken PvP environment doesn't stop it from being a broken PvP environment, do you not understand that? Are you saying that the hundreds of thousands of players who have quit over PvP are wrong? I get it, you love PvP just the way it is, but it is not doing the game any favours and if you genuinely can't see that by now, then I doubt you ever will.

I'm not changing theory's, I'm discussing different aspects of PvP. The fact is they all effect PvP and the experience people have. Yes I believe gear is grossly imbalanced. Yes I believe burst damage is too high. Yes I believe CC is over the top. I can understand how talking about something else can appear to be sidetracking if you can only concentrate on one thing at a time, but I can assure you it is not. You'll notice that when I change topic it is because I am directly responding to someone's comment and point of view, I'm certainly not trying to change the subject or "sidetrack". PvP is in a pretty bad place right now and all of the above contribute. But you'll just ignore this post and continue to troll me on anything you think you can get a good reaction on, so continue...

No he pointed out I was wrong, I didn't try and refute that and simply said "Well you can get stunned for longer either way, not a good change." To which you replied. Maybe if you had replied to my original post? But I stand by the above statement because you can potentially get stunned for longer. Heck I do get stunned more often after 1.4, everybody does.

We're not all robots or NPC's like in the game, we're human beings and games can stir very powerful emotions. When players have fun for example, this is generally because they are doing something that is making them happy causing the brain to release endorphins that makes said person feel good. And vice versa, when something bad happens it can cause the brain to release cortisol, making the player feel stressed and agitated. These are physical and emotional reactions to playing the game and cannot be ignored. The reason things have gotten so bad is because they have been getting ignored. I'm glad you somewhat see where I am coming from, however I don't think it's as clear cut as the good teams stomping the bad making PvP inaccessible, I think there is more to it than that, namely the type of gameplay end-game PvP promotes.

No you replied to my second statement in which I somewhat corrected myself; And yes, that is exactly what I meant, as your resolve bar is less likely to be capped you can potentially be stunned more often.

How many times do I have to explain myself... Yes I got outplayed, I understand that. It is the way in which I got outplayed, the way in which the game teaches people to outplay others, that I wholeheartedly disagree with. I could learn how to outplay people in exactly the same way, but the very essence of that type of gameplay is poor design. If it was just a case of learning how to outplay others too, I'm sure more people would have stuck around, but people clearly didn't like the type of gameplay they were seeing, they didn't like what other players were capable of doing. That isn't just a L2P issue, that is a gameplay issue. If the best course of action when playing competitively is to lock someone out of combat making them helpless for prolonged periods of time, then that is bad design. Yes I'm sure being beaten in that way put lots of people off, but that fact it put so many people off, means there is more to it than just hundreds of thousands of players throwing their dolly out of the pram. If you get beaten in a way and it disgusts you and puts you off, if you have any kind of integrity you are less likely to want to learn how to beat people in the same way. I know lots of good people who would prefer to stay out of Ranked WZ's than to stoop to a level of gameplay they find demeaning. I even have friends that will only do pre-50 PvP whilst levelling alts because they think the state of level 50 PvP is so bad. The signs are everywhere, people do not enjoy high-end PvP. The more competitive it gets the less they seem to enjoy it. It's easy to just blame everything on L2P when you don't want things to change, but surely even you want what is best for the game? And if that means making high-end PvP less of a CC spike damage fest, then that is exactly what needs to be done. If you don't want your precious game to fail, then things need to change as they clearly are not enticing people to play in the games current state. And no matchmaking does not fix bad design, it just hides if from people until they start getting higher up the ladder. Competitive PvP really is terribly designed, and this game won't thrive until it is changed.

Well as resolve doesn't build as much, it will also drain to nothing quicker. Meaning you can spend more time stunned in a match than you could before the change. So yes you can be stunned for longer, which is what I said.

So you honestly feel the current state of CC and high burst is OK? Shame on you.

Well you can get stunned for longer either way, not a good change. So it is OK to lock someone in place indefinitely? Do you want to rethink your own logic there for a moment... Yes I said there is too much burst, so they need to lower that burst. What do you think will happen if they lower burst and not healing? Is it beginning to make sense yet? Healing would be out of control. If you lower the damage done, you have to lower the healing done too to balance it out. Making sense yet? TONS of players left after 1.2 for a whole host of different reasons, the examples you've given above included. But in general PvP turned to crap after 1.2, and with nothing left to do end-game except PvP, yes people left. But it wasn't just because they were getting pwned in RWZ's like you previously tried to make out... People just didn't enjoy PvP overall any more, and with nothing else to do, they left. And yes I'm well aware my team got outplayed, as I'm stated the last 10 times along with why I think PvP in general is broken at the moment... Are you even reading the discussion or are you just cherry picking the bits you can most effectively troll on? Because it looks like the latter from where I'm sitting.

Sadly that is because there is hardly anyone left to complain, most the people who don't like what PvP has become do not play the game any more, a large contributing factor to going F2P no doubt. And of course that is the message you got from my post, I would expect nothing more of you.

Before the resolve change you could only be stunned for a max of 6 seconds because of the overlapping resolve, now you can be stunned for a full 8 seconds. 2 seconds is a very long time in competitive PvP. Cleanse, 5 second cooldown only castable on one player...and who's to say your healer(s) aren't being locked down? Well obviously they would have to adjust healing if they lowered damage...but you didn't think that far ahead did you? You don't think it's possible all these players left because they didn't like or enjoy what PvP had become? How quaint.

It just proves how selfish some people can be. Even though something is blatantly hurting the game they defend it because it grows their epeen. I hope Bioware aren't actually listening to them, these aren't the type of people who should be having any kind of creative input on the game. Not when they can only see as far as their own gratification.

I know exactly what the reality is, I know I am not as skilled. I also know that I could become just as skilled if I put my mind to it, but that is not the point at all. If what I witnessed last night is what end-game PvP is all about, then I do not want to be skilled in it, I'd prefer to stay mediocre and have a blast in normal WZ's than stoop to a level of gameplay I find cheap and demeaning. People saying that the TTK goes up when two skilled teams go up against each other are also missing the point. Yes of course the TTK will go up if you are both locking each other down and healing to full whilst the other team is locked down. It's that very type of gameplay that is the issue in the first place though, locking people down for prolonged periods of time is not healthy for PvP and thus the game as it puts people off. At least you agree with me on that point. But do you not feel it is this over the top CC combined with the high burst that is causing the biggest problem? Think about it, the CC wouldn't be so bad if the burst wasn't so high. It is the direct combination of the two that breaks PvP, not just CC on its own. I understand the tactics, I understand what needs to be done in order for me to become a skilled player within PvP's current state - I also understand that those tactics are a detriment to the game and everyone playing it. Just because there is a way, doesn't mean it is the right way. There are many great suggestions that would be far better than anything we have now, however I fear it has gotten so bad that Bioware are now dreading making even the slightest change in case they mess things up further... Not that it could actually get any worse.

Give this man a cigar!

There has actually been a time when the TTK was a lot higher than it is now, and it didn't break objective based PvP in the slightest - Patch 1.1.5. That to me felt like the most balanced PvP I have ever experienced in terms of TTK. At the moment though a BiS player can take another BiS player out in 5 seconds flat with some lucky crits, that shouldn't be possible for one person to do in competitive PvP. I used to think 1.2 was bad in terms of TTK, but with the introduction of elite WH gear and bad balancing it has gotten worse, much much worse. You think you're fighting the good ol' fight whilst you proclaim that things are fine the way they are... But are they, really? PvP is in a pretty bad place right now and I wouldn't say it's done the game any favours, would you?

I have no doubt it will seem like a QQ post to some people, hence why I had to iterate. I'm trying to highlight serious issues with PvP that are holding the game back. We all want to SWTOR to be successful, yet ignoring glaring issues claiming they are just L2P issues, like if everyone just L2P it would all be fine, is not helping the situation as clearly people are not learning to play the way the game is currently intending. And there's a very good reason for that, it's because PvP by design is awful at present. People either don't want to learn how to play because they don't enjoy the way the game is trying to make them play, or they can't learn how to play because the game, by design, is making it too prohibitive for them to learn how to play. It takes months to get full BiS WH in a very inhospitable environment. Many people have found it too inhospitable already which is why numbers have been dwindling for months on end. I genuinely fear for the future of this game as PvP in it's current state will put off potential FTP customers once they have gone up against a few BiS WH pre-mades, I am 100% certain of that.