Can't help but noticing that the thread basically died as soon as the first REAL juvenile comment was posted...k see ya guys, I guess...whatever.

Yeah, so if you stop trying to simply pick apart my previous posts and actually read them, you'd see that I've already answered most if not all your questions to me. But whatever, lemme rehash for the narrow-minded. There are too many reasons a person could potentially go into 50 PvP (without at least recruit gear) for you to just generalize in such an enormous way by flat-out calling it a selfish gesture. And you can't know what they all are, because you're not those people. Re-read my previous posts for details. I do agree with you about wanting competition (because yes, close matches are more fun than one-sided ones), but not to the extreme that I want everybody to wear at least BM gear. And yes, there are ways to achieve this (see the dude who posted right before this one). For a change of pace, you could actually help your team mates out instead of whining and posting on the forums about how the "green and blues" are ruining your PvP fun. Compensate! Since you can't control the way they think about the situation, you might as well either adapt, compensate, or change your outlook, 'cuz at this point that's all you can really do. Which brings me to my next rehash. I called certain people elitists, because instead of taking the time to help people out in PvP matches, so they'll fit your definition of "on par," they come onto the forums to complain and demand that everybody get BM'd or don't PvP. It's pretty self-centered to be a cross section of the entire mass of people and then to tell the rest of that entire mass to do it your way or don't do it at all. So LOL@ the self righteous calling me selfish. Seriously, this --> xD

LOL "Your" content sphere. The arrogance. And sorry, but this "burden" to your playstyle is a result of him playing HIS game that HE pays for HIS way. That's part of the whole MM part of MMORPG. You can either stay in the WZ or exit the WZ. Or you could get a premade together. Those are your choices. Helping or hurting the team is irrelevant at this point. You have no right to tell people not to PvP just because you don't like the way they do it. EDIT: Oh, and another thing. I still haven't heard a single person address the whole "You guys don't want less than recruit geared's on your team, but you sure don't mind stomping the crap outta them when they're on the opposing team." What's up with that? Kinda double standard-ish. If it's opposing factions, then who cares? But what about when for example on the server I play on where one faction greatly outnumbers the other and your teams goes up against a same-factioned team? You could still be PUG'd with any of them at any time. Better fix this by writing to BioWare to tell them to make sure whenever you queue up not to put any "less-than-recruited's" on your team. Ridiculous.

That's right. That's what I said. You got it. You can read. I said "elitists" as someone calling elitists out on how hard they're coming down on people that don't agree with them on the recruit armor issue. I came down on people because they were coming down on people for not agreeing with them. That doesn't make me elitist, because I don't treat people like elitists treat people when it comes to PvP. I just call them out on it. So congrats, you got it. This whole idea of "do it my way or leave" is just stupid and incredibly narrow minded. Like I've said several times already, no one's apologizing to you people for not falling in line with your stupid idea. Regardless of benefits that may come from it or consequences that may also come, there are people who either can't or won't do what you want them to just to accommodate you, and their reasons are their own. You don't have to understand. You just have to accept it. So yeah, I called the elitists elitists. EDIT: And just to clarify, I'm not calling EVERYONE supporting the idea elitist. There are some of the pro-recruit armor people that are just defending the point. I mean the people who imply the rest are useless. The holier-than-thous...the high-and-mighty...you know, the "do it my way or you're nothing" people. Press back a few times and re-read. You'll find 'em.

Dude...I bought the stupid recruit gear and ground up the comms to fully BM out. I'm not one of those people that "refuses" to do this. I'm just saying stop being so harsh. I mean this stupid thread has gone on and on for pages and pages now, back and forth, back and forth between like three or four different opposing sides each with their own arguments, some pretty decent, and some not worth the time it took to read them. They've read it, man. They get it! Make your arguments, do whatever you want, that's not the point. The point is ease off on people. People with the knowledge to make others better PvP'ers should impart that knowledge. It not only helps them but it helps you too by getting more wins in WZs. But don't be jerks about it, and def stop trying to cram it down people's throats. Trying so forcibly to get someone to do something you want them to do only makes them even less inclined to do it. If people are gonna make the choice to do something, they wanna feel like they made the choice and not that they were pressured into it. Just give people a break, man. Like I said, pages and pages. If they haven't seen your explained benefits of buying stupid recruit gear and decided to by now, then they've probably decided not to. Pages and pages...they get it. At ease, gentlemen.

Exactly. All the elitist pieces of work want everybody to fall in line with what they've deemed the criteria for them to be "of any use at all" in PvP. Guess what, guys. Your horrible high-and-mighty attitudes could be contributing to the fact that some people don't give a crap that you think recruit gear should be mandatory to enter a level 50 WZ. This isn't basic training, and you aren't drill instructors. I'm betting the way you're trying to "commandeer" PvP is a big reason more people don't consider it fun. People wanna play their own way because they've figured out how to have their own brand of fun in the game, which includes the way they PvP. Now before you start spewing gibberish or degrading them further with crap like "if they think dying in 3 seconds flat over and over is fun, or screwing over their team is fun, or being completely useless is fun...blah blah blah," know that you guys have painted this skewed painting of a definitive black-and-white end-all picture of what happens when you PvP at 50 without at least recruit gear, and you're basically the only ones who care about this picture, 'cuz most other people have a different perspective than yours, and there's nothing wrong with that. People like you are too competitive when it comes to the PvP aspect of MMO's, because of some misguided desire to prove your dominance whether it be through your perception of your own intellect or by pasting people all over the WZ. Again, it's a game and an MMO at that, which means you have to play with other people. If you don't wanna help contribute to making it fun for everybody involved, that's fine. But at least stop proactively doing the opposite and adding to the expanding gap between you "play this way or leave" types and the normal people just trying to have fun and PLAY A GAME. This is getting ridiculous now. All you die-hards...or was it blowhards...meh, same thing in this case...need to stop trying to tell people how to play their game. People do what's fun for them, and Jeffor is right. It's this sort of crap that contributes to it not being as fun.

I think there's a lot of merit in this proposed explanation. The only thing I'm not sure if I agree with or not is the part where "Each subsequent stun only works half as long as the previous one." I mean I agree with the idea of diminishing returns on stun duration vs resolve, but I'm not sure halving it each time is quite enough. Let's say you're the guy at the door planting the bomb. The other team is gonna focus on you. So that would mean a four second stun (offset by your rising resolve and a stun breaker or two) if applied by different enemies each time so as to keep it on you and not have the stun be on cools, would only last about 7.5 seconds (since the game mechanics like half seconds so much), right? I mean isn't that about a half second less than most mezzes? If that many people are on you, I'd think 8 seconds would still be enough to get you pasted or pretty close. Now as part of your answer to this question, you might say that once the bomber gets full resolve it doesn't matter any more, BUT... I read the resolve guide a while back, and since then I've been noticing so many times where someone will be stunned/rooted/whatever and have a full white bar under their HP, but yet still just stand there and be immobile. Are they using their breakers way too early, or do they just not know that once your white bar fills up, you use it and get back to ghosting people?

This is also true. I too found out the hard way you can't circumvent the stupid lower tiers of gear and just straight buy BM gear for when you hit 50. It's dumb. We earn the comms, they're ours, who cares what we spend them on? We should be able to buy BM gear or whatever else can be bought with comms as we gradually become able to afford it. Leave the level restrictions and def leave the valor restrictions, Axe the "cannot buy until 50." I suppose the argument to this will be something similar to the expertise argument, where you have to play PvP to get better at PvP, translating for purposes of this specific idea into "if everybody could just buy the top PvP gear and put it on as soon as they hit 50, there'd be no way to tell who was more experienced and who was less experienced at PvP. But wait...doing away with "buyer's current level" restrictions would...make PvP more based on who had more skill, AND close the gap a bit more between PvP'ers, taking away some of these people elitist attitudes. OMG!! BioWare, please don't read this thread!! This solution makes too much sense!!

This. Because it's actually a good idea with simple yet awesome logic.

Dude, this is a discussion between some people and some more people, not some people and some more people and an attorney. Nobody thinks you're smarter than them or more right than they are because you possess the seemingly yet deceptively flawless ability to articulate so exquisitely through tactile dexterity the conceptualizations which are spewing forth from your noggin. And unethical? Both hilarious and ridiculous. 'Cuz I'm sure this conversation ever had anything to do with ethics ever. /sarcasm Your attempt to belittle someone or some people through your attempt at conveying a higher intelligence was both un-necessary and unwarranted, and it kinda almost borders on self-righteousness. Meh... And I hope this isn't considered trolling, and if it is, I'll consider editing it out for purposes of this discussion, but I love that this guy (LenrocNewDawn) typed all this and only quoted another dude for saying "Yada Yada Yada." xD

This. Exactly this, and absolutely this. And _Zorth_? So let me get this straight... NOT ONLY do you want people to have a sort of mandatory set of gear in order to even ENTER a level 50 WZ, but upon hearing any number of the various reasons people can't, don't, or won't have said set, now... Now you actually want them to have TWO sets of armor to accomodate you????? Again, are you people even hearing yourselves?!! Dude! If it's too much for whatever reason for people to get one set of armor, what in the absolute holy mother of PvP in MMOs makes you think they'll even THINK about screwing around with getting TWO ENTIRELY SEPERATE SETS?!?!?!?!?! HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHHAAHAAHAHAAAAA!!!!! Ah, the gamer in me thinks you're crazy, but the sociopath in me LOVES you!! And also this too. Staalker? Good sir, I salute you. Again 'litists, it's a game and same as you don't care about other people's thoughts or reasons on the matter, nobody's apologizing to you, 'cuz nobody cares about yours. ...two sets of armor. Thank you. I haven't laughed that hard since the very first time I saw "The Whole Nine Yards." I love you guys. I always get great laughs when I come to the PvP forums.

I'm sick of hearing about what people consider an "excuse." Like I said earlier, I progressed up the tiers of gear getting recruit and then BM in the process. I'm decent at PvP. But I do WZs. In fact, and you people that wanna flame me for what I'm about to say can save it for someone who gives a crap, but I have never been to, done, or even heard of Outlaw's Den until I started going into the PvP forums. Yet, I'm still BM'ed. So maybe people new to PvP'ing in SWTOR and just starting out don't have enough information to start with to know which questions to ask to get that sort of knowledge. You people really need to stop being all high and mighty and just get over yourselves. In case you haven't noticed, no one this thread applies to is apologizing to the great and powerful you(s) for not being your version of competent, skilled, or otherwise awesome at PvP. Seriously, get over yourselves. People are not stupid, selfish, incompetent, or anything else you've deemed them to be just because for whatever reason they don't have recruit gear. They're just people, same as you, and TBH I'm shocked that you've QQ'd about it this long. Just get over yourselves.

Lol This isn't even my thread, and I'm not advocating for the removal of CC from the game. Originally, I only expressed that I too, dislike being snared/rooted as much of the time in matches as I am, same as the others. Then I elaborated. I don't believe that anywhere in my posting I said I wanted it removed or whatever the OP wanted. It's not even a crusade, dude. I just jumped on the "Ugh! Too much CC!" bandwagon. Sorry if I made it seem like my life's goal to get it removed or whatever. xD

I know. I get that I wasn't a priority target in that match. I don't necessarily think it means I was carried though. On that particular team there were only two with higher stats than me. I will concede however to the notion that it could've been just a "lucky" match for me. I don't think it would explain why most of the others on the team were lower on the board though. And at the time, I was only just beginning my PvP "career," so having the third highest stats COULD mean the imps sucked worse, I'll give ya that. Then again, I don't know how they were geared, how long they'd been PvP'ing, whether they were pre-made or a pug. What I do know is that PvP in this game's not black and white. There's a huge grey area that the notion of "have at least a recruit set or don't PvP" tries to eliminate. That of course will never happen. I was just saying deal with it or don't. And congratulations man, you're a much better PvP'er than I am. That's not sarcastic, I mean it. That's dedication, and I admire that...unless of course you're one of those holier-than-thou elitists. Anyway, now that I'm fully BM'ed out, I know exactly how good I am, and I know exactly how good I am not. I'm also very much aware of my limits, and I know I'm not NEARLY as amazing as some of the dudes I see. Then again it's not a huge issue for me. I PvP when I need the comms to buy PvP stuff.

Ugh, and on and on it goes... First of all, I did it post 1.2. The toon I did it on was a sentinel under the Watchman tree. I didn't have any pocket healers 'cuz A) I didn't hang around (in range of) anyone specific at all, because B) I just kept running back and forth between the doors to both let my team plant bombs as the attackers and prevent the other team from doing so as defenders. I had no buffs above my health for protection from other team mates, and no bubbles on me either. I just kept moving and "picking off" those I could. Now you can sit at your computer and try to explain down and cheapen how I got those stats all you want, but really when it comes down to it, it's simple. I just kept moving through the clutter of reps and imps using the confusion to my advantage and LoS'ing when necessary. Incidentally, I love that you can run behind the crate in the first room. So helpful... Anyway look man, I'm sorry you're hurt that BioWare didn't consult you first before setting up PvP and how the armor works. Again, the game's not about you. Maybe apply for a job at BioWare next time? And all this crap about "on the backs of their team mates" is just dumb. When people queue up for PvP, they know they have to earn their comms for better armor same as everybody else. If they wanted to ride coat tails, they'd just chill in the bay the whole time and never even jump down. Obviously this is just one example of many, but the point is, I'm guessing when people PvP, at some point they've looked at the price lists on the vendors and know it'll take a bit to get. The logic theoretically would be to get as many of the stupid comms ASAP, so they don't have to screw with the grind an instant longer than necessary. Again, I'm guessing that nowhere in this train of thought does "I'll just get 45 comms here, 50 there, whatever I can get just by doing jack and standing there the whole time. No, most likely they probably want the grind to be over ASAP. Plus, a lot of people are just too competitive to stand around the whole time. For them it's just too tempting to go try to snatch up a turret or snag a few kills. These people are sometimes awesome. ...'cept for when they're the only one guarding an objective and they leave. And calling people stupid for not having the exact thought processes you do is just unwarranted. Before you call someone else stupid for the way they think, look at yourself first. Don't be so judgmental, dude. The game's not about you. It's about all of us. No one has any more say than anyone else. You can either accept that or complain about it some more, but if it means so much to you that you're this up in arms about it, then like I said before either get into a premade "fer all yer PvPin' needs" or get over it. The only person you have control over is yourself, so if you're not happy with the situation, adjust your frame of mind until you are, 'cuz in the end of the day that's all you can do. And to Cashogy: I completely agree with your bit about being tired of being on teams with people that have no clue what to do and cost the match because of it. There are objectives, people! These are more important (in most cases) than how much damage you rack up or your kill count!! And sorry for writing a novel for a reply. I hate reading huge blocks of text too. Sorry about that.

And I can't speak for the aesthetic appeal of the other three classes, but as for JK of course, there's the fact that the recruit armor is so flippin' ugly. That hat? Come on...Ancient Greek meets futuristic robot Samurai... Thank the Force for the "hide head slot" feature.

While I do agree with you about it being about the team and not the individual, I had to read the next part twice, because it's simply just utterly not true. When I started out in PvP, I wasn't doing nearly the damage that others with higher-level gear were, but we still won just as many as we lost, and I was very much a contributing factor. In fact, in my personal goal to better myself in PvP, I wrote down stats I saw on the scoreboard at the end of matches I did pretty decent in. For example in Voidstar once in pre PvP gear I had 201085 damage, 21 kills, 0 deaths, 14 medals. Is this amazing? No way. Is it pretty decent for not having any PvP gear? Absolutely. There's simply no way you can know this to be fact unless of course you're conducting personal interviews with every single person you've ever PvP'd with. You're generalizing, it's not helping your case. Umm, not so much, no. Seeing as how you can still be admitted into WZs without the loadout in question, it's not BioWare's standard at all. They do NOT in fact make it mandatory. They never even say or imply that you must purchase this gear or use that gear and whatnot. They've simply made it available. In fact, YOU are the one trying to make it mandatory. Like I said, you're trying to impose your play style on others, and that's a control issue. I won't say people don't do this, but I very much suspect their motives aren't as dastardly as you're implying. Again, I highly doubt the choice to actively screw over their team is one people ever even consider before queuing up for WZs. Or else what are you suggesting? Maybe if you get put on a crappy team where one or more of the members of that team aren't as geared out as you, maybe your sub should be less than 15$... You know what, I'm gonna submit a ticket, because this insanity has got to stop ASAP. I refuse to pay $15/mo if I inspect my team mates and even a single one has less than recruit gear. This is an outrage. Seriously though, all the die-hard PvP'ers tell all the complainers and QQ'ers that have issues with some aspect of other of PvP to "L2P" or "suck it up" or any of several other "get over it" type answers. That's what needs to happen here. People will play SWTOR how they will play SWTOR and some of that will inevitably involve PvP, and guess what? How they choose to play their accounts, their toons, their subs, it's not up to you. So umm...maybe get over it? Like I said, you know where the exit button is.

First of all, you're changing the concept. The variety of "selfish" I'm talking about is the one referred to earlier where people were painting this idiotic picture of people not buying recruit gear BECAUSE they wanted to inhibit the rest of their team's chances of winning WZ matches. Second, I'm fully aware of everyone's own personal desire to gain comms, gear, weapons, and all sorts of other stuff. I'm also aware that while some do the WZ's for the PvP aspect and what it is in itself, some do it as a means to acquiring the aforementioned items. For them, it's a means to an end. I don't call that selfish. I call that grinding, and everybody does it in game in some form or another. One of those forms happens to be PvP. The difference though, is that with grinding for comms or better gear or whatever, the rewards are what consumes people's motives, not this ridiculous notion that they're only PvP'ing in hopes of screwing team mates out of winning. That's just dumb. You're trying to cross two different concepts to back up a point that should've never been attempted to be made. When you inspect everybody before the match starts to make sure their gear is up to your standards, if you find someone's loadout you're not happy with, well, the exit button is at the bottom right under the map. Or you could create a premade. Of you could help them get up to your silly standard by staying in the match and helping them get their money or comms. Or, and I'm just going out on a limb here, those people that think it's selfish not to come with at least recruit gear could worry about themselves and stop trying to impose their method of play onto others...unless of course they're willing to pay their subs for them each month. This is just a control issue. EDIT: I must apologize. I realize after reading my post that I was very VERY horribly wrong about something. If you've changed where your map is via the UI editor, then your exit button might not be at the bottom at all. Please accept my humblest apologies. I'm very deeply sorry.

To all you people that are talking about how selfish it is of someone to enter a WZ not having at least recruit gear: are you hearing yourselves? I mean selfish? Really? That's the dumbest attempt at a justification for you wanting people to play the game your way I've read on the forums to date. I mean do you really think people consciously make a decision to screw over their team by not having your set standard of gear? Do you really think people consciously make a decision to contribute to their team losing? *Do you really think it's their intention to cause their team to do poorly? Do you think these thoughts ever even cross players' minds? So you're saying there are players in the game whose goals are to screw *you* over in PvP? Are you kidding me? Get off your high horses and stop being so high-and-mighty. Look how ridiculous your train of thought has gotten. Just get over yourselves. * - I know some opposite factioned players have had "dummy toons" join opposing factioned teams as dead weight to ensure their side wins, but you and I know this isn't what we're talking about. "Selfish..." rofl RIDICULOUS.

I think it all comes down to this. The fact this question was even asked directly implies that winning fights in PvP is too reliant on CC, and not reliant enough on skill. If this doesn't show that CC has become a crutch, then nothing will. I understand that players of all classes have the potential to work a CC (of whatever sort, stun, mez, etc.) into their alphas to maximize their effectiveness, but I don't think that's really the point. It's the fact that everyone relies so heavily on them and the whole CC'ing system as opposed to knowing what attack/ability your opponent is doing to you and countering with the proper/necessary ability of your own. That's player skill in PvP. CC is simply too large a percentage of that action/reaction process, and the resolve system only encourages us to lean further on it as a crutch.

Is there any sort of widely used ##/##/## for PvP using the Immortal tree? Or is this just not "the way it's done?" I'm mainly looking to set up his PvP build from the get-go, so when I get to lvl 50 I don't have to mess with changing builds and rearranging my quickbars/relearning where all my moves are. I had a lvl 48 JK guardian before, but I didn't PvP with him, so I'm guessing it was a totally different playstyle (rotations, alphas, etc.)

Hey guys. I know there are prolly a quadrillion threads on this already, but I'm lvl'ing a jug tank and I plan to PvP with him. I was wondering if anybody had the ##/##/## setup and a link to show what points were put where, or a link to one of the threads already in progress about this question. I guess at this point, I'm looking to get more or less the cookie cutter PvP tank build if there is one, and tweak it to my personal play style if need be. Thanks in advance.

This. One hundred million billion zillion gajillion percent this. This thread was ridiculous from the start. It's not about who's got how much money or how easy or hard it is to get the money to buy recruit armor. It's idiotic to insist that someone meet your own personal minimum requirements before even setting foot in a WZ. You're basically saying to them "be the PvP'er and the player I want you to be, or don't PvP." Get over it. When you pay ppl's subs for them, then you can tell them how to play. Until then, stop trying to impose your will and your ego on people just because they're not doing exactly what you want them to. Maybe these people won't last as long in a match without all the expertise, but again, that's not up to you. The only thing you can control about a PvP match is yourself and your own toon. So stat up, gear up, and load out, but stop trying to control other people. People play this game for different reasons, and those reasons are their own and not yours, and there's nothing wrong with that. I started out with recruit gear and eventually upgraded to full BM, but when it comes down to it, so what? It was a choice. I did what I wanted. If I were to choose not to get all this PvP armor, that would be fine too. Yes. It would be fine, because *I* pay my sub, not you.

I have to say I agree with this thread. In PvP, I spend a bigger chunk of my time stunned or otherwise rooted than what seems normal. I mean if I'm fighting someone and they are just better than me (i.e. they use their cc's on me effectively/at the right times), that's one thing. But when I'll spend two thirds of a match rooted...ARGH!! Makes me not wanna play PvP, since I'm not able to play PvP...feels like I'm just queuing up so I can get to a bunker or turret and then just stand in one spot and wait for a ranged to take me out from afar. Add the fact I'm melee to that frustration, and then also add that I have like ONE real cc breaker ability. I stopped PvP'ing on that toon, because of all the stupid crap being in favor of classes that aren't mine. Examples available upon request. PvP is just horribly imbalanced in certain ways at the moment and the whole notion of CCWTOR is one of them. I've learned my lesson. Ranged FTW.

I have to agree with what Dozer said about playing objectives. Ppl not doing what they're supposed to in matches is what kills PvP. I know this isn't ppl's favorite PvP, but take huttball for example. When I get put on a team, first thing I do (and this remains my priority throughout the entire match) is to first make sure my team gets the ball. Then NO MATTER WHAT I'M DOING (the only exception is if I'm double-teaming someone attacking our ball carrier), I'll stop and run for the furthest catwalk, the one closet to the enemy goal line. If the ball carrier needs help, I'll run back and start slicing. But my point is when my team has the ball I'm always looking to get in position to help us score. Now all that being said, I can't stand it when I'm running to the enemy catwalks, and I look over and see one single team mate off in the corner just fighting one other guy for ten minutes. That guy only makes us a seven man team 'cuz at that point, that dude is useless. Now granted this moron's opponent is doing the same to the other team, essentially balancing out the number of useful players, but if you're gonna do that, why queue? Just go to open PvP or go duel somewhere. At that point, you're getting a lot of your comms by riding the coat tails of your other team mates. The various PvP matches have objectives which when achieved, they help your team win much faster. Yeah yeah, heavy hitters like to have the highest damage on the scoreboard at the end. But don't be that previously described dead weight. Get your damage on by PLAYING THE OBJECTIVES, 'cuz I agree, not doing so hurts your team more than helps it. Main point, don't get so caught up in what you're doing that you lose sight of what you're actually supposed to be doing. This is why I think ppl pug's are bad, and this is what I think ruins PvP.