If your DPS is sub-par, you should be removed? That is the point?

more important than pvp? definitely. the % of players that pvp is pretty low compared to pve.

Just a simple poll to see what operatives @ lvl 50 would like to see Bioware do in a NEAR future patch. Just pick the best 1 or 2 options. Put the numbers you chose and also mention your valor rank+server. (Also assume everything includes Scoundrel abilities/talents) Concealment : A. Reinstate 50% armor pen on Acid blade, remove damage nerf on Hidden strike, but keep knockdown change. B. Have Hidden strike no longer require stealth while 2 Tactical advantages are present. C. Have Backstab no longer have positional requirements while the target is poisoned. D. Add a chance in "Cull" talent for shiv to strike twice E. Add more usefulness to Overload shot in our rotation (Faster animation+Secondary effect) Medicine: A. Recuperative nanotech a chance to heal twice in a single tick. B. Add to Toxic Screen: Cause toxic scan to increase the healing the target takes by 5% for 10 seconds. C. Change Sedatives to effect corrosive dart D. Endorphin Rush: Now allows healing abilities with a cast time to be able to be casted on the move while adrenaline probe is active C.

yea I guess I can see both sides of the argument. Perhaps increasing the strength of our Tactical Advantage damage buff and abilities that require it may be the boost we need? I did not see anyone take this route in suggestions. It would not be too powerful since the abilities consume the tactical advantages (combo points) and making something like Lacerate stronger would be a nice alternative in our rotation to make up for a lack of "Execute" ability. Or they could even go the route of, "when the operative has 2 tactical advantages built up, Hidden strike no longer requires stealth OR backstab no longer requires positional one could even theory-craft/argue that since Hidden strike has an energy cost in the first place, they originally intended to give us a way to use it out of stealth but perhaps just never did it.

ugggh. Thank goodness for the ignore feature. It was like saying 1+1=2 and another "person" (got warned for stating age) comes along and will stand by that it does not equal 2.

You still don't get it, whether or not they used the term out of context THEY STILL CLAIMED it was based off database formulas NOT data mining. Period, end of story. Secondly, incorrect again, because their HARD data as you say, again can only comprehend 10-20% of the outcome/root cause where as DIRECT PLAYER TESTING does 80-90%. Lastly, we do have an idea, as it has been PROVEN. For instance, any video even just as an example of an operative/scoundrel PVPing before any of the nerfs where the operative/scoundrel was NOT using any adrenals or Expertise buffs, the damage was very close to balanced. That right there is evidence enough, at least to someone understands the chain of events from all the nerfs.

I think a "Shadow-step" ability is the best way to go. But they also need to revert the first nerfs on Armor pen and hidden strike because the following changes (50s bracket, Biochem, and surge) did everything that was needed to balance operatives/scoundrels. I like the idea of debuffs, but I think we need what every other class gets in their talents, and that is RNG. RNG as hated as it is, is a GREAT way to make a class more viable in PVE without making them TOO powerful in PVP. Especially because they are more easily balanced with internal cooldowns. I'd prefer if they just added to a single talent in each of the trees that added a % chance when using X ability to automatically execute X ability twice. Just make sure its not crappy like the corrosive dart one.

You just answered your own question, at the same time reiterating the underlying issue I have already stated. Lack of testing (Direct player experimentation). You can agree to disagree all you want but it still stands (not just based on what the devs stated either) Data Mining =/= Metrics Data Mining is the incorrect way to change/balance a game without taking a look at the metrics Changing/Balancing the game based on metrics/data mining is the incorrect way WITHOUT doing direct player testing.

Actually you are. It has already been stated they based it off their database formulas (and they used the word metrics). Nothing however, has been said about collecting DATA (AKA Mining) from live servers, which would be even more stupid to begin with because, again the mass amount of factors that come into play (level/gear/skill/buffs)

Wrong again. Their metrics are from their database formulas, NOT from players. They could have of course misused the word "Metrics" the same way they did "Telemetry" and "Metrics" to them could actually be just "Forum Whines+no evidence". PTS, Direct experimentation, is however from player and player perspective. Which is where 99% of any balance change must be tested as it effects the players, and the ACTUAL metrics(Formulas) will only show like 10% of the outcomes/possible root cause. Considering they have already proven time and time again that the PTS is just for advertisement status, and not for actual testing or listening to the testers/evidence driven feedback, I am surprised you actually would argue the above.

Using a word out of context because someone else did the same before you does not make it right either, fyi. Secondly, sure in SOME cases metrics are the first go-to line of testing BEFORE direct experimentation is done (EX: in game PTS testing). However, just because the first was done, does not mean the latter is no longer important, if anything it is the most important factor. So still a fail, and my original post still awaits someone to actually post THEIR OWN, thoughts on the matter with intelligent data/observations to back it up.

Using words like telemetry without even understanding their meaning or how out of context they are for your own posts much less any of mine= -1 +1 for attempt though, I see your trying very hard to correct a mistake of looking ignorant, it's just having the opposite effect you desired. Every part of what you said is in the same boat as well, so Rinse+Repeat my above post.

Again you still fail to see any logic and by the attitude would guess you are in the majority class wise (Sorc/Sage/Commando/Merc).. A. Before all nerfs there were no 50s bracket. Ops/scounds were performing better than any other class on SUB lvl 40 players because thay are in design, front load burst. B. With 50s bracket, the only concern that made them overpowered was the target being knocked down for too long with an un-desireable cooldown on CC breaks. C. The Warzone Adrenal+Biochem adrenal stacking were allowing PVP geared operative/scoundrels to hit 6-8k Crits on NON PVP geared lvl 50 opponents. Even though both of these had and have a lengthy cooldown, this was deemed too powerful. So a shared cooldown was in place. D. The DR and %per point on Surge was nerfed further reducing ALL classes (which includes ops/scounds) Max end damage on crits (which COULD hit 5-6k WITH Adrenal+relic stack) yet had a lengthy cooldown. Returning the 50% armor pen on AB/FR and the damage on HS/SF would NOT in ANYWAY shape or form even return them to HALF of their glory before ALL of the above changes because it was the ABOVE changes that were making them out-of-line NOT what was nerfed in the first place (minus the knockdown change)

You realize that made no sense in relation to what I posted right?

So now, you must obviously realize that you need to undo the armor pen nerf on Acid Blade/Flechette round and the Hidden strike/Shoot first damage nerf. You can however,KEEP the knockdown+resolve reduction to Jarring Strike/K.O. As the full duration was too long to keep a player out of the fight. The 50's Bracket + Biochem/buff stack nerf + Surge nerf should have been done FIRST, since even 2/3 of those already fixed ANY problem people were having with operative/scoundrels doing too much damage. If you think this has not been proven to be true, feel free (to the devs) to ACTUALLY test them yourselves or ACTUALLY give us character copy to PTS with the nerfs mentioned in the first paragraph lifted to test ourselves.