So I respec'd to LOLBURST!!1!one1!! (aka, Scrapper) for a while again, because I was sick and tired of getting 3-5 medals per match. Such bad rewards sure does make going for Battlemaster seem like a horrific grind (especially since we never really hold Ilum for more than 20 minutes at a time). Anyway, playing a bit as dps on two different characters (Scoundrel and Sage) really just makes the original topic even more apparent; Scoundrel/Operative healers are garbage compared to Sage/Sorcerer and Commando/Mercenary. When I get on an Op/Scoundrel healer on either of my characters, the only things that are going to keep them alive for any length of time is a teammate helping peel me off, or a significant amount of cross-healing. It's literally one of the easiest and safest kills there is; interrupt Underworld Medicine, follow it up with a stun ~3 seconds later, and you win. Thanks to Upper Hand requirements, Op/Scoundrel healers have nothing to fall back on after that "main heal" interrupt, whereas the other two healers do (on top of having more ability to kite, escape, and/or tank). I honestly think it's easier to kill a guarded Operative/Scoundrel healer than either of the other two without guard.

Bump because this issue is so grossly under reported (maybe because there are so few of us to begin with?) I'm sick and tired of being forced into panic-healing mode by bads that got free Battlemaster thanks to Imperials holding Ilum almost 24/7. Gimme something that lets me effectively kite. My Sage - even when I have 0 points in the healing tree - has far better survivability. As soon as 1 or 2 decent players in a game realize that my Scoundrel is healing, I'm pretty much neutralized for the entire match. Playing the class/spec combination in PvP makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a rusty spoon.

I agree with the other posters that mentioned how inconsiderate it is of others to leave Warzones early because your team sucks. So what if you have time constraints, do you really think that you're the only one? If you only have an hour to play, what do you think about the poor guy that got sucked into your spot who told his wife/girlfriend/parents/kids/etc..."just one game" ? Personally, I'd love to see them implement some enormously punitive measures for people who habitually leave warzones early (not counting disconnects, obviously). Maybe something like, if you left more than X number of games over a 1 week period, fully reset your valor to rank 0 and delete all PvP gear from the character. This is an MMO, not a single player RPG; you are not the sole hero here, and you are not special. Stop being inconsiderate of your fellow players.

If you're referring to me, I was quite clearly comparing healing spec'd Scoundrels/Operatives to Sages/Sorcerers, and there's pretty much no burst whatsoever available to deep Sawbones specs. In fact, I'd say that healing spec'd Scoundrels/Operatives have the worst PvP damage output in the game, at least if they're actually doing anything close to what they've spec'd for. The energy regen mechanic really cripples the damage you can do unless you're fighting bad players in terrible gear. Since the nerf, my Shoot First usually hits around 900-1,100 non crit, and I might, once in a blue moon, have a Sabotage Charge or Charged Burst crit land me the 2.5k single-hit medal; as long as my target is a fresh 50 and my +Power relic is active. 'Course, due to the aforementioned energy mechanic (and poor survivability) I don't get to use those abilities very often anyway. I stand by my initial post; Healing spec'd Scoundrels and Operatives need some survivability, utility, and damage buffs. Maybe not super duper enormous ones, but buffs none-the-less. Scrapper and Concealment specs also need some buffs to survivability, but that should come with further nerfs to their damage. Of course, multiple other classes need damage nerfs, as well. Assuming that we want skill-based PvP, that is.

My Sage has inferior gear to my Scoundrel, yet still boasts better survivability. This is true even when the Sage has 0 points in the healing tree (and the gap between the two classes is even larger in Huttball). Healing spec'd Operatives and Scoundrels are quite simply inferior to similarly spec'd/geared Sages and Sorcerers, and I doubt that anyone who has both classes at level 50 could honestly disagree with me. I didn't personally realize just how big the gap between the two classes was until I started my Sage - it was quite a rude awakening.

Survivability largely depends on who you're fighting. My Scoundrel is in primarily Champion gear with a couple Centurion pieces (blaster pistol, chest, and 1 implant, if I remember correctly), so I'm not exactly undergeared - at least by reasonable (Republic) standards. I'm currently Rank 56 (oh boy is it slow to rank as a healer; my Sage is already almost caught up and hasn't invested nearly the same time and effort), so Battlemaster isn't in the cards yet. When I'm in games with bad players who turn around to fight someone else every time I Dirty Kick them and/or run around an obstacle, then yea my survivability is pretty good. In those cases I can sometimes go entire matches without ever dying, but all it really takes is 1 or 2 players who know what they're doing and I'll get rolled pretty easily. Sometimes I can even get rolled by bads, since the Imperials hold Ilum basically 24/7 and such an enormous number of them are Battlemasters (seriously, I'll see more Imperial Battlemasters in one single game than I'll see on the Republic side in a week). My Sage, on the other hand, is wearing inferior gear and has 0 points in the healing tree right now, yet still has superior survivability. Force Speed, a Knockback that roots for 2-5 seconds, 30m range on interrupt/snare/stun, and the ability to remove every melee snare except for Tendon Blast (which is the least common one to be hit with) all together makes for some pretty solid kiting ability (not to mention Huttball utility with all that + Rescue). I'll also point out that Operative/Scoundrel healers are by far the easiest for me to kill on my Sage (or my Scoundrel for that matter, during the rare times I'm spec'd DPS). The only way they can possibly escape me is with Disappearing Act, and that usually only works if I'm being newbish and not anticipating it with a Force in Balance at the ready.

Healing spec'd Scoundrels and Operatives need some buffs to survivability, escape option(s), damage output (probably in the form of much lower energy consumption on attacks, rather than messing with per-hit damage too much), and utility. LOLBURST!!1!one!!1! (aka, Scrapper or Concealment) spec'd Scoundrels and Operatives need some buffs to survivability and some nerfs to damage output. They're hardly the only ones that need to do less damage, though. If there's to be any sort of skill-based PvP in this game, the time-to-kill for certain classes/specs simply needs to be increased; Scoundrels and Operatives are still offenders in this regard, just not the only ones. Once the damage output comes down a bit, I think we can have a realistic discussion about the ability to close gaps easier. As it stands right now it'd just make things feel even more like a first person shooter, "Oh he blew the 3 minute CD to break my stun, then snared me and started running - LOLGAPCLOSE LOLCRIT LOLCRIT - k he's dead."

So I took http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb50/Wheem_NewbAlert/Screenshot_2012-02-14_22_51_20_765625.jpg on my Sage, a couple hours after hitting 50 (and rank 49 Valor, LOL MEDALS SO EZ). My Scoundrel is much better geared, but couldn't even put up those kind of numbers by cheesing with a Shrap Bomb hybrid spec a while back; and most of that damage wasn't particularly useful (except for interrupting bomb planters). On the other hand, my Sage is quite capable of killing someone with the hybrid spec that I'm running, and when I get jumped by one of the people that can ~4 shot me (which in my current gear seems like almost everyone), I actually stand somewhat of a chance of escaping; my Scoundrel just has to panic-heal and hope one of the PUGs decides to try and peel off me (I think I stand a better chance of getting run over by a leprechaun riding a unicorn, irl). Seriously - Scoundrel/Operative healers need some damage and utility comparable to what Sages/Sorcerers get (with comparable specs). Though to be completely honest, I think Scoundrels and Operatives should probably get a tad less than Sages and Sorcerers have now (which is still a buff from their current state), and Sages/Sorcs may need to have a stare down with the nerf cannon.

Sure, a Scoundrel/Operative healer can remove a snare from their fellow advanced class members - but that melee spec'd player can do the same; ergo, you can't really kite them. And while that's the only melee snare that a Sage/Sorc healer (or hybrid) can't remove, they can still kite them better than a Scoundrel or Operative healer can. They can snare for the same 50%, then use a knockback and/or force speed to get some necessary distance, where they can use LOS and/or ranged stun/cc to keep kiting for a bit. You can say, "tech is to physical as force is to mental" if you want, and while it's true in a sense, that's not a perfect comparison for PvP. The reality is that Restoration is significantly superior to Triage in the current state of the game, and its relevant talent is one tier lower in the healing tree as well, making it easier to get for hybrids.

Waste of keyboard strokes. Unless of course you want to post a video of you playing a level 50 Scoundrel/Operative healer and successfully kiting people who aren't bads.

The more I level and PvP with my Sage, the more depressing it is to PvP on the Scoundrel. I opened up with Champion +Power Trinket -> Shoot First on a Marauder last night in an Alderaan Warzone and did ~960 damage, after which he spun around and hit me for a tad over 3k. Since the most recent Scoundrel damage nerfs (which I think were certainly needed for Scrapper, by the way), I've not even been able to get the 2.5k damage crit medal. I'm not undergeared either, since I have: Champion - hat, gloves, boots, pants, 2x relics, earpiece, 1x implant, belt, bracer Centurion - scattergun, blaster pistol, 1x implant, chest No battlemaster yet, since ranking up as a healer is godawful slow (I'm at 55 or 56 now, and my Sage is already ranked in the 40's). 'Course even if our per-ability damage got ramped up a bit, there's still the issue of energy usage - against any decent-to-good team it's hard to spare energy for anything other than an occasional blaster whip (for EMP) or Thermal Grenade (to interrupt capping). Still, one single press of a Tracer Missile key from a lone player is enough damage to send me ducking out of LOS to heal (600+ expertise be darned). All my 1v1 fights consist of panicked self-healing with an occasional Vital Shot, Blaster Whip, and MAYBE a Quick Shot or Back Blast if they're pretty bad and/or woefully undergeared. We really do need some better ways to escape/survive, and man oh MAN would I love a ranged interrupt - playing Huttball on my Scoundrel really makes me miss my Sage.

People who claim to survive 2-3 dps on them as a Scoundrel or Operative healer are either lying or fighting bads. Sure, there are some Warzones where I feel like an unkillable demi-god that does 500k+ healing (and get <= 5 medals for it, woot!!!), but when I'm actually against decent players that recognize my name, 2/3 or more of my healing is done on myself as I desperately try to escape the melee that are gluing themselves to me - sorry ball carrier, you're on your own. I'd encourage anyone who thinks their Scoundrel or Operative healer is "fine" to go play a Sage or Sorcerer - the difference is night and day. A decent melee player is going to be in my Scoundrel's face pretty much as long as he/she decides to be (except when Dirty Kicked near a pillar without their CC break available). My Sage, on the other hand - LOL. Have fun when you're knocked back (and possibly rooted for 2-5 seconds), and I Force Speed away while removing your snare. Restoration and Force Speed alone are borderline godlike, and don't even require any points in the healing tree to be useful (though it certainly helps Restoration to be even better). You can keep your AOE heal and your vastly superior bubble - and you can even have my vanish if you want (as all it really helps is my pride when being zerged by people that don't know how to prepare for it) - but gimme your Restoration and Force Speed; I'm sick of panic healing myself (and crossing my fingers for UH procs) every time a melee with an IQ over 80 decides that they want to kill me. Actually getting some breathing room once in a while sure would be nice. It's actually kinda depressing to play my Scoundrel after leveling up my Sage a bit.

More worthless sophistry. "Ooh ooh ooh, you didn't play Scrapper until level 50 so you don't know how it works! Sucker Punch isn't a cornerstone of the class/spec at all, no sir!" 'Course you also said in another thread that you'd trade away Force Speed for heavy armor, so I dunno why I'm bothering to debate anything PvP related with you. When competitive PvP comes along, I hope you enjoy your TOR equivalent of WoW's 1400's arena ratings. And really, you think I was "QQ'ing" because I pointed out that my Scoundrel couldn't pull the same numbers a month and a half ago that the Vanguard did today? Don't people tend to offer (or "demand") changes be made when they're QQ'ing? Where are my suggestions of raising the level required on X, Y, and Z Vanguard abilities? Or the level reduction on some Scoundrel ones? I know I've seen multiple posts asking for Shoot First to be available earlier, but I've not said that one single time, personally. You're trying to set up a strawman, but suck at it. When it comes to stopping door/turret caps, why would I want to waste Upper Hand on Blaster Volley when Thermal Grenade serves the same purpose at triple the range and without consuming my proc? 150k is roughly typical of what I see most Vanguards doing at 50, though I figured most were probably tank spec'd.

Like I said before, he had a moddable weapon (obviously - everyone gets that from the newbie planet, as far as I can tell), 1 blue item, and the rest were greens. What exactly sounds like QQ? The part where I pointed out that I don't see other people of his same class putting up those sort of numbers? Including the two in that game that were higher level than him, by the way. Maybe the part where I asked how it was HE was doing that sort of damage? Who QQ's about one player doing well? I mean really. If I hated Vanguards and wanted them nerfed, why wouldn't I be making blanket statements about the class' damage always topping charts or some such? Stop being obtuse. Oh, and to address your Scoundrel-related sophistry - LOL. Do you really want to claim that Sucker Punch isn't an absolutely essential part of Scrapper's damage output? You don't need very much experience with the class to figure that out. What, you think during the time that I was spec'd Scrapper that I just dropped into cover and spammed Charged Burst? Please.

Who said anything about Mercs? Vanguards, which I specifically said I wasn't calling for to be nerfed, aren't even the mirror of Mercs - Commandos are. And my Scoundrel is 50 with a little over 500 Resilience, and has been healing spec'd nearly the entire time (though I've farted around with Scrapper a little). My point wasn't to de-level your character, simply to point out that one of the abilities you got a lot of your damage from - Sucker Punch - wasn't available at level 18. I suppose Vanguards have it easier there (as do Sages).

I watched my doors and was trying to get a bomb on that last one when time ran out, don't judge me!

Grats. Now do it at 18 when you can't have Sucker Punch. That's what I'm getting at; some abilities/talents make an enormous difference, but I guess Vanguards get some of their most important ones really early - I honestly haven't checked.

Of course I realize they're different classes, but at level 18 Scoundrels are missing some key abilities relating to that "single target burst." My sage had it significantly better at that level, but does a Vanguard really have so many of their core damage abilities at 18?

Reading comprehension fail alert. Yes, healing helps tremendously (my main is deep heal spec'd, after all). But that can't be all of it, since - as someone else pointed out - my Scoundrel couldn't have pulled those kind of numbers at that level, even if I had several dedicated healers following me around. I'd thought maybe it was AOE, but don't Vanguards only have 1 AOE available at that level? Surely it's not that strong? Maybe so, but he has no clickies. No. He wasn't bad and actually made use of his class abilities. He wasn't one of the ones that doesn't snare and keyboard turns in order to try and catch up. and "go die?" Really? Sounds like someone forgot their midol. LOL The point is that level 18's often don't have that many skills available, but maybe it's different for Vanguards. My Sage had a lot more than my Scoundrel, for sure.

Guess the class (oh noes it's in the URL!) http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb50/Wheem_NewbAlert/Level18Vanguard.jpg He had a legacy, so it's obviously not his first character, but seriously - my Scoundrel wouldn't likely have gotten anywhere near those numbers at level 18, even if I hadn't been a healer. I don't even see the level 49 Vanguards putting up those kind of numbers on my alt, or the 50's on my main. I inspected his gear and he had a moddable weapon (obviously), 1 blue, and the rest greens (level 11-17, iirc). So, what's the secret? Cause I wanna tell it to the rest of the Vanguards on my server... PS Not calling for Vanguard nerfs, though I think PvP damage across the board probably needs to come down a bit, if we really want anything resembling "skill-based" games. LOL @ getting dropped to ~40% in the opener of one level 45 Operative (even though I trinketed) in the game after this SS was taken.

I've never done that on my Sage and still almost always get the 75k healing medal. And getting over 100k isn't that uncommon either (whether full DPS spec or hybrid dps/healing; and before level 50 at that). The damage prevented by your bubble counts as healing, and when coupled with LOS -> Deliverance, it's pretty easy to get a significant amount of healing going.

Stuns, roots, snares, jumps, and pulls not only all apply to Scoundrels and Operatives just like they do Sages and Sorcerers, but we're also less able to deal with them. You really have no idea how wonderful you have it in comparison. You know what I do on my Scoundrel when a melee gets into my face? I either "tank" them right from the get-go, or I use Dirty Kick or Flash Grenade, then walk at 50% speed to try and get out of their LOS so that I actually have a little time to heal myself and/or my team before I have to start tanking them. I emphasize the word "try" there, since in some cases it's simply not possible to LOS them, especially without hurting my team (ie, Huttball). You know what I do in the same situation on my Sage? It really varies. Sometimes I'll knock them off platforms or to the other side of objects (especially powerful on Huttball, but can also put people in crappy locations on the other maps; IE, off a side-turret platform or mid-turret balcony on Alderaan, and followed up with a snare). Sometimes I'll stun, just like on my Scoundrel, but then I'm able to follow that up with a snare removal and/or force speed, so that I'm not stuck moving at 50% of normal speed; this actually allows me to move to a better location than just barely on the other side of the object that I was hugging. When I'm attacked by a melee who's CC immune (whether it's due to resolve or force jump-related talents), my Sage has it even better since I'm still able to remove snares and sprint; while all my Scoundrel can do is stand there and take the hits (I might even survive long enough to out-last their resolve bar if I get really lucky on Upper Hand procs and/or juke an interrupt). Same thing when I'm attacked by ranged classes on my two characters. The Sage can interrupt Skill Missile spam without charging into the enemy team to get in range to do so, and I can follow that up with a ranged stun if necessary. And if my Sage is being Lightning spammed (and possibly taking other ranged damage at the same time)? No problem, use Restoration to remove the snare-portion of the Force Lightning and run out of their LOS; my Scoundrel has to tank all the incoming damage while I 50% walk to an object. Finally, it's quite easy to break a Scoundrel/Operative's vanish if you're prepared for it; seems like most AOE's have about an 8 meter range, and lots of them are instant cast. Force in Balance (Sage ability, easily obtained by healing hybrid spec's, too) makes it fairly trivial. Healing spec'd Scoundrels and Operatives aren't in the same survivability/utility league as Sages and Sorcerers, period. I invite you to start a Scoundrel or Operative healer to PvP with if you don't believe me (just be sure to get to at least level 31 before really making a judgment though; without Emergency Medpac and Emergent Emergencies, Scoundrel healers are especially trashy in PvP).

As far as DOTs go, sure maybe it's an issue of volume; but removal of Force-based abilities can get you out of snares, which is absolutely essential for escaping melee classes. And a Scoundrel/Operative's "vanish" ability reduces healing done and received to 0 for 10 seconds (unless you can opt for a fairly deep sub-spec into Scrapper; and Scoundrel/Operative sub-spec'ing is simply not as powerful as Sage/Sorc sub-spec'ing). Not to mention the fact that knowledgeable players will often stand ready to break your vanish with an AOE, whereas it's much harder to counter a Sage/Sorc's escape mechanisms (note: plural, and shorter cooldowns to boot).

The only way a Scoundrel or Operative can remove as many snares as a Sage or Sorcerer is by using Dodge (and whatever the Operative counterpart is called). It has a 1 minute cooldown, and helps the player to avoid white damage for 3 seconds. Once the snare gets reapplied, we just have to deal with it. What I was originally referring to is Triage (Scoundrel) vs Restoration (Sage). With talents included, both abilities remove Physical and Mental debuffs, while Triage also takes care of Tech, and Restoration gets Force. Removing Force debuffs is vastly superior to removing Tech ones, and I'd trade you in a heartbeat. And that's not even taking into account the other escape/survival mechanisms available to Sages and Sorcerers (knockback, ranged interrupt, ranged stun, ranged snare, force speed, a far superior "bubble" that can be cast on other people, and the base abilities + resource mechanic that actually lets you squeeze out enough damage to potentially 1v1 someone down before their friends show up). I play both classes now, and Sages/Sorcs are absolutely hands-down superior to healing spec'd Scoundrels/Operatives. And even before I started hybrid-spec'ing into healing, my Sage had the better survivability of the two classes.

Play a healing spec'd Scoundrel or Operative and tell me it's strictly a player-skill issue. My Sage can actually kite melee fairly well, while my Scoundrel is forced to tank them for a majority of the time. Considering Scoundrel armor provides what, 5% more mitigation? (against attacks which are actually affected by armor), Scoundrel tanking is pretty much a joke. I don't think very many people appreciate just how amazing it is to be able to remove so many different snares (not to mention Crushing Darkness/Mind Crush). Healers can't tank competent melee very well at all, but Sages and Sorcerers actually standing a chance at escaping from them. All you guys that think Sages/Sorcs are "fine" need to start up some Scoundrel/Operative healers so you can ask for some utility and kiting buffs for us - it's tough to get the word out when there appear to be barely over a dozen of us spread across all servers (ok slight hyperbole there, but we're still incredibly underrepresented compared to Sage/Sorc).