and snares/slows.

/signed Sages/Sorcs are ridiculously overpowered. Too much mitigation and healing for the damage they do. Where's the glass in glass cannon? My Dirty Fighting Scoundrel has 0 chance of beating them equally geared. He'll end up in close to full hitpoints when I go down. There's a big issue with Dirty Fighting Smugglers that needs to be addressed and OP Sages and Sorcs just make it worse. Actually the whole Consular/Inquisitor class is OP. It no wonder 50+% of every warzone I'm in is made up of them. The numbers speak for themselves.

^^^^^ this ^^^^^

Great discussion guys. I have 2 things I'd like to point out. The first point is that both Commando and Sage have greater HPS in normal conditions with far less effort. While some may like to think they play the hardest healer and succeed, is it truly successful class design if only the very skilled players can succeed with it? And secondly, quite a few people commenting here don't have both 50 Sages and Sawbones, I do. I can tell you the difference is night and day in every aspect. Ease of use, survivability, healing per second, resource management, burst healing, damage mitigation are all favoured by the Sage and from my less limited exposure to Commando (level 46 atm) is true for him also. I have a Commando friend who's absolutely unkillable 1v1 and often 2v1, he can heal through any class's DPS at the top gear level. I guarantee that a good Sentinel/Merc will tear the best Sawbones in half despite your claims.

As the original post said, it was mostly directly at PVP. This comment was unnecesarry.

Yeah, its the worst when you're bleeding or dotted and triage is on cooldown, you just bleed out and nothing you can do to stop it. Its a Matrix moment when all time slows to a crawl and you just watch that health bar tick down until you die.

I was excited about this build too and did abuot 10 respecs testing different talents. Great in theory, bad in practice. I tried in both PVE and PVP for a couple of weeks, I was crap at both healing and damage roles because I was consistently out of energy.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Pugnacity is pointless and just makes an already micromanaged class even worse.

Remove the random rewards in PVP, whoever let that pass through to live needs to be shot.

Surprised there haven't been more responses on this issue. Are the Scoundrel forums that quiet?

By the way, thankyou for your reply. Its an interesting discussion. It seems to me you're a Scrapper build normally, you seem to be speaking from that perspective? If I need to pop Disappearing Act its because I'm getting focused and need to get the hell out of there, I aint coming back until I'm in a position out of LOS to either heal myself or heal a team mate. I'm certainly not coming back to Shoot First unless its a guaranteed kill with noone else around.

I know it does, but why should we have to pop one cooldown to make another work? Disappearing Act is our OH $H!T button, I would agree not to change this if Scramble (Dodge talent) had the Consular speed burst.

Pugnacity is the biggest issue Scoundrels have, its unnecessary and a hindrence to our playstyle. We need to get rid of it and give energy regen equal to having it up 100% of the time.

Sawbones are just plain broken right now, I have made a suggestion thread on how to fix us, please contribute to that and hopefully we can have a united front for the devs to pay attention to. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2423610#post2423610

LOL, I played Resto Shaman too. Was good in PVP for a while until they nerfed em into the ground... I thought this time around I'll play a clas like a Resto Druid which I played a lot of pre-Cataclysm and a bit post then moved to Resto Shaman for a change and spent a ton of time gearing that up to have it nerfed Unfortunately the Resto Druid equiv in SWTOR is utter garbage in its current state.

You'll put out a grand total increase of less than 5% total healing in a PVP match. Its a nice bonus, but hardly anything to write home about and doesn't even come close to making us as viable as the other healers. Dunno why I keep getting drawn to the classes in every MMO that are inferior to their counterparts, must be some underdog syndrome I have or something. EDIT: changed % amount coz my math blows big chunks

Sawbones needs a major overhaul, they are far inferior to Sage and Commando healing specs in almost every way, particularly in PVP. I love the idea of Sawbones healing, but in reality it just doesn't cut it and needs a fair bit of work to bring it back to where it should be. I recently made a rant post on how inefficient and annoying Sawbones healing is and I've come to realise that's not really going to solve anything, so here are some suggestions for a better Sawbones. I would encourage discussion on this, but please try and be constructive and respectful to fellow posters with differing opinions. Some of these increases in numbers look huge, but after playing a lot of highend PVP now we really need those numbers to be able to do our job properly. The damage output is insane at Champion+level gear. - REMOVE PUGNACITY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD and give us the same regen you would have with it up 100% of the time. - Kolto Cloud healing needs to target the lowest 4 percentage health targets within 30m range and if self targetted, should heal yourself, plus 3 others. - Kolto Cloud needs healing increased by 50-100%. - Reduce energy cost on all healing abilities by 20%. - Make Alacrity also reduce energy cost on heals, its currently counter intuitive. - Increase damage for Sawbones. - Get rid of the double stacking for our single target HoT, it just makes the class even more "fiddly" than it already is. - Add a HoT to Kolto Pack that does 100% of the current healing value over 12s in addition to the current heal. - Diagnostic Scan heal needs to be increased by 300-500%. - Patient Studies needs to restore 5 energy per crit up from 2. - Increase the healing on Kolto Cloud by 50%. - Increase the healing on Emergency Med Pack by 300% and put a 4s cooldown on it. - Make Emergency Med Pack available without Upper Hand on targets below 30%. - Increase the benefit of Alacrity. Power, crit and surge are all better choices - Increase Dodge duration to 5s. - Increase the healing on Psych Meds (Triage) by 300-500%. - Make Scramble talent give us a speed burst like a Consular. - Make Disappearing Act remove all DoTs or at least put in a talent that does that high in the Sawbones tree. - Put a value on Defense Screen tooltip so we know how much we're mitigating. - Remove the 10s of healing reduction on Disappearing Act for Sawbones. - Remove the vertical beam graphics on XS Freighter Flyby in PVP. - Reduce the activation time of XS Freighter Flyby by 1s. - Give the Shoot First knockdown to all specs of Scoundrel. And lastly, this doesn't relate directly to Sawbones but I just have to say... WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND IMPLEMENTS A RANDOM REWARD SYSTEM FOR PVP. OH MY GOD

Just to put my healing experiences into context, I was a WoW 2500+ Arena rating Resto Druid so I have a fair bit of experience in high end PVP healing, particularly with the HoT based healing which really drew me in when I read about Sawbones. Putting Diagnostic Scan into a PVP scenario, 990 healing (assuming 100% crits which aint happening) over 3 seconds is a joke when Shadows/Assassins backstab me for 2-4000 twice in 1.5s. I'd rather manage my energy better than use Diagnostic Scan to regain it. I think if you ran a simulator you'd be better off waiting for 2s (and DPSIng even) and regaining the energy to use a UM than using Diagnostic Scan and locking yourself into position and unable to move. Perhaps on a tank and spank PVE boss that's possible, but in most high end MMO content and all PVP standing around channeling that spell is a death sentence.

A good example was today I was in Huttball Warzone with an equally geared Commando mate of mine, he had 2 melee on him (Sent and a Shadow). He was able to stand there and heal himself through their damage with 1 HoT from me ticking on him. The same 2 attacked me a couple of minutes later... The Commando was SPAM healing me and I was spam healing myself with full HoTs up and I went down so quickly. I just don't get it. I've seen the same commando stand in a mass of 3-5 melee and just power heal through it while our team took the enemies down, I can never do that.

Must admit, much of my frustration comes from the PVP aspect, lack of survivability, broken skills etc. Sorry, looking back this sounded really whiny but the frustration just built up so much yesterday with Empire vs Republic imbalance in PVP with them being so overgeared compared to us due to massive numbers in Ilum and we have no way of doing our dailies/weeklies there. I do stand by my comments though I would normally put them in a less whiny tone. Sage and Commando are streets ahead of Sawbones Scoundrels. Utility isn't a good enough reason to make their healing inferior because everyone knows in MMO's that min/max'ing is rampant. It'll only get worse when the combat log comes in and god forbid some addon like GearScore gets implemented (WoW addon). In regards to Disappearing Act, I don't think you should have to pop 1 cooldown to make another work. I just don't see a skill like Pugnacity being any fun whatsoever, for us to function properly it needs to be up, why not just give us natural Pugnacity, or even put a talent high in the Sawbones spec for it. I also don't get why Scrapper gets healing for 10s after Disappearing Act and the HEALER doesn't. So much defies logic. Our abilities cost too much energy for how little they do. We do the least damage of the 3 healers in our healing spec so we can't use that to save ourselves. In terms of rotations, I pretty much just pop 2 stack HoT on tank, UM, Pugnacity, UM, Emergency when spare Upper Hands are available. You say that if I'm "well-planned" then I will be good, but in PVP, there is no planning really, just reactions. It'd be so much easier if there was no Pugnacity and probably a lot less frustrating. I'd also like to be able to see my energy in a way that doesn't take my attention off the game itself. In PVP I often look down and realise I'm completely out of energy. In PVP Emergency Med Pack is barely acceptable when it crits, but if it doesn't the heal is a joke and doesn't even come close to stopping damage from even a single player if you don't get a string of crits. Why not make it like WoW Swiftmend which heals for a lot more, but on a short cooldown? Then you also wouldn't have to mess about with Upper Hand so much. The class is just so damn fiddly. You may say "well, you need more skill" but there aren't even enough hotbar buttons to fit all the skills/abilities and medpacks/stims that I need for PVP. Get rid of Pugnacity and free one more up, PLEASE! The Dodge speed boost from our talent should be the same as Consular speed imo and it really isn't even close. I can barely see any speed increase and often wonder if there is any at all.

Why would you even bother when Commando and Sage are just so much better? I've played all 3 to level 40+ (Sage and Scoundrel to 50) and survivability and healing prowess is better in every way on both classes. Oh yeah, damage is better too. Oh we have stealth, that's right... So in return we'll make Sawbones inferior in just about every other way possible and then on top of that, we'll make it the most annoying to play too, keeping Pugnacity up all the time and trying to monitor 2 stupidly weak HoT spells. We'll give them spells that tick for so little and so seldom that you have to try 10x harder to keep someone up than you do with Commando or Sage. Then on top of that, we'll make them the weakest class for damage mitigation just so they'll all quit in utter frustration. If that doesn't do it, we'll make it so our vanish escape is useless too, healing doesn't work and we get knocked out of it in PVP almots 100% of the time. Then we'll add a 2 point talent to give a 3 second 20% speed to dodge that doesn't even work or is so slow you can't even tell its working. Thank god Diagnostic Scan is so useful....oh nm... What a complete waste of time levelling this char up was.

Seriously, just reroll Sage. Sawbone is inferior in every single way from a healing perspective in both PVP and PVE. I've given up healing on my Sawbones, the most frustrating, annoying and underpowered healing class ever created.

duh, I see no patch notes for a new patch, but 11GB download?

Why is there an 11GB download?

Why not have access to all 3 trees? How is that in any way different to having access to 2? Its not like any classes have Healing, Tanking and DPS as their 3 trees. "Variety is the spice of life" they say...I'd like to play Scoundrel as a melee, healer or ranged DPS. I'd have enough variety to pay my subscription for a long time and not have to go through the bs level grind all over again. Multi-spec had nothing to do with RIFT's lack of success. There were many other reasons that RIFT wasn't successful...Personally I think it was too complicated at the start for people to latch onto. Being an inferior copy of WoW and terrible PVP balance are another 2 reasons.