Ah... good ole chart-topping, the ultimate metric of class balance What I read when I see someone say that the CL nerf won't affect them is that they never played a hybrid. Here's a hint: although CL is a chain AOE its primary use is as a single target instant nuke not a scoreboard damage inflator....a hard hitting single target nuke you can keep in your pocket ready to use within a few seconds after a wrath proc. The fact that an AOE available with only an 11 point investment is also the best single target burst ability speaks volumes about what a confused mess Sorcerer class design really is. And the confusion is not just in the DPS side. Everyone is complaining about how the Force Surge nerf means that sorcerer healers will take a lot of extra damage. My problem with its design is more basic: why do they take damage at all? We typically see this "sacrifice" type mechanic in classes that can do some healing but really aren't meant to be main healers...like Warlocks, Paladins before Blizzard elevated them to main healer status, etc. Having this in a main healing class in any MMO just feels gimmicky. I have no problem with consumption itself causing damage since non-healer DPS sorcerers also have the ability. The self-damage seems appropriate for them and consumption is only meant to be used in a dire emergency to DPSers. But it just seems wrong that a main healer should have that extra hassle when using their one and only force regen ability...which is why Force Surge, an ability that requires a 26-27 point investment in the healing tree, had an appropriate removal of the health penalty. It's high enough the tree that it's not available for DPSers. If too much force regen was the issue they were tring to address, wouldn't it have been easier to just reduce the force return of consumption in those occasions where the health penalty was removed? i.e. have Force Surge, for example halve the Force return of consumption in addition to everything else it does. Seems like a more elegant solution than this kludgy nerf that makes Force Surge no longer look like a 26-27 point ability. Healers would then have 2 options for force regen: more force return with a health penalty or less but without loss of health. But I digress, and my lack of joy is probably innapropriate in this naive thread.

I posted a follow up on the Sage frum version saying that it was a simulation on live of the 1.2 changes so take it for what it is. I forgot to also post a follow-up here. I originally misinterpreted the "pseudo 1.2 replica" as some negative comment on the character transfer process... reading incomprehension eventually gets us all

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=377800&page=2 Some additional thoughts... Unless push-back is a problem for you (never has been for me) Subversion is a waste of 2 points... you do not need the meager extra force regen. Electric Bindings is a better PVP skill than Backlash. But if it's PVE you want Suppresion over either of those. Although it's common to see it in specs, imho, 2/2 in Lightning Effusion + 3/3 in Sith Efficacy + 3/3 in Electric induction is way over the top in Force management... seriously, do you even go below 90% Force? ... ever? Juicy as extra damage for Chain Lightning looks on paper, 30% more 30% of the time averages +9%...better than nothing but this isn't in the same league as the 50% more 45% of the time (+22.5% average) of chain shock. Alacrity benefits cast-time abilities so it has its uses in a 31 point lightning spec but you're desperately trying to proc instants with your build where it won't help you much. Long story short... you want chain lightning to have a guaranteed +10% boost instead of an occasional one that averages 9%? How about also throwing in an extra guaranteed 10% for Death Field and Force Storm? Get rid of fluff, overcome your force regen fears and you end-up with my spec ....soon to die as viable after 1.2 but, for now, a much better one than what you posted: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201G0bZdcMrd0MZcrcRkzz.1 Have fun with that

Lol @ Subversion. Are you for real? Normal regen is 8 force/sec... +10% makes it 8.8/s returning an extra 8 Force after spending 18 Force (FL costs 30 but you regen 12 in the 1.5s it takes to cast) ... net is minus 10 Force. Let's say that for some bizarre reason you can actually heal and cast 3 of these to get the stacked +30% bonus: you now get an extra 26.4 over the next 13 seconds (assuming the 10 second counter is refreshed by each LS) but you spent 54 for the 3 required LS... net now is minus 27.6. As far as I can tell there really is only one viable spec for a healer to benefit from Force management through DPS (forget FL regen because it just takes too long) with a contrived spec like this: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201GhrRdd0zZfzMrd0MZ0M.1 The only reason this has a chance to be viable at all is because you're reducing cost by 50% depending on Affliction crits to trigger Effusion and you only need to cast affliction once every 21 seconds. 50% reduction is infinitely better than +10% regen wih even very little activity (i.e each 1/2 cost DI saves you 27 Force.) There's only one situation where regen is better than cost reduction: when you stand around doing nothing. But anyay, you give up quite a bit to go that high up the Lightning tree. Not all that viable for PVE HM or OP healing. You could tweak it into a decent PVP spec though. The Subversion spec posted above doesn't have a chance and I seriously doubt this first-time poster has even played it.

Oh boy. It never ceases to amaze me how aggressively opinionated some people can be despite totally misunderstanding something. There's a big difference between intelligent use of abilities as designed (CL off wrath) and abuses like double-dipping... it's not the removal of abuse that killed some hybrid specs it was a new design decision that CL shouldn't proc off wrath. The end result is less variation not more. And speaking of variation.... some variants are so dumb that they don't even deserve discussion... but hey, feel free to use whatever you want with all this "new" freedom from cookie cutters.

Well, it's true. I also don't recall attempts at EJ or other places to model heavy movement fights but there have indeed been many attempts to do so for SWTOR. Like this one for example: http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/114/Sage_Sorcerer_114_HeavyMovement.html That showed that the suffusion spec I prefer, which is about to die in 1.2, was the top mobility spec and that simulation coincided very well with my own experience. However, much of what you say about your Arcane Mage as well as my own experience with the suffusion spec have a a large helping of subjectivity in there. It works for me as did your Arcane Mage version for you. And that's the problem with experienced-based discussions of builds: subjectivity. Subjective opinions can be expressed well or badly and obviously, the more comprehensible explanations are more influential. But really, they're opinions about a play style with a particular set of abilities that may or may not work for someone else. Theorycrafting is an attempt to minimize subjectivity and provide a sound theoretical foundation for developing playstyles. There is a perfect example of this in another thread where ironically, you yourself used some simplified calculator theorycrafting to make the point that even a +20% instant LS is still a DPS loss compared to just channelling FL. You used that as an example to promote an LS buff (which I support, btw) but I didn't see you say anywhere that this means you will henceforth remove LS from your action bar like others have said in some posts. Why not? Because you're obviously intelligent enough to realize that despite its DPS deficiency there will come a time when you're on the run with a Wrath proc active, CD and Shock on cooldown where you will use it, warts and all, just because it's instant. That's just a tiny example of having a solid foundation through mathematical modelling of what different abilities do but then applying what you know when an exception is warranted. First of all, I've never seen Daellia say "lalala" anything. What I ussually see are careful intelligent explanations of things that are missunderstood by others... like (cough) the effect of Alacrity on GCDs. Secondly, don't you find it ironic to have that first paragraph followed by the "I have no personal issue..." statement? They seem to contradict each other. And finally, I have seen posts from Daellia with pretty good ideas about making changes other than the ones BW is making. I certainly didn't read those posts as an indication that theorycrafters are in any way supporting BW's design choices. Quite the opposite. They may be trying to calm people down and making suggestions about how to cope with the changes. I don't see that as being particualrly supportive, just pragmatic. I mean... how can any of us be supportive of a balance and class design team that after umpteen months of development and beta, releases spec trees where the best AOE is also the best single-target spell and can be empowered +20% and made instant with Wrath and buffed +10% more with an ability from, of all places, the healing tree... and then a couple of months later, after all of us saw the synergy potential and used it, say "Oh s__t! We didn't mean to do that." Why didn't they see such an obvious thing if our use of it was indeed unintentional? PS... thanks for disagreeing forcefully in a mostly polite and intelligent way... a rare thing around game forums

The 10-49 WZs are dominated by those who are 45+...period. There's nothing that level bolsters can do to compensate for high-end abilities that are missing at low levels. If something is working for you, by all means keep using it and have fun with it; but most opinions on viable PVP specs don't mean much until they're tested in an more even playing field... which doesn't happen until it's all geared 50s vs. geared 50s.

For someone who posted a generally interesting critique on Sorcerer design, that is an amazingly ignorant view of theorycrafting. Just how using DPS meters on target dummys has its uses for tweaking builds and rotations so does calculating theoretical DPS under ideal circumstances... which is all that theorycrafting does. The problem you and Z are having is all in your interpretation of the results and mis-applying those results to PVP and real or imagined PVE situations that can include a multitude of random player actions that influence the outcome. You're also making assumptions, perhaps based on your own rigid thinking, that theorycrafters are zealots who want to use their result and nothing but their results to balance... if you can point me to quotes where they say that I'll read them but I've never seen it. Theorycrafters and those who appreciate the efforts know damn well what and how things are being measured. We know the difference between ideal and "real" and don't discount the results of calculated ideal numbers just because they're not "real." We all know that the ideal numbers are not achievable in most situations but look at the numbers anyway and keep them in the back of our minds when making choices. These is all very basic stuff I would file away under the heading of "understanding what theorycrafting is and what it can do for you"... sot of a reading comprehension kind of thing. Most people can take a look at 2 theorycrafted builds that achieve similar theoretical maximum numbers but are different in how many instants are part of the rotation, and tell you which of the two would translate best to a PVP or highly mobile PVE situation. If you want to talk about pseudo-math lets talk about WZ scoreboards or damage meter comparisons which are typically inflated by trash killing AOE numbers. Those seem to get a lot of traction in forum discussions and impress the ignorant. Theorycrafting is just a tool. One that devs would be wise to use to preview changes before they do really stupid things that were generated by nothing more than "deep thoughts" and mystical private metrics. Your OP in this thread is an interesting collection of your "deep thoughts" which ironically, would be enhanced tremendously if you put your bias aside for a moment and ran them through simulcraft... otherwise they're just interesting opinions and nothing more.

In case you missed it, here is one Sorc healer's experience from the PTS running Black Talon HM... doesn't look good: Link to that thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=374438

Well it relegates TK Wave to occasional use if at all. TK wave was the "go-to" ability for this spec whenever it was a +20% instant. It + FIB was the only way for this spec to have burst damage. Now the only 2 options are Mind Crush and Disturbance... and disturbance, even with the +20% from POM is a DPS loss over just channelling TK Throw. So really, POM procs are only worth using on Mind Crush now (except on those occasions when you're moving and Project is not off CD.)

We're still the best at running and hiding around the corner... that ability has to be worth at least the same as heavy armor I think

But like raw noobs and devs both know, simcraft is not "real." Private metrics that are not shared or explained in any way are the only "real" measures... that and scoreboard numbers... yeah forgot about that one, because PVP effectiveness is all about high numbers. /sarcasm off

I agree. Despite the fact that they killed any tri-spec variant (such as the leveling one in my guide...RIP ) I don't see much problem with DPS Sorcs in 1.2. Burst healing and PVP hybrids, especially those relying on a splash of corruption up to FB for the 1.5s DI, do have some legitimate gripes but PVE DPS will be ok. What still annoys me however is the implicit rush to balance before making some required tweaks. Without even going into the LB double-dip (which may or may not be fixed) I'm always bothered by useless abilities in spec trees, especially when they represent an empty promise The promise of self-healing off damage in the Madness tree is first on my list. I'm sure that most sorcerers interested in PVP looked at Parasitism when they first started playing and thought "Oh cool, I know what this is about... like Archmage in WAR, Affliction Lock in WOW, ChloroLocks in Rift...." wrong. Not only does it not heal enough, it doesn't even work off FL, the signature ability for this spec. It's as if this was designed by two groups. Group 1 wanted to have self-healing in Madness but group 2 said "OK, if you must, but not too much." Anyway, that has always been just my personal pet peeve about Sorcerers and it's mostly a PVP thing. PVE DPS will be fine but I still have to wonder "Why this? Why now?"

A post-1.2 note to all... As I'm sure many of you have heard by now, there are some big changes coming to Sorcerers (most classes really) in 1.2. Two changes in particular have a a large impact on this tri-spec: Chain Lightning will no longer be a +20% damage instant procced off Force Lightning and Force Bending will no longer reduce the cast time of Dark Infusion by 1 second. For this spec, those changes are huge. I see very little point in taking CL or FB now and I'll have to do some serious thinking about what should replace them... if anything. This spec could very well go the way of the dodo post 1.2.

A post-1.2 note to all... As I'm sure many of you have heard by now, there are some big changes coming to Sages (most classes really) in 1.2. Two changes in particular have a a large impact on this tri-spec: TK wave will no longer be a +20% damage instant procced off TK Throw and Conveyance will no longer reduce the cast time of Deliverance by 1 second. For this spec, those changes are huge. I see very little point in taking Conveyance or TK Wave now and I'll have to do some serious thinking about what should replace them... if anything. This spec could very well go the way of the dodo post 1.2.

Sad but true I'm hoping transfers happen sooner than later. My main Sorc and Sage are in a server where Empire is barely viable pre-50 and leveling Republic means you have to skip all FPs and H2 and H4.

Hey! the guy (and the rest of us) did what he could. BW's insistence that character copying to the PTS is an invitation only thing for the priviledged guilds, means that the average person can't have an MMO Testing Council certified experience. Leveling another 50 over there from 1-50 with only sprint from 1-13 as a leveling aide is a PITA and not for everyone...especially not for those who have jobs + families + other interests. What this means is that we are supposed to believe what BW itself says they see in their "metrics" and what their chosen pet guilds tell us... the rest of us are left with no better way of testing than what the OP here attempted...which, all in all, is a very good attempt at simulation. The rest of us "unchosen" but experienced and skeptical Sorcerers are supposed to do exactly what while we wait for 1.2 to go live? Be seen but not heard? I say kudos to the OP for a creative attempt at simulating the healing changes. PS... what's the deal with your developer-like colors for your posts? Are we supposed to be fooled into thinking what you say is more important?

But running out of force in long, very long fights--as in bosses--is the only force consideration that actually matters. Honestly, have you ever CC'd and killed trash for more than a minute or 2 at a time? No one runs out of force doing that. I've played just about every DPS spec and I can say that any spec (such as the contrived one you posted) that has 2/2 in Effusion + 3/3 in Electric Induction + 3/3 in Sith Efficacy is only good for someone who is unreasonably paranoid about running out of force. That spec just never, ever, goes below 90% Force. It's good for a moment of "Wow! Holy S__t! look at my Force bar not move!" but then you usually tweak it to make better use of some of those unnecessary points. For example your 18/23 posted above (http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201ZfcM0dRMZcMfRsMkk.1) would be vastly improved with a couple of small tweaks even for those Effusion die-hards that absolutely need to have some of it: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201ZdcMrd0zZcMfRsMkr.1 2 points taken from EI and put into Lightning Barrier... 2 taken from Electric Bindings and moved to Suppression for better PVE utility... only 1/2 in Effusion which means that instead of it being up absolutely all of the time, it will be up merely most of the time. This also gives you the two missing points to add to Force Horrors and Lingering Nightmares. But if we're talking post 1.2 PVE I'm having a hard time coming up with anything better than 1/12/28 for PVE: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201oZdcMMbZcrcRsMkrc.1

Considering how much they just got buffed in 1.2 and how tough they already are for us on live, I believe the correct answer is "you don't."

Early on I don't worry too much about stats since the Willpower light armor we get is pretty generic. Typically it will increase Will, Power, Endurance and Crit. Later on in your 40s you start to have more options and access to more surge and alacrity items. In general alacrity helps healing and full TK DPS specs (ie. specs that rely on cast-time abilities) and surge for hybrids (like this one) and full Balance. End game you're looking at something like: Will, Power (either type), Crit, Surge, Alacrity, Endurance.

I miss my Protection Pally more than my Affliction Lock

http://www.flayme.com/troll/ "I believe that most trolls are sad people, living their lonely lives vicariously through those they see as strong and successful."

Thanks for your thoughtful, pragmatic look at the changes. I'm sorry to see the end of my favorite 7/18/16 spec which I've found to be more fun than other viable DPS specs... PvPers do seem to have more emotional investment in their characters so it's not surprising that their reaction to the nerfs is more visceral... maybe they care more? For obvious reasons, there is also no Simulcraft available for PVP so it's a lot harder to predict the result of the changes in the more fluid PvP environment... wild speculation is the result. Also... it's one thing to understand the changes but yet another to understand the rationale that prompted them. I've been playing MMOs for a long, long time and I've yet to see any developers make a consistent effort to explain why they consider some head-scratching changes necessary at all but more importantly, why those changes are implemented when they are relative to other needed changes in their to-do list (dual-spec anyone?) We can only make more or less educated guesses why they couldn't leave balancing essentially alone for a few more months while they stamped-out the remaining bugs, improved Illium PVP, implemented a better way to form groups, allowed transfers from dying/dead servers... my priority list is apparently different from theirs. Lets look at the Wrath nerf... I can understand how they thought that having an AOE ability also be the best single-target ability is wrong. The solution we were all expecting was a buff to LS, not the removal of CL from abilities affected by Wrath... LS still remains the pathetic ability it has always been. The Force Surge nerf I don't understand at all. Why is putting extra pressure (greater need to self-heal) on Sorc healers needed? Is it to make it more challenging? Or is it because the heavy armor healing variety whined about running out of their healing resource more often than Sorcerers? And the Force Lightning nerf? Were we using it too much and that's their solution? I read the end-result of all the changes as removing the 4th DPS spec possibility from the mix. Now there are only 3 ways to do it instead of 4... progress? I guess that I'm from the school of thought that believes in balancing through buffs or neutral changes and only resorting to nerfs when there's no other way to do it...or you don't have the imagination to do it any other way

Good catch, thanks. That was left-over from my Sorc guide where Str is the DPS stat for Khem.

That's right it is 8 Force/sec. There are some Sage/Sorc hybrid DPS specs that take advantage of both TK/Lightning Effusion (for what is essentially an "always on" 50% reduction of force cost after crits) and Psychic Barrier/Sith Efficacy where you literally, never go below 90% Force no matter how long you DPS or how often you use your more costly AOE abilities. For example: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600G0bZdcMrd0MZcMcRs0z.1 Take Forcequake/Lightning Storm, everyone's favorite damage + CC trash killer. It is a 6 second channel that costs 100 Force. The cost is reduced to 47 force with the above spec and you regen 48 during its channel. Even that one will net you +1 force. A more common hybrid rotation however depends on using the instant proc from TK Throw on either Mind Crush or TK Wave. On longer fights many using the cookie-cutter 13/28 DPS hybrid find that using TK Wave whenever it's available will cause Force problems. With the above spec you never have to worry about that... ...nor do you even have to worry about helping out with heals in a pinch since Effusion halves the cost of those too (net cost of only 6 for a 2.5 second Deliverance.) That hybrid spec is so efficient as a matter of fact that I've even modified it on my 50 Sorc (Sage equivalent terminology here to avoid confusion) by reducing Psych Barrier to only 1/3 and using those two points to reduce the stun CD by 10 seconds (2/2 in Pinning Resolve) which comes in very handy on some fights. With that modification I do sometimes go as low as 60% Force however The other benefit of that hybrid is the +10% damage boost to AOEs (Note: From what I understand, there is a Sage-only bug that prevents that extra 10% from Psychic Suffusion applying to TK Wave. That isn't the case for Sorcerers... the +10% is definitely applied to Chain Lightning) making it a very viable end-game DPS spec.