See my post above. Like it or not, it is no longer the dial-up years and broadband connections are required now. Like it or not, it only cost $3.00 per user per YEAR to support them on servers. Like it or not, in 2012 sub fees are for generation of content - as per the ToS and their own marketing jargon.

I agree with you for the F2Pers. What I am saying is those of us who purchased and subbed for the game should keep what we already paid for when it goes F2P. If we were subbers up to that point, and opt to go F2P, then any future content should be purchased as normal under the model. If we maintain our subs, then future content should be provided as part of that sub. But, they should not be taking away stuff you already have paid for in any event and then expect you to pay for it again if you opt for the F2P route. What I just described is exactly how LOTRO handled it. What you had already paid for you kept, but new stuff had to be purchased or was provided if you maintained a sub (or had purchased a lifetime sub). EA wants to take away stuff we have already paid for, unless we maintain a subscription. Which is complete bullocks.

I assume you are actually referring to Section 13, rather than 14 since 14 is the Export Control Laws. That being said, it is still correct as Section 13 of the ToS says specifically that if you purchased the game then the terms of the EUALA apply. If you are referring to the Rights and Reservations under the EUALA, you still have permanently purchased the perpetual license for the software, not requiring an on-going fee. So, I was still correct in my first argument.

No I didn't, I've linked to it. Terms of Service are for the sub fee. The End User License Agreement (EUALA) is for the boxed game you bought itself. That being said, we currently pay a sub fee under the ToS for content that was purchased under the EUALA. Now, they are making the servers (and the initial game) free, where F2Pers have to buy the content like we did when we purchased the boxed game. But, since I have indeed read them, here: To gain access to the Software, you must: (a) have acquired the Software (whether on DVD-ROM, CD-ROM or other physical media or by digital download) by legal means; (b) have installed the Software on your computer; © have a valid Star Wars: The Old Republic ("SWTOR") account and accept the EA Privacy Policy, Terms of Service and SWTOR Rules of Conduct (available at http://www.swtor.com); (d) agree to share your account and game play information (but not any of your billing information) with EA’s licensor, LucasArts, a division of Lucasfilm Entertainment Company Ltd. ("LucasArts"); and (e) have accepted this EUALA. As you can see, we have (a) purchased the game (b) and installed it and, once free to play and server access is free we will all have met the conditions of © having an account (not a sub, mind you but an account). Under the Terms of Service, for your sub fee, you are entitled to the following: 3. Entitlements "Entitlements" are licensed rights granted, awarded, provided and/or purchased by you to access and/or use online or off-line elements or features of EA Services and/or products. Entitlements include but are not limited to paid and free downloadable content, unlockable content, digital and/or virtual assets, rights of use tied to unlock keys or codes, serial codes and/or online authentication of any kind, in-game achievements and virtual or fictional currency not otherwise governed by a Digital Services Agreement So they are in fact contractually pulling from their current obligations under content you have already purchased both from the EUALA and under the Terms of Service. Don't even begin to try and justify how subscribers since day one who paid $60 for the game and $150 in sub fees ($210) total by the time F2P drops deserve to lose a single thing they have paid for up until that point just because they opt to use F2P from that point forward. To make matters worse, and F2Per will be able to by an Op once, just once, while subscribers are expected to keep paying for it month after month after month. Let's say they decide to charge $5 for FPs and $10 for Ops. An F2Per comes in, plays for free, the spends $50 on FPs and $20 for Ops and they have the whole kit and kaboodle for $70 permanently while all subscribers continue to pay for it monthly, over and over and over again.

100% wrong!!!! You have BOUGHT a boxed game and therefore do own it. Sorry, the sub is for access to the servers which they are now about to make free. F2Pers, on the other hand, won't have to buy the game as everyone here already has.

Which is complete and utter BS considering we all already PAID for these when we bought the boxed game and in the subs fees we paid when they dropped in the game. For six months of sub fees ($90) we got one Op (EC), one WZ (Denova) and two FPs (Koan and LI). Also, in the boxed game price we got 8 character slots. Now they are going to take some away? Now EA is saying if you don't continue to pay, you will lose them, even though you already paid for them. This is exactly why I am permanently done with the game on 9-17 and permanently done with anything ever by EA. I am done with them as a customer period. In LOTRO, they at least kept ALL the content you had already paid for. EA, on the other hand, is taking it away. I won't say the word, but there is a nasty word for what exactly this is.

Sorry, but it is VERY clear in the EA documentation that you do get content. http://tos.ea.com/legalapp/WEBTERMS/US/en/PC/#section3 What is even more interesting is the Entitlements of the sub fee are ALL related to content and nothing at all is mentioned about server access. So, it is perfectly acceptable to expect to get what you pay for in the legal agreement in using the service.

Let's say, for sake of example, Makeb drops on December 20 - exactly one year from launch date. Let's say someone is still a subscriber by then. That person bought the boxed set and got 8 classes (16 advanced), 8 character slots, 50 levels, two factions, class stories, 14 planets, 3 warzones, 13 space missions, 6 companions per class, an open world PvP (which is now kaput), and two operations with three modes. All for about $60-$70. After one year, assuming they release all the stuff you are talking about by the time Makeb hits, we'll have received one planet, 5 levels, 3 flashpoints (2 Koan and the new one), 10 space missions, 2 ops with only two modes, and two warzones. All for $180 spent over the year. Seems like you got a lot more for your money in the box at one third the price and diddly for it over the year. Paying for the planet would be a blatant rip off. And before someone adds the cost of the servers, this is negligible in today's day and age (even ArenaNet recently stated this). The typical annual cost of server support per user is roughly $3.00 nowadays, so in the first month of subscription you've covered five years of your server usage costs.

Hmmmm. Seems we are still missing a team. One that actually tests the junk that keep releasing to live... Glad I'm done with this junk come this Saturday and unsubbed as of 9-17. Everything is reeking of get as much extra cash as possible with as little investment as possible. What was once 1.4 content will now be spread out over a year's release time for the simple purpose of keeping people subbed or F2Per's buying on a monthly business. Game is done... stick a fork in it.

I think you left one group out - those that are happy playing the game, and would like to continue to do so, but can't because the company has driven off too many of the first group so the game becomes nothing of what it started as (ala LOTRO) when the company does everything it can to get dollars in the door to stay a float.

There is also lack of content. I have been here since early release and am on my 5th toon running through. I have done all the flashpoints, planetary quests, ops in normal and hard mode, rakghoul event and PvP warzones up the ying-yang. Please enlighten me as to what else there is too do once you have done all this stuff multiple times over? There are no sandbox elements (such as pazaak, ship customization, housing, sabaac, pod and swoop racing, holochess or gambling on Nar Shadda) so everything else, for those that have been here since launch, is done multiple times over. Now we have what would have been patch 1.4 broken apart and going to be served in elements of one thing every six weeks. Yeah, BioWare is doing a GREAT job. It's us players who are the problem.

At $15 month they are entitled to something to do that they are paying for besides which came with the box price. As far as the "or else don't play the game" that is what is happening in spades. At this rate there won't be enough left to justify even keeping the doors open on it.

I must have missed the autocannon because I only remember sniper rifles and blaster rifles, which leaves out Commandos unless they want to go back to being equipped as they were on Ord Mantell.

Unless the next event comes out before August 25th, I won't worry about it. Sad to say, but BioWare has, without a doubt, proven themselves completely clueless about developing and managing an MMO. Of course, the sub numbers already prove that.

First, it isn't 50% alienated, it is almost 82%. of 16 classes, there are weapons that only three classes use. Secondly, it is obvious this event was rushed out the door. This game is done, stick a fork in it. It already is the worst AAA MMO failure in history, it will be able to add biggest F2P failure to that list at this rate. BioWare, sorry to say it but you guys really are clueless. No wonder this game is tanking faster than a rock thrown into a pond. August 25th I am done. You got one more month from me to tide me over until GW2 than I am gone for good. You guys really don't have a clue at all how to handle an MMO. Before I go, however, here is my feedback for future events - start by getting an Executive Producer who has just a smiggin of a clue about MMOs. At least then you will stand some remote chance of possibly salvaging a small audience for this fiasco.

Agree 100%. Industry is currently plagued with a lot of overinflated designer egos who have no reason to have them given the state of failure in a lot of MMOs. This is exactly what plagued SWTOR and is the main reason for it's dismal failure.

Thanks. I guess I missed that change but this was a NM FP with a level 11 toon. Have they been removed from them in all modes?

Just ran Esseles this morning and not a single (not a one) loot chest was to be found in the FP. Did I miss the patch notes where every single loot chest was removed from Esseles? or is this yet another Stealth change? or is this another bug introduced with the latest patch that broke something that has been working since day one?

Funny, I thought Flashpoints and Raids were part of the stuff we paid for with the box game itself. Now if you don't maintain a sub, they will take away what came in the box. Classic EA all the way and why they have gained the stellar reputation as the Worst Company in America. They certainly do a good job trying to maintain that wonderful reputation.

First, stop with the hyperbole on Turbine. They have not been EXTREMELY successful with F2P, they have survived with it. I have been a long time shareholder of TW so I am quite aware financially how they are performing. It is not the smashing success that many believe, but nor is it a failure. It is simply better than they were doing before (which was losuy to begin with). Second, Turbine has developed a rather shady and deceptive reputation since going F2P, to the point where they have, in fact, twice crossed the line on consumer protection laws and were forced to give refunds as a result. If this is the future of the MMO industry, might as well shut all the doors now. Second, I personally don't believe F2P is the future of the MMO industry, I think it is the flavor of the moment caused by the sheer volume of competition in the industry right now. It is reaching saturation point and, much like it's predecessor model in sthe social gaming space, is experiencing sharp decline. There is only so much nickel-and-diming overall that customers can stand before there is wide spread backlash and that is happening now. Lastly, to the subject of the OP. I doubt they will get that many players. They sold 2.4M boxes, so this probably shows a good portion of the market, but since they still falsely believe it was the sub fee that turned people off, they still don't understand why they aren't keeping customers will pay.

Your post is excellent because this is what I think is the problem in general - most sub-based MMOs aren't turning out enough content to justify $15/month. Perhaps, before jumping on F2P they should consider making subs $5/month to see if it changes anything. F2P is simply about finding a way to milk more money from the already paying customer base (ala LOTRO), make no mistake about it. Maybe another model to consider is that like Diablo I. Let players get online free. Charge them for initial box and release content expansions every 6 months to a year and charge for that box. Now players are always getting something for their money besides "access". Also, in general, people should read Mark Pincus's recent revelations about gamers become fed up with ad spam and nickel-and-diming in games and thus why Zynga is tanking so fast. The model is old and tired.

LOTRO had a brief increase in revenue with the first three months selling extra stuff to people already subbed. Hasn't been that way since, nor have they made the claims it has (Full disclosure: I am a long-time TW shareholder so I've seen how well it's working in reality). Turbine has tried to milk more and more money from an ever dwindling paying customer base - thus their recent expansion being one of the most expensive ever released with content that is nothing more than a quest pack called an expansion. To that, let's not forget that their business practices have become so shady that they have violated consumer protection laws not once, but twice, with both of their so called "expansions".

And I am a customer they are losing over the F2P conversion. So i guess it evens out. Been through the F2P conversion before with LOTRO and the experience was bad enough (terrible in fact) that I won't go through it again. My sub is done and my gaming with SWTOR is close to that point also.

No, it cost $200M... http://www.gamespot.com/news/star-wars-the-old-republic-cost-200-million-to-develop-6348959 Was published in the Los Angeles Times. Also, I don't think the game is going to die - EA will adjust for revenue vs. expense. However, when you consider all the lay offs and people leaving vs. the pace of content delivery (which has been rather pathetic vs. most other companies) it makes one wonder how much content delivery will slow down even further.

I'd wager it is more like 250k-300k. We had a little over 100 servers at heavy to full at launch, with 1.7M subs. Roughly 15k-20k peeps per server. Now we have about 16 servers. Following the same capacity brings about 240k-320k. After the transfers, those servers were running heavy to full, now even they are running mainly light to medium. Heavy rarely. The heavy rumors of the EA CEO about to be replaced I'm sure has to do a bit with a $200M+ investment tanking like there is no tomorrow. The rumors also state that potentially it has to do with the reports of sub numbers coming on July 30.