I am more convinced now that Shatter should Beat Down the target, causing it to take 5% more melee damage, and that Impale should reset the CD on Ravage. It looks like from the Dev Stream, on November 21st, the CD on Ravage is now 18 seconds, down from 30 seconds. Impale, with its 9 second CD vs Shatter's 12 second CD makes sense to give us Ravage twice as often, and keeping Ravage central to the Vengeance Spec (now Discipline), much like Unload is to Arsenal. From a PvP point of view, while Ravage cannot be interrupted, it can be stunned through, pushed/pulled or negated with other abilities. I see the Vengeance Discipline receives a 20% damage bonus to Ravage. This is great, but it is the ability to land as many ticks of the ability that makes it integral to the discipline. The Unstoppable (passive) Ability certainly helps but is not always possible to line up. Arsenal gets an 8 second internal CD between Unload resets, a 30m ranged ability, that with the proper utility can now be used while moving. Unload is also reset by another 30m ranged ability, while ours is reset by another 4m ability. With 15 second abilities such as Low Slash, three consecutive uses of Ravage can easily be shut down with Low Slash, Force Stun, Low Slash. This does not even include Force Wave as another means to shut down Ravage. At 11m to 30m, Unload can be used outside of the range of most abilities that would shut down Ravage. For these reasons and those I have listed in the OP, I suggest the following: 1. Shatter remains the level 10 ability, as it makes sense with the passive DOT spreading abilities that follow. 2. Shatter and Impale should be swapped in the passive abilities that reset Ravage and proc Beat Down on the target. The result is the Discipline path remains very much the same. Ravage CD is cut in half (9 seconds vs 12 seconds) for Vengeance Discipline. Shatter is the obvious opening ability, regardless of achieving single target or AOE damage. Ravage reset is still 1 sec longer than Unload's reset timer. This is hopefully off set by the fact that Ravage cannot be interrupted and does significantly more damage. Second thought/suggestion: Impale as the reset ability produces a short and simplified rotation, leaving only 4.5 seconds of GCD after Impale and Ravage are used. Where's the fun or skill in that? My second suggestion is that the damage from Ravage should be shifted so the last tick is not the strongest, as I believe it currently is. I understand that this makes sense as a cool animation, (you build your series of blows to a crescendo) but it stinks as a damage dealing mechanic in a 3 second channel. It's like, "Hey, better shut me down before I really drop the hammer on you!" If you read this whole post, thanks for your time. I really am trying to just highlight issues and offer simple fixes to improve the upcoming Discipline (that I already love). Good hunting!

All great points. I appreciate the posts. I do PvP mostly, so I consider things from a most bang for the buck in a 1v1 scenario. That is the primary reason for wanting my main DOT started early without missing a Ravage reset. Burst is central to most PvP matches ( I am generalizing here), so I want a rotation that reduces the time to kill. As far as the 20 second timer, that relates to Destroyer/Execute move (Vicious Throw, I believe). Ravage is reset about every 10.5 seconds on live, but now every 12 seconds if Shatter is the sole reset ability. I agree with the points about having the AOE option. With the new ability doing 25% more damage to burning targets, it's damage will hopefully be significant against the current target. Thanks again for the responses.

My point is being made, that right now, you follow up your leap with a Shatter or Ravage in most cases. I am leaving out the rage building abilities. It would be unfortunate to have to always lead with Ravage, for fear that using Shatter would waste a reset of Ravage CD. So, do you put off your strongest DOT or waste your Ravage reset to get your DOT ticking (and possibly spread it to other targets)? I would prefer not having to choose between the two.

Retaliation on the GCD would have to do sick damage to be worth a spot on the rotation. If like the live version, where you get a window of opportunity to use it, it might be ok, because you would not want to delay other abilities for it. With the window of opportunity, you could at least fit it in as a filler when higher priority abilities are on CD.

I apologize if I violated any forum rules on datamined info.

As I have read the early information on the Vengeance Discipline, there are passive abilities in the discipline path that will do the following: -Smash/Vengeful Slash will spread your DOTs to other targets so long as one target is already affected. -Shatter resets the CD on Ravage. -Impale beats down the target and causes it to take 5% more melee damage. Shatter is now a level 10 ability. Most people would argue that you want to start your DOTs as early as possible in the rotation to get the most out of its damage. This cannot be done now, because Shatter (our strongest DOT) now alone finishes the CD on Ravage. Starting a rotation on Shatter would be wasting a Ravage reset. Also, Impale will cause your Ravage (and all other melee attacks) to do 5% more damage. This leaves us in this unhappy position: Impale, Ravage, Shatter, Ravage, Vengeful Slash (if multiple targets to spread the DOTs). The ability priority this creates just does not make sense, based on the mechanics of trying to maximize your DPS. It would make more sense for Shatter to beat down the target and cause the increase to melee damage. This would allow you to start your strongest DOT ticking while providing the buff to melee damage. Impale should then be the ability that finishes the CD on Ravage. I know this means that 9 second CD on impale would mean the use of Ravage more often. This may mess with the rotation, because you would get one extra Ravage every 36 seconds, but it would not create the priority mess that above mentioned passive abilities does. Also, my understanding is that Ravage resets are now at about 10.5 seconds on live. I do not claim to be an expert on this and 3.0 is, of course, subject to change before it goes live. I hope BW will take a look at this and give it some thought. I would love to see if any other players caught this and what their thoughts are. Feel free to tell me if I missed something. Happy hunting! FeartheGoat