You know what we do with the root of the problem.................WE ROOT THE PROBLEM OUT. That would be your cue to move on.

Your logic makes absolutely no sense. It would appear to me that you are saying that there isn't enough for "hard core" gamers to do in the game. Ok, my response is simple. Stop playing the game as if it were your job. Nobody told you to spend your every waking moment playing the game. Also, unless you maxed out to 50 every class in the game then you haven't exhausted everything in the game. So don't give me that lame excuse that there is nothing to do. The friggin game has only been out for a month and a half. How much content do you actually expect. Stop being rediculous and gain some perspective. As far as casual gamers "wanting the game for ourselves", well clearly you don't get that either. All casual gamers want is the ability to enjoy a game for whatever amount of time we want to invest in it. We generally are people who have lives outside of the game that are demanding and take priority. We cant play the game 10hrs a day like you self proclaimed hardcore players. The real problem stems from the fact that you seem to equate time in game with entitlement. Once you get past the fact that the more you play doesn't mean your entitled to something the happier you will be. TBH I really equate the label of being hardcore as being a loser. Clearly if you dedicate that much time to playing a game, then there is no doubt that there are other facets of life that are being neglected. Just stands to reason and common sense.

Hard core gamers dont pay the bills my friend. Seriously, all you "Self Proclaimed" Hard core gamers really need to get over yourselves. Your not special, your not priviledged, and you are certainly not the majority. You are just another customer. Bioware or any other company doesn't owe yours or any other group of players anything. They put out a product and you either like it or you don't. Its really quite simple. But this sense of entitlement that you self proclaimed "hard core" players have is laughable. Exactly what makes you "hard core"? Really, I would love to hear what your definition of hard core is. If you have to label yourself as something, then you probably aren't what you think you are. Casual Gamers pay the bills. Casual Gamers have the money to pay the bills. That is just the way it is and you had better get used to it. There is always that other MMO you came from if you don't like this one, unless its dead which is probably the case and that's why you are here in the first place. Just think of this game as a fast food chain. You don't as Mc Donalds to be Burger King and you don't ask Burger King to be Jack in the Box and you don't ask Jack in the Box to be Wendy's. Sure, they all have similar items on the menu just like all MMO's have similarities but like the food, MMO's also have different flavors. If the Flavor of the TOR doesn't appeal to you then just eat/play somewhere else.

Play Darkfall Online and you will definitely change your tune the first time you lose all of your gear that took litterally 10's of hours to make. If you seriously like to waste time I highly suggest this game for you. Nothing like playing wack a mole on the same tree for and hour just to farm wood and another hour on a rock just to get stone. Then get ganked by some other player and have him take all your materials that you spend 2 hrs farming. Oh yeah that is loads of fun.....Hmmm Hmmmm.

OLD has nothing to do with it. I am 45 and I would never ever play an MMO if were like the OP describes it. Why in the world would I seek enjoyment doing the mundane. Inefficiency is a time waster and I have much better things to do with my time. The only people who long for type of game play are those who have nothing else to do but toil away in game. I want my fun quick and efficient. I want to be able to garner the same enjoyment level whether I play for 1 hr or 1 day. You make toil away with mundane tasking just so it takes me a week to get something done and I assure my subscription will be ending and its my estimatation that the MAJORITY of todays gamers feel the same way. People have Jobs, Careers, Families, School. They cant be wasting time performing mundane taskings that take forever. Time is critical. Its just the way society is these days. Either you adapt or you get steam rolled.

I thank god they don't make games like this anymore. Basically what you described is a recipe for a sad life. Perhaps you may long for the days of being a closet shut in but I am pretty sure the genre has evolved from your type of player. You paint the picture of the classic stereotype of what people think of people who play MMO's. I am glad that stigma is changing and developers are realizing that not every MMO player is some zit faced nerd eating hot pockets in his moms basement. Its a game and not a life style. TOR is the perfect game for those of us who wish to enjoy the genre without having to sacrafice our lives in the balance. Hey but if you long for the old days there is nothing stopping you from playing this game that way. Nobody is forcing you to use a mount. Feel free to walk everywhere you go if that floats your boat. How you think that kind of time wasting and inefficiency is fun is beyond me. TOR is very efficient with a gamers time and I certainly welcome that.

If its PVP you want then there are certainly better platforms than a trilogy system based MMO platform. The trilogy sytem of combat wasn't designed for pvp and quite honestly it doesn't work very well at all. You ask if this is my first foray into MMO pvp. No its not. It would be my third. I played Warhammer, and Rift before this. Warhammers PVP was atrocious and Rift was essentially boring. I at least find TOR to be somewhat enjoyable although the trilogy system, like i mentioned before is not designed for this type of game play. You can never have balance in a game like this and that is why MMO pvp is always being pinged on. The only people who are happy are those who are OP and everyone else is left to whine and moan. Then the inevitible nerfs come then the the former OP people will gripe about being nerfed. There is no way to balance out the classes because the classes perform entirely different functions. Lets face it, nobody really plays pvp like they do an instance. There is no real team work for the most part so you have to be able to 1v1 and MMO pvp just cant provide that on an equal basis and in reality it shouldn't because of the class based system. If you want PVP then I would suggest you play shooters where it is more condusive to balance and one ability. complaining about PVP in an MMO is kind of silly in my estimation. Its a bonus fringe capability that nice to have but in no way is it essential and to tell the truth it just a side mini game. If that is the ONLY reason why you are playing this game then perhaps MMO's shouldn't be your genre of choice b/c you are clearly missing out on 95% of what the genre is REALLY about.

If you cancelled already then you never liked the game to begin with and that is fine, but its rediculous to put your reasoning on a singular aspect of the game that will certainly be fixed at some point. My question to you is how do you manage to play any MMO's. Every MMO that has ever come out all suffer from this same type of problem. You must quit every MMO you play.

If you were playing defense to begin with, you wouldn't have to "catch up". Just like in any sport, if you are out of position you will get burned. Unless you are going into hutt ball with a team and a bonafide strategy, how in the world can you complain about the game. It just stands to reason that you will always lose and that you will never be effective. The game is fine, its just not a game that is desinged for PUG's. Most of the matches I play in, noone even tries to score at all. Its just one giant match of kill the guy with the ball. This goes on for the entire length of the timer and the winner is always the last team with the ball. TBH I have never ever been thrown a pass nor have I actually ever seen a pass being thrown. I have yet to ever have the need for that pass icon. I am not even sure at this point how the pass works or what is the range on the pass. Its pretty sad, I know, but when nobody plays the game corectly that is what you are stuck with.

Awesome Article!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unfortunately, unless you are playing, practicing with a premade group all your efforts will go for naught. There is no way that anyone can ever collaborate like this with a PUG. To tell the truth the game is played more like kill the guy with the ball then Hutt Ball. Most of the time nobody even tries to score. I think a good suggestion would be to take a page from Rift and make the ball carrier slowly lose health the longer he holds onto the ball. At least this way it will promote the passing game and perhaps actually make people try to score.

Well I am thinking the point was that we don't have "adequate" CC while in pvp. We have blinding shot but that is it. I don't know if other classes have more than one but we only have blinding shot.

Bottom line is that the Smuggler is "too slow". The very nature of who we are would suggest that we would have some agility and speed. It makes no sense that we can dart in and out of cover but when it comes to moving we are like slugs. I love playing the smuggler but I find that the class has no answer to the speedy mele dps classes that just run speed circles around us faster then we can pivot.

I really like the "behind cover" role of the gunslinger from a PvE standpoint. I think its really cool and enjoyable. Since I use Wookiee as my companion I don't get attacked to often. I employ good tactics to minimize my getting attacked (ie blinding shot, splicint, leg shot, pulse detonate) As for PvP its a mixed bag. On the one hand if you have good teammates then you can be quite manacing, but if your team always leaves you high and dry then it can be quite the chore to fight off mele types. I feel that our role is very hampered angainst the speedy Mele types who just run circles around us. Our character is slow, squishy and not very good aganinst these characters. In Flashpoints etc, my biggest complaint is that the other players in the group don't seem to understand how our character functions or they just don't care. I find players are all to quick to rush into every mob without properly settig the table for an attack. basically what I am saying is that most of the groups I have played in seldom give me the time to set up in position, and either blind shot or splice a target to set up the attack for the tank. In some ways i really hate the force leap b/c it is something that just propegates the rush in gameplay.

Do you often make statements that you can't corroberate. Your still here aren't you?????

I understand what you are saying and I do appreciate the help but you are missing my point. Changing the way you play an MMO is monumental. You just cant change and expect to play the game. I just am not willing to sacrafice weeks of gameplay to get used to a new style.

I don't like the key binding. It takes me away from the action on the screen far more than the clicking does. I can glance down at my hot bar at the center and click what I need to click far faster and efficiently than i can trying to hot key all my moves I am a shooter player so I am most comfortable with my left hand on the WASD keys which makes it ver uncomfortable to try to hot key. I am not interested in trying to learn a new way to play largely b/c I would really suck at the game for a very long time trying to get the hang of it and really, I don't think it would be that beneficial. I can click pretty well and it would be just better to have 4 bars in the center like every other MMO. I do intend to key bind a few critical abilities to my mouse keys which will aid me in speed but still, need to have 4 bars in the center.

While I am aware that there are some upcoming changes to the U/I in this game I didn't notice any changes to the way the hot bars are set up. Being that I am most comfortable with clicking I find that this game is not very accomodating for those of us who are clickers and for that matter its not accomodating for those who are Macro users either. Suffice it to say this game seems content on limiting the game to those who are keybinders. Well I have issue with that. I am a clicker and the current construct of the hot bars is terrible. Its bad enough that I can only have two rows of hot bars in the center of my screen but when I go into cover (Smuggler) my cover bar takes the place of my 1st row on the center hotbar. This makes absolutely no sense what so ever. Factor all that in with the right and left side hot bars and it becomes a virtual nightmare for those of us who are clickers. My solution isn't new and its not even innovative. Its something you see in just about every MMO game ever made. Give me my 4 rows of bars in the center of my screen as well as the left and right side hot bars. I should be able to keep all of my combat abilities and what not in the center of my screen in close proximity so as to facilitate quick and efficient clicking.

<To OP> Am I a master of Platform jumping..........................NO! but I do have the ability to play them. The very thought of a Manifesto post complaining about the Data crons in this game has me ROTFLMAO. Really even with the fact that the mouse/keyboard aspect of this game isn't very condusive to platform jumping, it still is an incrdibly EASY feat to gather the datacrons in the game. The actual challenge in the game is FINDING them not getting them and with the advent of the INTERNET, finding them isn't an issue. I have gathered EVERY datacron From ORD mantell through Alderan (level 41) and I didn't have a problem with getting any of them. Just for the record it doesn't have anything to do with being a master platformer. That is just rediculous. Platformers are played on consoles for one thing and with game pads. So the entire argument is bogus from the start. People need to stop complaining about not being able to complete something on the first try. Patience is a virtue for a reason. Just like people who have no tolerance for wiping on instances these very same peeps are the ones crying about the datacrons. The data crons are many things but the one thing that they aren't is : HARD TO GET.

1) Its not a waste of time if you think the game is fun 2) If its not fun then DONT roll an Alt The main point being is that NOBODY cares which way you go and to make a thread like this is just foolish. I am pretty sure that many find the story just fine. To make a blanket statement that you assume that all the story lines will be bad based on one is just rediculous.

NO, what you shouldn't get is why do so many people have such a hatred for a game that: 1) Clearly has paved the way for every MMO after it. 2) Clearly has the right forumula for sustaining success 3) A game that they probably played for quite some time. 4) A game that they never even played Most likely its because they wanted to be special and be one of those people who played a game that not too many people were into only to have there heart cut out when basically their game of choice tanked, which of course is due largely to WOW's massive sub numbers. Sorry all you EQ, DoaC, WH, AoC, UO, and every other extinct MMO that WOW destroyed. WoW is just like the sports teams we all ove to hate. We privately acknowledge just how great and dominating they truly are but we would never admit it in public. Yankees, Patriots, WoW............all in the same class. Mass Success breeds Hatred. Always has and always will.

More than Rift but less than WOW. How's that for a guess:cool: Does it really matter what the active subscriber rate is? As long as the server we play on has the proper number of people playing on it, I could care less what the active subscriber numbers are. As long as there are enough subs to keep the game running and enough to keep the devs working on this game that is all that matters.

Simply put, its only a jab if you choose it to be. If you choose it to be a jab then it must resonate with you in some way. Having a job and having a career are entirely two different things. I like to game. Ive been a gamer for 35+ years. So it stands to reason that I don't have the time to play like I did when I was a teenager. The post is merely a compliment to BW for creating a game that doesn't exclude us career oreinted people; people with families and outside responsibilities. The fact that you take some exception to this post clearly demonstrates your AGE and your lack of understanding in general. You'd be foolish if you think there aren't numerous people out there that don't have real lives, goals, ambitions and treat this game as if it were there real life. I have two sons who are the epitome of that and its very disturbing. So, don't be so sensitive or so quick to judge. You know EXACTLY what this post means just as you EXACTLY know the people I am referring to actually exist in MMO's. The real problem comes from those people largely b/c they think that everyone should be at there level of expertise and they have a real bad attitude when people aren't.

Your missing the point. Of course you can make any game into a grind fest if you so desire but this game doesn't require it. This game is very efficient with a gamers time. I can play this game for 1hr or 1 day and I will get the feeling of doing something. I can log in for less than 5 minutes, put all my companions on missions and then log off and carry on with my day. That is a stroke of brilliance. The fact that bioware took the time and expense to fully act out the quests etc is very much appreciated. For me, it really keeps me connected to the story and what it is I am actually doing. The problem with most you out there is that you have lost the meaning of what an RPG is about. RPG's are about story and characters. Throw MMO into the mix and all of a sudden we lose the RPG meaning. I'll tell you what. BW, with its fully acted out movies will ensure I will roll an ALT or two or three and that I will play this game long after I level cap my main. Now if BW treats its expansions in the same fashion then it will have pure GOLD on its hands. As for you Attention Deficit kiddies out there. Whats the rush? Take time to enjoy and savor this game. Rushing to 50 in 1 week then complaining about how the game has no content is clearly foolish. Nobody cares that you got there first. Basically you just played yourself. Like the one poster said. " treat it like a fine whiskey". There is no reward for doing it faster than anyone else.

I see someone GETS IT. It is quite disappointed that the kiddies out there cant seem to grasp the concept that people with real lives, commitments, and responsibilities are also gamers. Hate to break it to them but just because we "grew up" doesn't mean we stopped being gamers. We still have all the passion for gaming that we had when we had no responsibilites, only now we just don't have the time. I would love nothing more than to be able to play a game 10hrs a day if I wanted to but that just isn't the case. So naturally I would like TOR b/c this games caters to us. Thinking this has anything to do with past "failures" in other games really just shows your immaturity and ignorance.

Not at all. I am merely making an observation. Not every game has to fit into a mold. Having read these forums for some time I have come to the conclusion that the negative comments largely in part stem from this game not fitting into the mold that those people expect. TOR is what it is and what it is, is a game that I really like. If you don't like it then just move on. Whining, ranting, complaining, and making useless comparisons to games of years past is really just that.....USELESS. If you find the game too easy then don't play it. I'm sure you can find something else to play. Its not me that is mad. Its clearly obvious that is you, the complainers that are mad. I really am thankful that BW has created a game that truly caters to those of us who have real lives and responsibilities and cant afford the time to play a game like it were a job. I reallly didn't think it was that hard to understand. As far as trolling, No, not trolling. If you choose to answer this post in a negative light, then perhaps what I am saying has struck a chord. Perhaps you know its true. If it didn't apply to you then you wouldn't be responding with such negativity.