I'll /sign anything that promises to remove the RNG from RE.

Easy, no credible person would actually ask for automation. You're right, I'll amend - not one single person has actually asked for automation. What they pine for in the privacy of their own homes is their business. No, you're a guy who tried to paint addon advocates as people who might also like automation. You did so knowing that no one has asked for automation in this thread or any other. That's a strawman. If you didn't know that no one had asked for automation, you probably should have read the thread to avoid looking like a moron when you made the assertion that I originally quoted. You can occupy any point you'd like. Just don't be surprised and/or butthurt when someone calls you on the more idiotic ones. At this point in the debate, I have no interest at all in your position on any specific mods. Why should I care what one guy, who's only interest is in being disingenuous to score some internet points, has to say about anything?

/nods Its a pretty good way to blow an afternoon at work.

I take it you couldn't find any posts to support your claim? I get that its difficult being called out for general obnoxiousness on the internet, but you'd actually come off looking less douchey if you slowly backed away from the assertions you were making about addon advocates and automation.

Sure you are. No credible person either in this thread, or any of the other dozens of threads on this issue has ever asked for automation in addons. Claiming that they do is setting up an argument that no one made in order to rip it apart. Pretty much the definition of strawman.

I personally guarantee that no one now arguing for addons wants to see the return of Emergency Health Monitor or Decursive in their vanilla WoW incarnations. Arguing that they do is an attempt to intentionally strawman your way to victory.

No one arguing for addons wants to see it return either.

I'm not a tech person, so I can't comment on any of the potential difficulties that may or may not keep them from implementing an API. I think its pretty obvious that they released the game early though. But that said, you really should think twice about your propensity to argue from authority. Its going to bite you in your stinky parts when they do announce one. Tinfoil hat much?

Do you honestly think if they took all that away, people would flock to trade chat again?

Well... yeah. That was kinda my point. My contention was that the majority of players didn't really dig the mandatory raid times, loot drama, farming consumables on a schedule, and etc. So when they had the opportunity, the bailed and Wrath (at least post-Ulduar) was the perfect opportunity.

Trudat. Most notably, the people comparing addons to hacks and cheats. Go back through my posts and find for me where I ever said DBM was necessary. I'll wait. If you were to ask for my position on DBM, I'd tell you that I think its great in that it adds another layer of accessibility for people who don't process visual information very well. Can't reliably see the goo you're not supposed to stand in due to some visual impairment? No problem, DBM can help you by presenting that information in a manner that you can process. That's what DBM adds. People claiming it plays the game for you or otherwise brings on the apocalypse are, at best, misinformed.

This is kind of a neat point and my response is probably going to go completely off topic, but I would argue that a decrease in raiding guilds in Wrath was more likely due to the raiding content itself becoming more accessible than it was due to any influence the LFD might have had. Wrath saw the rise of GoldDKP runs and pugs on a massive scale attempting, and beating, the normal mode content. I think that, more than any other thing caused a breakdown in many raiding guilds.

Given how much was spent in development, I REALLY doubt that 'go back to WoW nub, lulz' is the response the developers are going to arrive at.

The problem with the 'play the game the way the devs intended' argument is that its subject to change. You're arguing from authority, only the authority is borrowed from the devs and its just as likely to change as it is to stay consistently in your favor. So in order to fully embrace that position, you have to be willing to embrace addons should the devs ever actually implement them. Not to anyone with more than two functioning brain cells. Apples and oranges. First to answer your question, yes the Emergency Healing Monitor from CTRaid was a perfectly legit addon at the time. Of course, at some point prior to TBC, Blizzard determined that they didn't like that functionality so they broke it. This is the same type of disingenuous argument that compares Decursive in its original, vanilla incarnation to mods that may be available in a pending API. It won't happen. And you're still stuck on DBM? Seriously, give it a rest. Blizzard incorporated that addon into the stock UI and there are a ton of really good reasons why they did. That said, it wasn't required prior to being incorporated and its probably not required now.

Yeah, we really have no way of knowing why Blizzard did what they did with Cata and I quit prior to that release (and haven't been back at all yet! seriously, just got my '16 months clean' pin), but that's probably not a completely unfair statement.

So your entire point was moot then? No one in their right minds listens to those types of idiots.

I disagree with almost the entirety of your post, but this is what really caught my attention. With very few exceptions at all, the only people claiming that WoW raiding is too easy are the people who have never even attempted any of the hardmodes. Claiming that the raid game is too easy on the general forums is tantamount to tattooing 'I'VE NEVER TRIED THE HARDMODES!!' on your forehead. Say what you want about the hard/normal mode design paradigm (I might even agree with you), but WoW is still widely considered (by the people who actually do it) some of the most challenging raiding around.

To be fair, liking the concept of cross server LFD and noticing ways that it could be improved aren't mutually exclusive. I think its great in concept, but the implementation still leaves something to be desired. That said, I'm willing to give Blizzard a pass because they at least seem willing to continue working to improve it.

You said: The quote doesn't support your claim. It absolutely is perception bias. Blizzard never mentioned DBM as a source for all things unholy, nor did they attach a value judgement to its continued use and development. They never specified anything to the extent that you did. The fact that you immediately jumped on DBM is the definition of perception bias. Again, it sucked so bad and was in fact so game breaking, that Blizzard felt the need to incorporate many of its functions in the stock UI. Also did the same thing with Omen. It kinda puts a kink in your argument that Blizzard would do away with both of those addons when they include their functionality in the base UI.

Actually, I don't - and neither do you. You have absolutely no way of substantiating that claim. None. You want it to be true, because that would at least partially validate your view on addons. But your perception of how much addons have cost Blizzard almost certainly doesn't mesh with reality. Except, Blizzard (post-vanilla) has done an exceptional job of disabling the addons that they consider game breaking. I think your perception bias is showing. I've seen the quotes from Blizzard developers and I don't recall them ever saying any of that. I'm more than happy to take that back if you can provide specific sources though. And DBM was such a horrible addition to the game that they eventually added most of the functionality to the stock UI. Really, you're going to have to do better than just 'it sucks because I say so!'.

More or less mandatory if the game doesn't provide you with a means of forming your own guild and staffing it with like-minded people. If, on the other hand, your point is that the addons themselves are so wildly popular that its difficult to actually find like-minded people, well, that's not a particularly good argument either as it kinda suggests that there are no like-minded people.

There have been similar suggestions floating around since the inclusion of WoW's LFD and, as others have pointed out, its entirely too easy to game a system whereby the ratings are public. A better solution is to have what basically amounts to a personal preference system and have the LFD tool attempt to match you with the people you've previously grouped with, and rated up. As an example, you group with a person (tank/healer/dps), have a really fun run and would like to run flashpoints with that person again. You rate them up on your personal preference rating system. This rating system is only viewable by you and has no impact on the person's ability to get a group with others. At this point, whenever you enter the LFD queue, the LFD tool attempts to match you with people you've previously rated up. Conversely, it also keeps you from grouping with people you've rated down. BAM! Basically, the same effect as the system you described without the ability to be manipulated. Couple that with cross server friends lists, cross server chat for your cross server friends and the ability to form groups with your cross server friends list and you've gone 90% of the way to solving ALL of the problems some people associate with LFD cross server.

I'd rate their performance as about average. They had a tremendous amount of bugs at release (some pretty game breaking), but they've made a decent effort at fixing them. I would be pleasantly surprised, but surprised nonetheless if they were able to stick to a quick and steady content release schedule unless they drop the voice overs. I'm willing to be objective on all of that though. Rift did as good or better in squashing bugs/releasing new content. LotRO had a better launch overall.

Even then (I assume you're talking about EQ), the only way you were well and truly screwed was if you could build a consensus. Its still a myth that blacklists and servers policing themselves work as consistently and in the manner in which their advocates claim they do.

I dont' find your posts arrogant or unreasonable (can't speak for the guys you quoted), I just think your assertions are a bit off. What you're talking about is player-driven, not game mechanics driven. As such, I'd expect at some point that they'll add a dual spec.