This was the first level 50 character I had so it was over two years ago since I beat him BUT, I seem to remember it's about when you time your interupts. Update your gear and your companions, use Heroic Moment, and time your interupts. It's been done by people since launch so I think you must be missing something in the mechanics. (Thread is in the wrong place btw, might get moved/removed just fyi)

You've got a few nice counters to Hatred with Concealment. First, Evasion wipes all DoT's off you, so they have to reapply. Best timing for this is when they have their 2 DoT's on you and Demolish. Use it and they've lost a lot of dps, and time setting it up on you. If you attach evasion to your instant stealth skill (Which I've found great) This is a second full cleanse. Also timing your rolls for skills like Demolish > Assassinate and maybe Death Field too as that buffs their DoT's on you. All these if done just right drops their damage by over 50% Keep your HoT's up at all times and don't be afraid to kite them around the landscape and break LoS. Don't use Roll back to back unless you're running. Only do this in emergency situations, you always want to have at least one roll at the ready just in case, so keep an eye on the Exfiltrate buff. Knowing when this is coming off CD and having a good idea of the other classes abilities is going to benefit you more than any of these other tips. Universal one: Use Crippling Slice effectively. You can chain CS and Debilitate together for a full 8 seconds of them not being able to hit you other than Death Field and Lacerate (For the CS duration) Provided they don't speed away. Use it after they use force speed for best results. If they use CC breaker, then that's good for you, them wasting it on a root. And that doesn't even fill the resolve bar if it's empty... This is from my experience as a Hatred Sin fighting Concealment, they are imo one of the best 1v1 classes, purely because of roll, it nullifies the other classes best skills, nothing they can do to counter it if you time it right. Getting stunlocked is what will kill you for sure, so be careful when you use your CC breaker, Try and save it just for their 4 second hard stun ideally, as the others will break when they start attacking you (And spin kick is only 2 seconds) The Hatred Rotation normally goes something like this, just so you have an idea of what to expect: Their 2 DoT's, 'Discharge' --- 'Creeping Terror' --- Then 'Death Field' --- 'Double Strike' (Their Melee filler that procs Demolish --- 'Demolish' ( Instant Hard hitting skill with decent initial damage and a strong DoT.) Then finally 'Assassinate' White damage melee attack. With Demolish being instant, it's hard to predict, but basically they will use it after their 1st double strike (Provided they hit you with their DoT's on you. That's a great time to roll. They might apply Death Field at a different point, it kind of floats a little for me depending on the situation. If you've not been able to avoid Demolish on their opening rotation, right after it is a good time to use Evasion as they are using Assassinate. Which in 60 pvp gear is an auto crit on the first attack that rotation. By doing so you're ridding yourself of three DoT's on you and if the timing works, avoiding a 9k autocrit on Assassinate. Pull this off right, with your HoT's going, and you'll emerge from their opening rotation with full HP, or close to it, while you've been able to get a few good hits in.

Sometimes you don't want to use Adrenal and Medpack together. Infact very often you should use them seperately, depending on the situation. And blackout/force potency... It's an offensive skill, not a defensive one, why would you tie them together? Taunts are not an issue. Not that often a DPS gets over 40k protection in a match anyway. Sever SF/FiB/FB all wrapped into one skill .... WHY? It puzzles me as to why you'd want to over simplify the class to a 3 button class. Choices and keeping track of CD's/rotation using diverse CD's at the right time is what makes PvP, PvP.

PVE yeah, it's not viable for top level content. For PvP? Yeah it is. Full endurance augs and DPS mods with a shield in offhand. 12k AOE crushing blows (Autocrit btw) with my Jugg. That being the best skill but you still have other good stuff. (Average gear, 172 main/offhand) Full endurance augs because raw hp is better than mitigation stats in pvp. Any crit bypasses your shield/absorb automatically and Defence is a notoriously poor and unreliable defensive stat in pvp. You've still got the hp of a tank but now you can put out some amazing pressure on the other team. Even in ranked, this has been effective in some groups. Jugganaught also has the best defensive CD's in PvP, for a tank. Making it the best of the tanks (IMO) For DPS geared tank. With those CD's, you can be almost as tough as geared tanks which they are up if you're rotating them properly, all the while putting out heavy dps.

Nice vid. If you used hotkeys though, stealth capping would work well against decent players, not just the semi incompetent ones that populate the vid. Even if it's just your roll and sap skills. It was nice though!

Would be cool. But yeah, it's been called for, for a long time and the only thing I've ever heard from BW on it was that hoods are much harder than people think from a programming POV. But maybe one day we'll get these things...

Saying its redundant is laughable. I personnaly love the instant ww and use it for regs and the occasional ranked. But it loses it's benifit in solo ranked with it being broken by people 70% of the time. A good team ranked will be able to get the healer to clense it if they are on voice. 12 seconds of stun immunity is uncounterable. if you have your deflection on and get stunned, it has 0 benifit. All melee and ranged attacks get through while stunned and you've wasted a good portion of your CD and potentially been bursted down when you evidently needed the DCD because you popped it in the first place. This discussion really doesn't belong here and I'm kinda banging my head against the wall. Really cba replying to any more sweeping statements. The thread is about Roll and if it's OP. I drew the the comparison to the Sins very strong DCDs to illustrate it's not that OP a DCD, compared to most other classes.

If you were left alone for the whole fight then sure, they will pull you ahead for dps numbers, but not going to help when you're stunlocked and getting focused. Staying unstunned and alive for 5-10 seconds longer means you can put out loads more dps. Especially in ranked against hard switch burst comps

Better spent? xD Do you pvp like .. ever? Shroud has arguably better talents for shroud, but there is the extra 0.5 seconds of force speed attached to the same trait too. It's an incredibly useful one. There is absolutely no better trait that the 12 seconds of CC immunity for deflection. It's by far one of the best utilities across all classes.

Roll is really powerful but please look at the other CD's this class has. 3 second melee dodge. Okay... Then shield probe which absorbs an average hit. Then you have.... wait, that's pretty much it. So yeah, they need roll! They don't have any other serious CD's. Look at Assassins with their 5 seconds of force/tech immunity and 12 seconds of 50% melee defence chance + 12 seconds of CC immunity attached to that skill. Also force speed. Like the poster above said, it's only as good as the player. Try playing a scrapper competitively and you'll see it's not all you have it pegged to be, it suffers from a lot of bugs. The only place I'd say it's unessesary and over the top is huttball classic. It's 2 rolls from mid if you're on the top ramp and you're pretty much over the goal line. This is a bit to much and not sure if they intended the catapulting if you roll over an edge when they brought in the skill.

Powertechs are very strong tanks atm and easy to pick up and they also have some decent DPS options for PVE. If you were looking for a well rounded class I'd say them, if the play style suits you. Sorcerers are also pretty good all rounders too. Most difficult are probably: Innovitive-Ordanance Mercenary: (Best single target DPS in the game atm) Lethality Operative: (Not super hard but you have to really work to squeeze 100% out of the class it's 10m melee class so operations are hard on this to focus on mechanics and juggle your timers/energy.) Annihilation Marauder: (Probably the highest DPS for a melee, same problem as the operative being a melee class)

Personally, I don't feel it's a nerf, the Sin DoT spreading mechanic change, but it does ruin the feel of the class. I can see this change actually being useful in certain situations in 4v4 matches. It's benificial to use Lacerate/whirling blow if there are 2 or more people anyway next to each other, so no major change there. But it's going to be easier to spread DoT's to those targets who were out of range in the first place, or even reapply DoT's. We won't need to reapply Discharge/Creeping Terror, just lacerate and it's reapplied to other targets, then lacerate once it's worn off on the original target once the buffs wear off. With the removal of a 15 second DoT spread lockout, we will be able to keep it on more targets at once. Back to the original post. I'd recommend going Sorc as it will gel better with your group composition. If you've got a group of 4 people, two juggs (one of which can be a tank) So you already have 2 melee classes, a Sorc will fit in better, especially if you spec as a healer.

The Progenitor, if you're based in Europe.

Nothing springs to mind. Closest I can think of is the Troublemakers Duster. Lots of cheap items imp side that match that model. Or the CM version. It's not really armoured, a bit more like the matrix than a trench coat.

I've died a couple of times on my healers from a pull. Group wiped as we didn't have any off-rezzers. Fact is, I can't run away 50m from Darok because the group needs healing. Even when you do, he stills charges/pulls you. I'm all for HM's being challenging and wouldn't mind if they put a bit more mechanics into some of the fights to make it more challenging. -However- What I do not like is a mechanic that instakills you with nothing a player can do to avoid it. A Mechanic where the survival of the player is not based on his own skill, but blind luck, is not a mechanic that should be in any MMO. Some of the hardest mechanics in the new HM ops are great, players have to think, use skill to beat them. It's not based on blind chance. The only point I'm trying to address in the thread, is the Wookie. That's all. Not the blue circles, not the pull, not the stun from the Sith. Just the Wookie.

We do, Darok randomly agros people (Healer included) and uses pulls. I tend to get this FP a lot in GF, so had a lot of runs through it. It's often - Wookiee blue circle > Player gets circle > player gets pulled (sometimes within 1 second) > ''Jakarro kills you with impale for 0 damage''

The final boss, Darok/Arkous has some nice mechanics, the blue circles, the pulls. It's enough to keep people on their toes which is good. But what is a problem is Jakarro. He needs some sort of buff to stop him getting those blue circles. Problems happen when he gets a blue circle, and one of your team mates gets a Blue-Circle + Pull (Jakarro fights in melee next to Darok) It's an instant death with nothing you can do about it. Actually nothing. I know mechanics aren't designed to kill players with unavoidable deaths so a fix would be nice, thanks. (It sounds like this is a situation that only happens when the stars allign once every blue moon, but in actual fact it's pretty regular. Maybe 50% of the time. I've had less problems on my slinger simply because of cover screen. but when playing my healer, I've been killed off a couple of times and it's a wipe for the group)

First thing you said is spot on, and the fact that those who are out-dpsing you are Dirty Fighting answers your second question. Not saying there is anything wrong with the spec in pvp, but, like the Assassin Hatred, it's a DoT spec with DoT spreading. I'll use Hatred as the example as I've a fair bit of experience with it. Those who get the big numbers with these specs are often (Not always) Number whores, they'll multi dot, for no other reason that to get the high numbers on the chart. These specs have the DoT spread capability, and you will get extra fluff damage in any case from them, that's good, but it's not always the most effective play style for the team. Especially if the other team has healers. DoT'ing up the team won't normally stress out the healer to much and he can almost passively heal/counter the DoT's with his AOE heals. So, that extra 100k dps you might see on the other team, may well be wasted potential. Like the previous poster said, trading 100k damage for 5 extra kills is not a good trade. I know of a few players at 60 who almost always top 1 mil damage. (It's not actually hard ) Normally Hatred Sins or the Lightning spammers (Pre 3.1.2) But when you fight these guys, it's easy to wipe them/counter. They are more concerned with numbers than the objectives and their play style reflects this. Just play which ever of the three specs you prefer and enjoy for pvp, they are all good, and keep playing objectives. If you're sticking with SS/MM work on your target picking/swapping, you can cause big problems for their healers and 0 of your DPS is wasted, it's all poured into one target with no set up required. Blasting a healer, then switching to a DPS, then back to the healer quickly mops them up. (Before anyone jumps in, in defence of DoT spreading and it's wonderful potential yadah yadah, I'm not talking about 4v4 or ranked)

Of course they are not hard coded, but Sins do have the advantage in most 1v1's against any class. Only maybe concealment operatives have really good counters against them. When fighting them though, entrench, cover screen, use your roll, knockback, when he stealths, use your ship bombing AOE (Rep version flyby) Use your smoke bomb, dodge has a 75% tech/force resist when used in cover as well as the 100% melee/ranged defence, try and pop this on hard hitting abilities. When he procs demolish (If Hatred) or when you see him building up 3 stacks of discharge. The snipers play style has a lot of benifits in pvp, their immovable cover screen means they get to fight on their own terms and if people want to kill you, they have to come to you. Take advantage of this. And remember Hatred is now a 10m range class. If he's used force speed, knock him back and roll in the other direction. Leg shot him, channel a big induction, I.E Ambush ect and pour damage on him from ranged. Snipers also have some very strong Defensive capabilities. Ballistic Shield, Shield probe and the others mentioned above. stacking these up, using your medpack while still on high HP (70%) and anything else you can think of, makes your opponant feel like he's not getting anywhere, he's just whacked you for 5 or more hits and you're still on 100%, he's most likely going to get bored and move to another target. 12 seconds of Melee/ranged defence is going to hurt you against Sins, especially if you're playing SS/MM The other specs would be able to get more damage in, although the 5 seconds of force/tech resist is going to upset the DoT's quite a bit on these classes. They will however benefit from having Tech/weapon damage attacks to choose between, depending on what DCD's the Sin is using. Take a look at your utilities too, things like Snap Shot or Stroke of Genius, while it sounds really nice for pvp, it's not that good. Your GCD CD lasts 1.5s and the channel on sniper is 1.5s (The CD starts when you activate the skill, not when the channel finishes) So you're saving no time, it's just frontloading your DPS, rather than it damaging a second later. You're not doing more dps. Better to take Utilities like Seek Cover, and Pillbox Sniper and increse your suvivability/speed. Although you really want to keep the heroic utility for cover screens -60% aoe damage, the other slows on that tier are great for keeping people at ranged, try what works best. Basically, fully understand your classes strengths and force your enemy to fight on your terms. Controlling this fight will give you a big advantage. (I'm not a very experienced sniper/slinger but most of the things I've mentioned is from playing my Sin/Shadow and fighting snipers. Most of them crumple up and die when you get in their face, the ones that keep a cool head are more than a match for most snipers on an open field and a very big threat.)

Thanks for the replies, both very helpful. I've already been working my way through your vids and they definately give a lot of insight into the fights so thanks

Got a few questions about Slingers, I've recently hit 60 on mine and enjoying the spec, I'm also going to be raiding with it. I have been wondering what diciplines are best for what fights in the HM raids? Ravagers/Temple. I enjoy Saboteur and parse much higher on this, that the other two paths, about 4.6k with the set bonuses currently. (Not tried many and could probably get a bit higher with a lucky parse, but this is my average.) Only problem, when I took it in Ravagers I found was, with the movement heavy mechanics of the boss, I lose a lot of DPS from Incendiary grenade not damaging the boss (Because he's moved) I'm learning the other specs too, DF and SS. I'm wondering is it worth learning DF? Or just sticking to SS, It appears to parse about the same (4.1k for me) with SS being much easier to use and easier to pay attention to raid mechanics. Which boss fights do you use these specs and why? Ravagers Sparky: Bulo: Tourqe: Master Blaster: Coratani: Temple of Sacrifice: Malaphar: Storm Sq.: Underlurker: Commanders: Revan: I found the guide on Dulfy for SS hard to follow to be honest and just wanted an idea on the highest priority for skills of that spec. Currently I'm trying to use Penetrating rounds on CD, followed by Aimed shots, On CD if it doesn't conflict with PR. The it's Quick Shot (Sub 30%) Followed by Trickshot, followed by Charged Burst. Also, do you want 100% uptime on vital shot? Or just when energy allows? Just a rough idea on this would be helpful. Finally, is this the best rotation for a x3 wounding shots rotation for DF? Quickdraw -> [Filler] – > Speed Shot -> Wounding Shots Quickdraw -> [Filler] -> Hemorrhaghing Blast -> Vital Shot -> Wounding Shots Quickdraw -> Shrap Bomb -> Speed Shot -> Wounding Shots Quickdraw -> [Filler] -> Hem Blast -> [Filler] -> Wounding Shots Quickdraw -> Vital Shot -> Speed Shot -> Wounding Shots Quickdraw -> [Filler] -> Hem Blast -> Shrap Bomb -> Wounding Shots For me, I'm just not going to remember that on a dummy, never mind in a HM raid setting... If this is the only way to remember it, is the x2 WS rotation viable in raids too? Or best just to revert to SS. Thanks for reading, I've put a lot of questions in here, feel free to answer as many or few as you prefer, I appreciate it. Happy to clarify any questions I've made, just poke me if something I asked doesn't make sense. Thanks again.

Thank you!

Just a quick question. In terms of speed, does Telekinetic burst -hit faster- and thus do more DPS with the force speed instant proc, or is it as quick with the channel. It seems obvious that it'd be quicker with the proc, BUT the GDC that starts when you activate the channel/instant proc are the same time. (I think) Or is the only benefit of the proc so it can be used on the move?

I've geared for Ruffian but I've found the gear actually works really well in Concealment too. Crit 24% 7% alacrity and 68% surge. If you were going to gear just for concealment, then maybe drop alacrity to 5% get 70% surge and a little more crit rating.

For PvP, at most I might pick up a few pieces of accuracy, 95% at most. Any more and you will suffer to much in other areas. For scrapper in pvp, accuracy would be a waste, I'd encourage you to ditch any you have asap