VegaPhone
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If LA cares about BW as a major game then they should allow them to tell the story of yoda's race.
It would bring more people.
However, BW should bring the pvp up to speed. Having that as something that is lacking in your product which is also the product that reveals the secret of Yoda would kinda cheapen the secret.
Open World pvp with objectives
WZ - more variety
Large WZs
PvP crafting
Integrate some PVE that is exclusive for pvp as part of the objective and tie it with some story of the area and possibly has some consequence.
Also, the grind... I understand how having goal oriented rewards of better gear works... but dont turn pvp into something that revolves around that. It should be less obvious that the reason to pvp is about the gear reward.
As it stands now, lvl 50 pvp sets the haves and have nots far apart, turning it into a race for gear since its in a few WZs which feel over used after a certain point, which are also inconsequential to the environment... the ranked WZ makes it better. But that requires a team to group making it less likely, and we have not seen any real rewards from that... possibly a tournament.
Then there is the other things like 3d space combat, ship decoration, pazaak, swoop racing, NPc movement, chat bubbles, player apartments, and basically a lot of other long term goals in the game which are not vanity pets or gear grinds such as guild ship, or castle? etc etc
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It has great features, but most of them went unappreciated by the average MMO player, they only think about hitting the level cap ASAP and then raid raid raid raid "what the raids have bugs? this game sucks! I want a new raid every month or I'll unsub"
In part is Bioware's fault because they tried to appeal to that crowd by adding Operations
Really?
And having a $150 million budget with several years of development while shutting down SWG and being released with basic MMO features missing, among other things is not an issue?
If only the majority of the world were passive when they were being taken a **** on, and thier chain yanked would we have world peace, submission and conformity.
However, in reality, when countries have revolutions its because the government did not meet the expectations of the people. BW is like a bad government, and did not meet the peoples expectations... and they were not rediculous expectations considering they had $150 million dollars and several years.
So when you are glad you have freedoms in your life, then its becuase its ingrained into humans to have an opinion which for the most part is actually based on common sense.
BW failed to implement some features based on common sense. Hence this weak online 'revolution' of disapproval, which could lead actually to another/different want of a SW MMO if this game does not expand in the right direction.
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While Story is a nice part of the game, and thus important, but if BW had to choose between making the game feel like a Tripple A MMO with the required features (open world objectives, monthly events, mini games, more quality of life features to make swtor feel like a real breathing universe to including strange looking aliens, to day/night cycle etc) or using the Hype train of a SW I.P. to keep things limited as they are and feeding people more story in something that does not feel like an MMO experience due to several bad design decisions including segregating the faction questing areas, or using the fleet as a central hub with not much to do in the hub but look at general chat... while doing the limited end game ruining the large galaxy SW feel when in a small fleet... then it should be obvious for several reasons that one should be more prioritized as an MMO first... since there is also 7* other class stories for people to play which is already a ton of other content.
So to new players, more story will just keep them playing for another couple of days. It will make swtor continue to be the same feel which for some reason caused around 1.5 million people to stop playing the game... out of the 2 million.
Yes, the players who have been here a long time will want more story, but there are also other characters... and really this is an MMO. The story while it is important is more about bringing new features with the game as well when releasing more story for swtor specifically to bring new players and older players who stopped playing... since business wise, the appeal of story or alts is not that great as indicated by the drop in subbing numbers since people dont like paying $15 a month for more story... I think story in terms of success for swtor as an MMO is not that important to its customers since a lot of people here dont seem interested in playing alts but only more story which is very limited content in terms for MMO game-play. I will say the people who want more single player story for one more character, and not care about alts, will be just as happy with more end game mini games for thier single character... and the benefit of more features will be of a greater asset than more story... but both story, and content are very important.
So story is important, but BW should not have to choose. They should be able to deliver both.
The problem is that they failed to make a game that was good at retaining its players at launch and attracting more players as well - and thus begins the problem and also is an example that this game needs more than what it has to keep the players.
Also they story is now a 'free' portion of the game. This means that BW needs content that people will want to buy, and that is not just operations, but expansions, and not just story, since it goes back to the initial problem.
So maybe BW needs to take another loan and make the game better since the limited resources they have is not enough to generate the needed output to keep the game going other than making the most costly part of their game free - which shows the bad prioritization in spending their $150 million dollars in the game.
If BW devs believe in their product, then they should hire more people to release story and side content to make the game more into an MMO... and they will have to do this from the earlier planets as well. Thats a lot of work. If they do that, then the game will be much more successful by following the general expectations of MMOs.
Also for those claiming story is the most important since its the BW feature, well... MMOs are an overall package and story is just part of that. This is an MMO, with a need to pay the bills on the devs side. They have servers that cost money, or otherwise this would be a single player game if they focus on story and people not wanting to pay the $15 a month.
So in other words, BW needs to put features in the game to make it worthy of $15 a month... and of course to have story developed at the same time.
Personally, I will say mini games are needed more than story. If people want story play another class.
If they finished all the other class stories... well, they play too much, and they should go do some exercise. Since that means 6 years of development was burned through in less than a year, then how will a couple of months of development compare for a single story? That is why swtor needs more layers - or repeatable content while leveling and end game. Also they can make the side content will leveling such as pazaak or swoop racing something that people want to buy with thier 'free' story.
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Cash shops are an extra and not necessary
Notice how BW is essentially almost like a monthly sub model but with a lure to bring players in.
The problem with F2P is that the devs will bring enough players into the game, and possibly make a lot of money and avoid making the important content needed for the game.
The good thing is ofc more players, despite there being some maniacs online who like to express thier insanity with other people.
However, the F2P model indicates that BW is not ready to deliver the important features to avoid using the F2P model, or are using 'bad' developmental decisions as an excuse to put in the cash shop as an 'emergency', basically lying to the customers just to have a model that makes more money and avoid more negative back lash.
Since BW could have easily during the 6 years of development added more Warzones, include large warzones, more monthly events like the Ragkhoul plague, ship decoration, pazaak, swoop racing, and 3d space combat to bridge the gap of the planets that makes the worlds feel too isolated/segregated and create space pvp.
Had they done this they could also have included a cash shop from beginning, but did not. I believe that bad developmental decisions from the beginning to not include expected content for a P2P model caused them to panic, and either their panic mode was indeed a result of not including large WZs, or pvp mini games, duel areanas, rated WZ solo que etc or this was used as an excuse to make a transition to F2P.
The F2P doesnt bother me.
However, the lack of not including large WZs, duel areans, pazaak, and swoop racing, solo rated ques ... does bother me.
So the real question is, when will BW put that kind of content into the game?
The content which imo, would make people pay for their game, and not the cash shop... but get enough people and the cash shop is the perfect solution.
So, similar to how people gladly pay for a B2P model of GW, and knowing that model means devs focus on large content and not small cash shops would be more ideal... but a B2P could unfortantely result in more of the same... which BW did during their 6 years making the game, and almost 9 months after the release.
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I don't because there isn't any music provided by the game, I would get chills when I hear the music except that it is repeating itself over and over as per the normal function of youtuberepeater. I recommend using http://youtuberepeater.com/ for all of your music needs when playing TOR.
The rain repeating sound effect sounds very cheap with a short loop, and no randomization... and also the worst part is the sound of the rain hitting a small puddle sounding like a wet fart the whole time.
I know the link was about the repeater, but a lot of then recently watched videos of relaxation are just weird. I guess that's what people get for 'free' relaxation - a wet fart on a loop.
edit: there are some better relexation ones. lol. i just found the worst one.
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probably not taking down enough turrets from the large ships as the 'side' thing. Makes a big difference to take those out as well.
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They can do it.
They way to do it is with more of the alternative content.
Make crafting give expereince.
Have more WZs.
Have large WZs.
More FPs.
More exp from exploring and the buff from legacy is not enough to avoid side quests.
Have open world pvp that is its own game, and thus story becomes its own attraction with many alternatives.
Have mini games like pazaak than can give experience for tournamnets, or swoop racing as well.
The alternatives can add a lot, but personally I would want there to be player housing, sieging, and a crafting system tailored to that, that also had a pvp system that treated this area the same for all with a bolster system, and gave experience so that people can live a SW fantasy on various different planets and also get the narrative as told by BW when they reached the right experience lvl.
However, not having player housing would still be possible to exclude by introducing enough alternatives that prevented the need to resort to side quests. Yes, there are alternatives right now, but resorting to these alternatives purely to avoid side quests turn those alternatives into grinds as well, and the point of offering alternatives is to avoid the feeling of doing a grind.
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They should make a Kalimdor in swtor, with open world pvp, player housing, sieging, duel arenas, player bounties, water combat, flying pvp, old school mini games, and a swoop track that goes round the whole thing... and forces people to drive around it 2 times before they can play in Kalimdor.
But really, other than the wanted features for the future... any planet will do.
However, I suggest to focus on making the planets more panoramic. So its easier to get vistas on our screen rather than have to look up. So this can be done with valleys and having cities inside valleys or more mountain ranges allowing for better views to specific spots in mind. More high five moments.
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Well, in this case it makes more sense that they would want to work on an expansion of sorts. Also its true that free-to-play player will have Story free up to 50, but I assume they will only have 1 character slot, so if they are interested in more stories, they will have to pay, if they are interested in the story beyond 50, they will have to pay as well.
Yes, but being a paying subcriber unlocks everything for one month. So they only have to pay once to get what they want, and only pay for ops in the future if they should choose to do so.
It would only be something else, if indeed, after not paying and going back to F2P they removed storage space, GTN 50 items, and locked characters beyond the 1 character slot etc etc. Which I doubt they would do, so its really $15 for everything, and then what ever it costs for more WZs, FPs and ops after that first month.
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You can tell people have an axe to grind here.
So whats wrong with this you tuber?
Spill the beans.
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The point of F2P is to have more players who eventually will contribute by buying swtor goods.
Its not about being even, its about having more money to develop the game at a quick pace and this is thier strategy.
Its not a bad strategy. Its like having an online mode which costs money, and an offline mode which is free. But in this case the offline mode is better than other games.
Also the F2P model benefits subscibers, since a subscirber if they really wanted to save, as you people make a big deal about it, can save when playing alts to lvl 50 and not pay anything for it, and only pay when they want to do certain content.
However, switching from a paying subscriber to F2P, and back seems to contradict some things that a F2P player is limited to. For example the limited cargo space, or travel modes, or character creation - and it seems that a person can pay initially for these things to get it 'unlocked' then switch to f2p. Im not sure, but basically for the same content subscirbers get, a person can start with at $15.
However, imo, the premise of f2p is good, but the distinction from a paying sub to f2p is not large enough. There should be more subscriber content that is exclusive to make a person want to sub. For example monthly events, player housings, ship decoration, certain guild mechanics and exclusive activities etc etc, then more people will become paying subs than pass out on the benefits.
So there seems to be an issue on how they will handle the F2p model with its restrictions and how it transitions between f2p and paying subs.
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I have no doubt that financially SWTOR will do better than it is now moving to a Free-to-Play model, but I'm feeling selfish here. I didn't spend the cash for a CE of SWTOR and pay month-after-month for it to turn into a Free-to-Play game that will fundamentally change the development mindset as they focus entirely on what they can extract from people that stick around.
There WILL be power items available for sale on the market over time. It may not be in the first month, maybe not even the first year, but it WILL show up, even if they say they won't do it, they will and they will do their damnedest to deny that they are selling power-items.
They dont need to. Items drop quickly in swtor.
They might sell lvl in swtor quicker.
And if you got a CE, then you get more CC than other subcribers, so you are getting more of your money that was invested before.
The only issue is that pvp gear is still difficult to get, and if people want a short cut to pay for it, then why not. You want to force people to play 500 hours per character in just WZ's to get the top gear? It does not give them an advantage, it only equals out the playing field, and gives swtor more money.
I am not naive to not see the possiblities of something bad, but really also not paraniod and pessimitic to the point its doom and gloom. Its based on a logical approach, and if so, we can expect something that is acceptable.
There are acceptable RMT models, and we already know that BW has offered free months, and free content with $15.
At this point they want more players so at a certain demand from customers they can offer a good supply at a certain rate. Its paying the bills at the end of the day or more lay offs at this point, and they are taking a huge risk and this negative feedback is keeping peoples eye on this, so its a start, but once the facts show something good, then it should only pay off for everyone.
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Maybe the quote is out of context, and its meant to illustrate that swtor is something that is greatly enjoyable, and people not being able to play it would pay for the content without feeling hassled...
Except that analogy seems quite extreme. Better marketing, or maybe more context with the quote other than a link, which people seem to have not read since the OP has influenced several to dance to his tune.
edit:
After watching the clip, the OP is out of context, and should edit thier OP, or basically they are lying and misleading people.
It just goes to show that its so popular to hate on EA that people have easily organized into mobs against EA for the wrong reasons.
top two youtube comments:
I pirate the **** out of EA and Activision games. Get on my level.No idea what gamers are and want. Death to EA
With several upvotes. Just goes to show the mentality of these people and also a lack of comprehension and a slight ADD problem. I am not talking about possibly having ADD, i mean they really do have ADD, since they only hear what they want, and base this out of the rehearsed idea that EA is evil and know if they say something anti-EA they will get praised.
To all villians of the internet. If you want to be celebrated as a bad person, use EA. You will get 'upvotes'.
But to me, these people are sheep, and they failed some beginnings of an Internet joke, or psychology test seeing how people mindlessly organize to suit their needs.
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That is my largest concern. I personally hate the F2P but i agree with the guy that said NO Ops for F2P otherwise there would be no incentive to sub. Anyone has comments on how this thing will go ?
They should divide it as expansions.
The mistake from the beginning was that BW had patches of free content when they should have had a B2P or the GW1 model from the beginning. Then they could have planned better to have the important things at launch without the need of patches, and have enough end game content so people can wait for the expansion and pay for that.
Then there is no issue of transitions from P2P to F2P/B2B, since it should have been like that.
P2P seems like the standard of milking people during the hype phase with an unfinished MMO. Its the MMO trend, and the only fluke that manages to be a major success with P2P is WoW, but its also that it has a strong presence in the gaming community with Warcraft 1/2/3 and of course SC.
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I didn't read any post in the thread but the first, so sorry if this has been brought up.
People were held accountable. Most of the staff and management has been fired.
You're welcome, America.
proof?
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Somebody needs to be held accountable for this failure. F2P is simply an admission of a lack of leadership in my opinion. There are two options to attract new subscriptions: Make the game better or make it free. The first option requires work the other not much at all.
As a subscriber that anxiously waited for this to drop for years, then relished in the release only to see it turn out like this, I'm disgusted. I'm sick of the lack of communication, the firings, the empty promises, and the overall lack of leadership from a development team that seems to be fleeing or being fired quarterly. Does anybody own this mess? Where are the fingers being pointed? Does anyone feel this is how it should have turned out? 6 months into release and you're giving it away?
Somebody please stand up and take charge or walk away and let another person do it. This is a mess. How can you destroy something with the SW logo on it?
Not at all. Its adapting to the market and using the 'hype' to get the most money until they have to go F2P.
I don't blame the customers of course.
I more blame the over ambitious plan to develop costly VO resulting in an MMO that was more single player with a few MMO mechanics in a market with a lot of free MMOs, pirated single player games, and new MMOs coming up.
It was the plan all along due to their development of swtor... it was inevitable... and again its not the customers fault, but more with the law as well for allowing people to pirate material so easily, which hurts games and development making them more risky investments so devs are more conscious about their decisions and make 'safe' decisions which for some reason are bad ones for me.
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What happened to adding things like pazaak, swoop racing, gambling, and mini games?
They could have also introduced a way to make it so that their mini games allow for player made content.
They could have easily added varieties of Huttball maps.
A couple of more warzones with a choice.
They could have slightly modified the map with open world objectives for pvp, or quests in certain areas which can have a small impact like building favor in certain areas, and these areas getting stronger with their support and the stronger they are the longer people share those benefits... or add it to a new planet in the future having quests that interact with the environment more.
Or 3d space combat.
Player housing? The game allods is introducing that and they are free to play with a small budget.
I am not agianst F2P, but what assurances are we going to get that development will get to these things without focusing more on making the F2P profitable first prolonging the development of key features.
The swtor devs had a enough time after release to have another segment of their story expanded on to bring back the same customers and more... but with other key features.... just the mini games with player made content would have been huge.
BW, I just want to know that these key features are coming soon enough... and the best of luck to you with this transition, and really hope you consider the importance of
/open world pvp
/mini games/
/3d space combat
/player housing
/player ship decoration (trophies)
/more dynamic worlds
among other things like duel arenas and large BGs etc etc
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This game is designed as an MMO, so as a single player it would feel even worse to lvl in.
The huge worlds with a few creeps in between, and quite static. I think that it would actuall cause people to feel depressed by being exposed to such a lifeless fanstasy, or maybe it makes them happier that they can switch it off and live a real life without regretting stepping away from a lifeless world?
It may sound harsh, but the world is not dynamic at all. No day/night cycle, no npc routine, and the mobs are very static except for one odd npc doing thier patrols in a very awkward and systematic and programmed way that even that is not good.
So, single player would make people hate this game. That is why swtor devs should ahve balanced thier development a lot better. Its an MMO that plays more like a single player, but cant be a single player due to its missing elements of rpgs - multiple endings, or more npcs, and dynamic worlds.
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Good skill rotation.
Ammo regeneration kept at a certain level- and when to burn through it with regen abilities ready
read about all abilities - pve/pvp abiltites, heroic call, med pacs, adrenals, bombs that are bought, stims, food/drinks, shields etc
know basic mmo mechanics - interrupts, cc, and how to use cc when target is casting. when to use shields such as when target is using high damage abilities or soon enough to reuse after 1 min cool down. Memorizing cooldowns of your abilities to know when they are ready to use often as possible.
Key bindings for abilities will take you to the next lvl of gaming. At first it might be difficult, but after you get the hang of it, it makes it easier than clicking on the abilities.
Either you know this, and are good this, or need to learn about it... which means doing a little research, and ofc practicing.
Other than in game skills, there are rl skills. Doing math/puzzles, exercise, eating healthy - to keep the body and mind able to do the tasks in swtor.
It can be challenging even for skilled players when not over lvled for sure in the lvling part of the game.
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That would be a bigger disaster then the race into social gaming on mobile devices that they are currently focused on. There is no room in consumer products for more operating systems. It's one of the fundamental elements of Nokias rapid demise in the smart phone market (and RIM as well).
The only room in consumer products today for a new OS is a proprietary piece of hardware called a "game console". And that market is pretty well closed as well, being owned by just a handful of mega players.
I appreciate your opinion, but you need to look at the market and also the practicality of things.
Market: Consoles have not been updated recently, and there is room for PC gaming to become more popular
Practicality: PCs serve multiple purposes - gaming, work, or social media. New consoles would be extremely powerful that they would become more like PCs without the practicality of something versatile. So instead of turning a console into a PC, turn the PC into a console.
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EA should make an operating system just for gaming that runs on less resources and increases performances and can even allow games to run in multiplayer mode with split screens.
If they do this, they can make a lot of money.
BW also needs to realize that their development has to be prioritized with new content/mechanics, and if VO takes a lot of the resources then that prevents new content from coming along... and that is a problem, since new content/mechanics is needed more than questing.
Many complaints seem to be on the limiting content at end game, or the lack of life in the world and with NPCs standing still in cities or waiting to be attacked. That should be the focus, and with new content they should also work on increasing the dynamic feel to the worlds. The story is good especially for an MMO story, but MMOs are more about the online experience than a personal story... and it seems that is how the demographics will invest their time in an MMO that is more about story than end game, and not becoming an 'alt' game for them.
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How did EA ruin their reputation?
BW cost over $100 million dollars, and had several years to develop.
Do you think any other dev would struggle with that amount of money and time frame to complete something they are experts in?
GW2 cost less, and has interesting ideas... especially for pvp.
Generally speaking it makes no sense to have a game that has story, and well developed combat to not have well developed pvp as well. It just looks rushed or not well thought out considering that it is also expected that PVP is important for MMOs. ( 3 WZs at launch, badly implemented Illum, no overlapping questing areas, no seiging/open world pvp objective, no large BGs, no player housing/guild castles, worlds segregate players too much with also planets that are not contested or are exclusive to factions, no pvp mini games, no gambling, no swoop racing, no pazaak, crafting that does not require exploring as much and also affecting pvp etc etc)
So GW2 has a more balanced design when it comes to MMOs, and balancing the importance of the characters with content that supports the purpose of characters in MMOs and that is combat (my character primary function is combat and that is why it should be properly developed as a priority and everything else complements that - story complements that, but pvp areas are important and above the complimentary content especially for end game... and combat is not just with NPCs.
The story would not need to be an MMO to be played, or it would lack immersion or a sense of believable atmosphere to have no consequences to an online world, but only a safe single personal story, and that is just the standard really. And devs that avoid a believable atmosphere turn the game into something that feels very hollow and definitely not a tripple A MMO.
So how did EA ruin BW to make an MMO which is more about playing alts than the combat and content surrounding that?
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When people talk about changing something about the game either they are assuming the game needs to be saved, or they dont enjoy parts of the game possibly due to it costing 15$ and justifying it on a monthly basis.
Swtor is a fun game, and it mostly plays as an alt game to really have fun with it, but the problem imo, is the game hinders in different ways for people to play alts by reaching certain obstacles preventing this option to be viable such as:
1. Having to create several characters and depend on rest exp to play to avoid doing side quests for every character.
2. Paying for legacy perks with hard earned cash that is only for one character and not for the legacy, and the legacy coming late in the game is another problem since people might have already played a lot of the game and not get to use the legacy perks... which would mean they might exhausted themselves more than necessary affecting their enjoyment of other content and not enjoying the journey as much.
3. PvP comms. There is a cap. People cant lvl with pvp alone. They have stop at a certain valor rank or give up wz comms which will be very useful for end game pvp gear. So they can get exp, but the valor rank is quicker than the lvling of the character so the valor rank will always be at the cap quite quickly... making a person lose wz comms and decide to not lvl by pvping with a fun bolster system.
4. End game - Raids are fun, and gear progression can be quick, but overall the end game is limited to warzones or raids, and that affects the motivation to play alts and of course to those who dont play alts, to stay subscribed to the game... so making end game better for single character players also makes playing alts better when they reach that end game... and if swtor decided to balance development by waiting it out by letting people play alts until they develop the end game more... that balance was off with lvling not being quick enough, or enough to avoid side quests when in certain areas.
5. Standard MMO expecations - swtor goes beyond in certain departments but in others can be improved, and when they dont meet standard expectations for MMOs and for pvp for pvpers then people will miss out on a fun game that has great potential... but the problem is, that potential can never be realized or even planned since it could be more of the same as planned by the devs which could be a problem following the WoW formula but not quite as well as WoW does it with thier FFA pvp server for example, or the design for questing areas.
So had they made these considerations then paying 15$ would not be an issue for as many of the players for what a standard MMO deserves that kind of money, and sadly, the huge cost of VO which makes the game great, is not even an expected standard for MMOs so its a cost to the development that does not really add to the MMO experience... but it does add to the game. So it seems a lot of people are more interested in a MMO expereince rather than a developed story to justify that $15.
Will the subscribers have to pay for Makeb and new level cap?
in General Discussion
Posted · Edited by VegaPhone
If they consider it an expansion then they can charge for it.
At this point they are also playing with the perception of their customers and charging to what can be justified as an expansion or not.
The problem with their Makeb content is that it is not enough in terms of the wanted content by a lot of the other players. Then to charge them for an expansion while waiting for the other content is not going to make people too happy. So in other words the 'expansion' came too early.
Since the other content is not really expansion content exclusively such as more WZs, more OPs, or swoop racing/Pazaak mini games, 3d space combat (this can be exclusive to expansion players),
For example, I would guess players would pay for - An expansion that had exclusive open world pvp, race tracks for swoop racing - lets say that each planet offers exclusive tracks, Story for the classes, more companion dialogue, a replay of character stories, more levels, Planet ops/Planet WZ which are exclusive to the planet, vendors which sell items exclusive to the planet and sold for an easy profit to the regular market, new skills/items for crafting, gear which is exclusive to the higher lvls.
However as far as we know Makeb is a large planet that allows for a lot of confrontation between the factions, but is more story and leveling. Normally customers pay more for that, but it seems the perception by some is to not pay for that with a monthly sub.
The pricing model, with the released content at launch, and the updates in between, which were the best part of their update system, but was not really that great of a deal since it was the missing content needed for launch with not enough ops for raiders or not enough WZ, UI customization, ranked WZ, lfg tool, serve merge to save the game from segregating too many players etc so the updates were not really a justification to pay $15 monthly for something that was mostly a single player game and the updates adding to what should have already been in the game. So you arleady have a lot of people who paid for seomthing they feel was rushed and they helped to bring the game up to speed with the needed content, and still have missing content like large WZs, and open world pvp, and other important MMO features like chat bubbles, and quality of life features... and really paid for several months of below MMO standard features with the only thing worth mentioning was the events which rarely happened being only two times... so it makes sense that they initially mentioned Makeb was not an expansion... but things have changed with F2P.
So, they should somehow release more content with Makeb other that the small hints of what we heard... also, the problem with perception is that swtor has so many planets, and releasing one more planet will not feel like it is an expansion. Thats probably another factor as looking at another planet as a small expansion when normally in games like WoW a new area is a big addition to the game.