In your post you mostly describe regs..... any class controlled by a good player can do well in regs, my issues with our lack of ability to stay on target/sub par DCD shows its head especially in ranked against more competent players since it is just too easy to shut us down/focus us. Also your views on shadows are interesting..... I have one, it is my second main and I wonder how you came to those conclusions that they are both similar.....

Mainly this, there is nothing a mara/sent can do better than a sin currently with the exception of being a group speed bot in 8v8s.....

And a good sin who opens you from stealth should win almost every time.... The example was 1v1 can we thwart sins now and that is just not true if the sin is good and nows what their doing. I can hurt them and sometimes get close to killing them, but if they are smart and know how to use their cds/be patient I will lose because they will do more dmg and heal more hp than I can with better DCDs/control. Edit: this is mainly agains hatred/serenity against inf/dec I have had some pretty awesome 1v1 battles that are close. Lost some and won some, but a good hatred sin..... yea, good luck haha

I disagree 100%, if I have all my cds up on my shadow no spec of the mara is a threat in a 1v1 really. I have too much survivability/control and damage. Can I put up a good fight on my mara, yes but I will still lose..... Also if I want I could probably almost kite a mara to death..... might take awhile but would be hilarious/very sad.

Still think we could get some form of unstoppable..... Maybe it would be too OP but make it 5 seconds of cc immunity after leaps(No DR like jugs get) and that would go a long way. This or add something in for each spec, bleeds have a chance to grant blood lust(names are examples) makes sent/mara immune to all movement impairments for 4 seconds can only trigger once every 15 seconds Ataru hits have a chance to proc, *insert name* makes mara/sent immune to all movement impairments for 4 seconds, can only trigger once every 15 sec Fury, at full stacks of Koan dmg buff mara/sent gets movement immunity for 4 seconds can only trigger once every 15 sec Something like this would work well too. Still need to fix DCDs so we are not painfully squishy under focus and we will be on our way to being balanced.

/signed

I agree with your advice, you have to pick and choose your moments. However, we should be able to dive like jugs.....we are melee dps and the warrior class! We used to be able to dive and cause havoc/mess with teams and thats what they need to return us to. It's a sad day when my shadow feels more like a true melee dps than my mara does. I fought a jug 1v1 today, did him almost 100k damage and lost, he did me about 50k. It was still a close fight but cmon.... 2 lives to my one??? Nice job devs, way to balance......

Only issue with pred/trans as root break/immunity is that other classes do not have to give up dps to stay on target..... why should mara/sents??

For mara/sent 1. Get rid of leg slash bring back crippling throw/deadly throw with 3 sec root(maybe add utility for it) and trauma debuff 2. Give us root/movement impairment immunity either after leaps or for duration of trans/pred or in some other form so we can stay on target 3. revert UR/GBtF changes so it takes health at start of ability, add in -35% healing debuff during(add utility that allows it to be cast while CCed)

Very well said! We need some tools to bring our mobility up to the current metas standards or we need stronger DCD. I would rather we just got a little help to mobility and then we will be set

You are missing the point. We do not have the tools to do all these amazing tactics against good opponents! Regs are regs, I get it. You played against a good sent/mara and he did well, thats all I can say from your example. I can tell you that if you play against good opponents, it is much easier for us to be shut down than other classes right now, regardless of tactics, we simply do not have the abilities to do our dmg and survive. End of story, in grouped rank with a healer/guard we can still be very useful but once again roots/KBs kill our time on target and we need some way to stay mobile.

LoL keep talking tactics this and tactics that, this comment makes me realize you do not play a melee in pvp let alone a mara/sent. Lets see which melees have trouble with roots/ccs?? Sins/shadow nope root break/immunity on speed 15 sec cd as well as other DCDs that can cleanse PT/Van nope, HO on 25 sec CD that gives immunity and 75% super speed! Ops/Scound, nope evasion on lolroll as well as multiple ways to purge Jugss/Guards, nope unstoppable and root immunity/speed bonus in utilities. You can say tactics all you want, at some point when two players of exceptional skill go at it, you are handicapped currently on a mara/sent because of your lack of mobility and 4m range. Yes we hit hard and you need to be careful about giving us too much, but any player worth their **** in pvp currently should be able to shut us down easily as most classes have access to 1-2 roots and a stun(if not more) which if you are smart can make our lives horrible.....

I more said it was L2P for your team as you said he had no healer........ Any sent/mara without a healer in a reg wz is very very easy to kill if you actually focus him. Player skill of course is important, but the class does not have the DCD to make us "nearly" impossible to kill.....

You are talking to many of us that have mained this class since launch....... For me, I will not give it up and still continue to grind away. The problem is that we just cannot stay on target against decent opponents without giving up a large chunk of dps..... No matter of tactics will change that, if you play against good players. They will root you/KB and CC you like you would expect from anyone that pvps with a decent consistency and is a solid player. Without decent abilities to break those roots/ccs we are stuck outside of melee range doing small amounts of dps and getting blasted by range. The one small saving grace is that we will actually be decent in group ranked if we get some small DCD tweaks as Fury is pretty powerful.

I think it might be worth looking into, we do need something that will help us stay on target that does not take away from our dps(pred vs berzerk). I honestly still think we should get a form of unstoppable on leaps similar to vengeance jugs. No DR but some form of root/kb/cc immunities after a leap for 4 seconds would be helpful.

Also this, my shadow does everything my mara does but better and faster with more survivability...... With the single exception of run speed for the team.

Wow a Sent/Mara with no healer that was impossible to kill??? I think the L2P issue may be with you and your team if you cannot bring down one of the squishiest classes in the game right now. Also, I am glad he did 1.7mil apparently no one wanted to root him or use their KBs...... Can a good sent/mara put up good numbers? Sure, but if you play against good opponents you will get smashed as the class cannot stay on target currently with all the CC's flying around and our lack of cc immunity/purge with the exception of using our stacks for pred nerfing our dps.

Gotta wonder what the other team is doing if they let you burst stunned/guarded OP down without any taunts/ccs or peels...... Also you did what 70k in 3 seconds, that wont kill a geared guarded healer..... not sure who you were playing against........ yes PT burst is high right now, but SC will be toned down before season starts and without a off the GCD double SC spam........ I do not see you bursting down someone on hard swaps unless they are bad. Also you know that opening burst from AP is high.... Did you not try to mitigate it at all? No tanks, or stuns or what anything??

Burst comps/target switch are not as viable though(unless some major changes are made), Fury can put out pretty high sustain and good burst(not amazing but can be pretty high with Koan/crits) so you can wear the other teams healers down. The problem is our DCD are pretty crap right now so we cannot keep up our sustained when we need to take some hits till heals/guard swaps Maybe this will change but right now in 4s with a healer/tank I just do not see burst comps working as well since TTK is up. Or they could give carnage unstoppable on leaps and surge bonus on VT/dispatch and ataru hits but thats just me dreaming.

what he said

Agree with this completely, I wanna say they should give carnage an unstoppable talent in discipline tree, so we can have a cc immune period for gore windows. But this might be way too OP since I know the burst I can pull with an uninterrupted gore window can be stupid high. I think you highlighted exactly what the problem is and my experience has been pretty similar. I do hate that tanks can taunt in dps stances(and while I agree it is some of their utility, our utility seems to have been handed out to every class now..... so heres hoping for a taunt

If you let us both dps on a dummy sure, but in pvp and particularly ranked where players usually know how to use their cc/roots vengeance crushes mara dps because we are not able to stay on target anywhere near what they can. We cannot prevent a range from kiting us easily nor do we have the DCDs to stay in the middle of battle and take a bunch of hits without going splat...... Yes both classes can put out good dmg, but only one of them can currently stay alive/next to their target long enough to do it consistently(which is the most important part of melee dps.......)

Yes your spec is great in 8v8 for objectives when you have multiple healers and its not ranked. I will repeat the last part since you seem to keep spouting crap about your spec in wzs. Its not RANKED! Currently there is no reason to bring a mara in group ranked since we are not top tier dps and offer meh utility and pretty sub par DCD. If you want other good maras/sent to think you know what you are talking about you gotta start playing pvp at the highest level their is...... We have tried Fury and let me tell you in ranked its still not great/much worse than other classes(even with your leet pred spam!!!!!)

lol keep spamming pred as Fury in 4s ranked. I'm sure you are leet dps that can burn down, oh wait..... None of this matters Aluvi is talking about 4v4 premades, actual group ranked. Where currently mara has no place, show me screen shots of your amazing spec in 4s please and then in group 4s with real pvpers if it performs well there, then sure maybe we will give you something but I already know the answer..... Do not think we have not played Fury or tried it out.

He is correct, the devs should really look into bringing back some of carnages burst but the game is changing and sustained pressure(ie dot spread) seems to be the way to go against tank healer in group 4s