I'm the guy playing in the video lol That was early in the expansion and I've played the spec a lot more since then. Plasmatech at least is not a joke anymore in PVP. The tacticals are truly one item wonders. They give you two options for some insane on-demand damage in either single target or AOE flavour. I haven't tried any of tactic's tactical items, but at first glance, they all seemed pretty meh in comparison to plasmatech's 100% crit for 15seconds!!! or extra AOE CLEAVE on basically ALL attacks except high impact bolt. Both are brainless easy to execute and will absolutely melt faces. Survival went up noticeably in this patch too. Power yield with the utility point taken is a really good cooldown. If you combine that with the right price set bonuses you get some pretty high uptime on 10% damage reduction. 6.0 was an improvement for the class, that's no question. Feels like plasmatech changed from a bad choice to middle of the pack DPS for PVP.

Well the points you raised aren't wrong, but some are just not good arguements because they're too generic. The devil is in the details. You're using vague anecdotes that can be true for anything. You need to make a point about the distinctions between classes. For example: Assassins are screwed because because they can be kited. That's true for any melee. If you want to make a case for assassins, you need to explain how assassins are more screwed than other melee classes in order to justify the current insane opener. Also, the suggestion that assassin burst and control is balanced because anyone can pop a cooldown is assuming every class exerts the exact same pressure and responds in the same way. You have to say for each class what the impact is. To elaborate on that: If you look at 5.0 it was universally accepted Maras and snipers were the best DPS. Mercs too I suppose if you want to factor in dcds. Now, because every class has a cooldown to pop, would you say the level of effectiveness against maras is equivalent to the same level as lightning sorcs? Different classes mean the effectiveness is different. A Mara can be reduced to good damage from really good damage while a lightning sorc would go from terrible damage to non-existent. Fast forward to 6.0 assassins you can't just say pop a cooldown and you'll be fine. You must talk about how strong the assassin is in the opener because that cooldown's effectiveness is relative to the class you use it against. No matter how good the theory is, you should occasionally look at the results. As an example, when 3.0 came out Bioware radically overhauled the tactics and assault specs for Vanguards and gave them the more modern version of tactics and plasmatech. 3.0 tactics was a monster. Unparalleled burst and shoulder missiles firing every .25sec. When you pop your crit cooldown, anybody you went after died. It took literally no skill to execute and it didn't matter what your opponent was doing. The AOE damage was also out of control, the cooldown for mortar volley was reduced for tactics so much that you could continuously cast it for as long as you had ammo. The single target damage and stuns became so overwhelming you just didn't survive it. This class became universally accepted by all PVPers as way too strong. There were defenders of its OPness too at the time because the class was a little squishy. So, let's apply your argument's logic to something else. If you just keep the 3.0 vanguard at range they can't hurt you. Just learn to play and they aren't overpowered. Or just pop a cooldown at the start and the scary vanguard isn't so scary and therefore the class is balanced. Bioware did tone things down eventually, but it still wasn't enough. Tactics Vanguards were still blowing people up. It was so bad I stopped playing my vanguard because it wasn't fun. People had no response that could stop me and I was stacking bodies as no other class could. It's much more satisfying to play a class that is balanced or suboptimal because when you killed a vanguard you know it's because you outplayed them. Anyways, your points make sense at first glance but when you apply the logic they don't hold up well. 3.0 Vanguards ruined an entire expansion meta because they just stacked the top of every scoresheet with massive damage and a ridiculous amount of kills. The team with the most Vanguards was almost always guaranteed to win the match..

Now is the time when we juxtapose! No no no, not making any assumptions at all, are we? You genuinely and humbly believe that nobody thought of using cooldowns in PVP and weren't at all making an l2p quip? You have made some well thought out posts, but are you going to pretend like your initial reaction wasn't to assume "oh, this person criticized assassins so they're probably bad and don't understand the game". Took video evidence to confirm I am competent and you didn't really seem to know what to do with that information. You realized you might be dealing with a reasonable person and had to take it seriously. You have obviously thought about the problem and have softened your stance, albeit not humbly and more begrudgingly. Feel free to not comment on that one, but it's public for all to see. Anyways, more of my thoughts: K'rea, You also zero'd in on the lowest resolution version of the problem as your defense. If the player reacts perfectly in the narrowest of windows and has the necessary cooldowns up, then whatever overwhelming potential assassins have is therefore justified. An assassin can put someone into a checkmate position so easily and so early in an engagement, it's not even really fair. You are worried about the first 4 seconds of any fight and I'm looking at the course of 2 arena rounds or 10-15min warzones.

While you were not explicitly saying I don't know how to play the insinuation is there.

You know K'rea, I did make one suggestion that would affect the opener but NOT the damage. I haven't asked for a nerf to make them uncompetitive. If you read what I actually said I was very specific. Have you stopped to consider once, that maybe I'm not wrong? That insane burst in a double stun opener from stealth is actually really good. Your whole shtick has been anyone who disagrees with you must be bad at this game. I mean, you can dress it up as a chance to educate , but once you established I actually had a clue on PVP, you just move on. I guess if all you do is discredit a person you don't actually have to contend with the arguments they're making.

The point I've been trying to make is when it lands it's way too strong. If I don't play perfectly or maybe that one cooldown isn't up then I'm dead. I don't fear any other class in 6.0 except an assassin in the current meta. They are tearing people up as nobody else can. If you want to go back to some of the other points I've raised, I could help to clarify any confusion. I agree with the point made earlier, that stealth classes have way more gear than others and it's likely a significant contributing factor this early in the expansion. I do see other classes at that equivalent gear level and they're not nearly as scary as Assassins are.

This is actually a really good post. Very useful information for those who are struggling. I was aware of the setting personally and I had to make adjustments until things felt right. I really toyed with it when the servers merged into east coast only. My ping was significantly affected and I jumped from a 35ping to around 200-230. What I found interesting was that I had never really thought of adjusting that setting as a way of reacting quicker in PVP. I had always associated it with fixing latency. I shouldn't be saying there is zero counterplay to an Assassin, but a hugely diminished one. You have to play perfectly or you're dead. Sometimes, you can play perfectly and it's not enough. Context is useful when we talk about class balance because it's difficult to put 2 classes in a vacuum and come up with a theoretical way the two classes would always interact. Even more difficult is coming up with a conclusion that everyone could agree on. Player skill is also a big factor when analyzing things on a small scale. I thought I might try and provide some context in video form. I will call this I record all of my PVP and I end up deleting the vast majority of games. I don't like to post games to youtube unless they have something interesting happen or feature great moments of perfect execution. So, I went digging through the games I haven't deleted yet and found the one I was looking for. I wanted to see if perhaps if I could put it up as an example of some of the things I've been talking about. I thought this might be a useful aid for the sake of discussion. I am aware I am putting myself out there to be criticized and it's okay. Also, if folks believe they could have done better in the same circumstance, I would love to see your great gameplay videos on youtube. To preface this video, it was a one-sided loss and you could tell my team was bad. I know player skill is a factor in a lot of cases and that could be discussed, but it's more of an aside because you almost never see much of my teammates. My character is geared in low unoptimized 290s and has no set bonus of any kind. I'm also using the hot on med-shot tactical as it's the only one I have. Kre'a, you'll want to take notice at the start when I'm opened on by an Assassin. I rocket out immediately and root the assassin. I then break line of sight as quickly as possible to avoid any further cc. Textbook execution, amirite? Maybe we could put the l2p talk to bed on this one. I am aware there are SOME things you can do, but I'm still maintaining the opener is way too lethal. I have offered some suggestions on changes but so far very there has been little acknowledgement or discussion on that. Anyways, I appreciated your well thought out post and find posts like it are way more interesting to discuss. We can, of course, agree to disagree at the end of the day, but the conversation is worth having since 6.0 is the start of a whole new meta.

Read what I wrote again. I was very specific and careful with my words. I am not complaining about snipers at all. They are fine and I don't have trouble with them. I can see a sniper coming and they can't double stun me. I have options to counter play what they're doing.

I've played this game so long I have one of everything now for both factions. Since the expansion release I've only played my commando, scoundrel and vanguard so far.

You seem like the type of person who can't debate the ideas but attacks the character of the person instead. Weak! Explain how I'm wrong for starters.

You are dancing around this thing like you don't know it's OP. Give up the stun on Spike and turn it into a root and the damage isnt as bad. If you want to keep double stun give up some burst. You want your cake and to eat it too while pointing to examples that haven't been a problem yet. I don't see roaming packs of snipers instant ambushing everybody the way assassin's have completely turned PVP into a plague.

But you have to balance the burst. To not balance it right now is to not address the huge elephant in the room. The specifics of how to make the class competitive are important but a small resolution view of the larger PVP picture. The opener is the entire PVP meta because nobody survives the rotation. Sure you can break the 2nd stun with a cc breaker to try and defend yourself, but then comes the vanish and the cycle repeats itself. Potentially another 2 times too with tactical juggling all in the same encounter. Being invisible and blindsiding players with a double stun and crazy burst is way too good in PVP.

The only thing more ridiculous than this title is how good stunlocking people to death from stealth is. Being able to do insane damage is one thing, but being able to do it while your opponent eats 2 chained stuns really breaks the balance in PVP. Classes that do insane damage need to be squishy. Classes that can stunlock others have their burst tempered so that others have a chance to respond. Otherwise, it's not fair and it's also boring when you can melt defenceless players. In the past scoundrels/ops had a knockdown/stun on their backblast that was deemed to be way too strong of a burst+stun combo. It was changed so K.O interrupts and roots. See where this might be headed? Either some Assassin gear pieces need a balance check or something like Assassins loses their stun from stealth and instead get a root. The stunlock and strong burst combo is too good. Way too good.

If you only wanted to PVP then I don't know if it's possible to gear a character up, even if you worked at it for an entire year. It's not viable at all.

The combo of high damage and low survivability is what ruined PTs/Vanguards in the 3.0 era. It became faceroll easy because there was no counterplay to crazy damage. I'm noticing assassins/shadows are in the same circumstance PTs were back then. They seem to me to be proportionately hitting way harder than everybody else at roughly the same levels of gear. Maybe I'm wrong in all this, but I can't help but notice someone can mash maul and watch a 1/4 of a life bar disappear.

Can we balance how hard Assassins are hitting right now in PVP, before they make every other class in the game totally irrelevant? The undergeared ones are hitting for 50k and the geared ones are in the 60-65k range.

The class has enormous potential for damage and healing but it's tempered by the fact it has a very high skill ceiling. It's not a case of anybody can do it, like face-tanking arsenal mercs. They're not cheating, it's more likely you ran into a really good player who mastered their class.

This is probably one of the most comprehensive guides I've ever seen. It should serve as a really good jumping off point. The expansion is only days away now, so It's likely some of the info will become out of date.

I'm looking at where ruffian stands and it looks pretty bad. I don't know what the damage looks like at endgame, so I have to reserve my full judgement until then. I can only speculate from what I've read and seen on youtube. It doesn't seem to me like a bushwhack AOE build would kill anyone, so all its related gear seems worthless for PVP, aside from wanting to number farm. The tactical to blow up your own dots seems dumb. It only blows up the remaining time spent, so you have to put up your 2 dots and then blow them up right away or you don't use it effectively. Afterwards, your brutal shots don't have a strong punch anymore. The optimal brutal shots window is the only way a ruffian is seriously going to kill anyone and without that strong burst, scrapper spec is a much better alternative. That tactical should really be changed into dot protection for PVP: Dots that get cleansed/purged instead cause them to deal their full damage and maybe even in addition stun/snare/root/whatever the person too. THAT would be a way more attractive tactical that what's on the table now. It would offer a solution to balance how punishing the spec's ramp-up time is. The tactician set and the debilator set both seem worth trying. Honestly, I can't make an argument for using ruffian over scrapper once the expansion hits.

The only snipers who get shredded are the bad ones. Snipers are simply amazing in PVP.

They're two very different classes. Go with the one you like best. You haven't played the classes long enough to really get a feel for them. If you want to solo things go scoundrel. hands down way easier. For groups if you're prepared to tank you will get near instant group queues with a vanguard. If you're prepared to heal on a scoundrel you'll get a faster q but may take a while. It's still shorter than what a DPS has to wait.

The PVP meta is going to change in a couple months anyway with the launch of the next expansion. It's anybody's guess how the classes are going to look when it comes out. Whatever class you decide to play right now is not going to be the same once the expansion comes out.

I'm speaking from the perspective of somebody who has PVPd in MMOs for the past 19 years, so I've seen a few things. I've been doing PVP in this game since it launched. I've been a part of those zerg groups where we just completely outclass and out-skill the other team. I can only tell you my personal experience, but it's not fun killing people who are defenseless. I find it much more satisfying to beat skilled opponents. At first it's fun to blow people up but I like to have some challenge. If it's too easy it really isn't as fun. I have no qualms about farming people though. I can tell when the teams are horribly balanced and I know it's not fair, but I'm going to do my best and I expect you to do the same. The results take care of themselves. Get good or get wrecked. These kinds of games don't happen often. The biggest problem is always the huge gap of player skill between the teams. You could try to correct the problem by putting in a potent matchmaking system with it's ever increasing criteria changes to help make the finer distinctions to define what constitutes fair teams. This would have to come at the expense of q times of course. So would you prefer to wait potentially way longer for the necessary pool of players or do you just want to wait less than a minute for a pop and get right to fighting? I almost exclusively just solo q for regs these days and I look forward to the games where there's a preform on the other side. There's usually a good chance there is good players on the other side. I am probably in the minority here because I am completely capable of handling myself.

The DPS rotation doesn't change in PvP. What's optimal in pve is good for pvp too. You may need to interrupt your rotation with gcds for other things, but the baseline DPS rotation for best output does not change.

I agree with the sentiment that bioware has never really balanced the PVP meta in a thoughtful way. Consistently since 2.0, I have observed a big class shake up with every expansion followed by a DPS balance check on the worst offenders. I think bioware reaches a certain point where they decided we've done enough for now and in a year and a half when we release an expansion, we can just fix any remaining problems then. I think the length of time between meaningful changes just leaves wounds to fester for too long. it would be more desirable to have smaller incremental changes than huge sweeping changes that require further rebalance. What it all means is that for the next expansion, once we see how the PVP meta looks we can expect it will stay that way.