you obvious didn't read my post then, not an attack on you or anything, What i wanted was the 3 dimensional feel of the Characters, the plot and player character growth all working in perfect union. I don't expect this game to change nor do i want it to. MMO's can't change due to its audience being very wide which means quality in some areas might have to be toned down because for an mmo developer if something is too complex a large chunk of people will quit because its too confusing or w.e. Single player Rpgs however, they have more potential than mmos will ever have. Is it so much to want a story that i can remember for years upon years to come? To feel the blade of a knife to my heart when a companion/dies and it cannot be changed because of a choice you made? Is it so much that the Pro and antagonist can't have a confrontation that is both Personal and has some weight to it. It doesn't even have to be the fate of the universe. It could very well be that the pro and antagonist would just be on a path to a goal or ambition and the other stands in their way. Or perhaps the two characters are old friends who have built a friendship with eachother through a honorable rivalry with each other but it had escalted to the point where they both respectively felt compelled to conclude it. Or maybe the mentor would orchastrate an elaborate series of trials and challenges so that their star student could triumph against them all so that they would be prepared for the ulimate test which would be to kill the mentor. The mentor would do this under the idea that unless the mentor falls the student could never advance. i am pretty sure this is why the Bane stories work on some level. However, for my example the mentor and student would have actually been teachign eachother and developed a strong bond over the course of the journey. I mean this type of plot point would work to prepare the protagonist for the challenge that is greater than even the Mentor was capable of. Idk maybe i just want the personal feel to a story again. I only expect this from a single player not an mmo.

Fair argument, i was just wondering if it was possible for the main character to have a more active role in the story than just going through points A-T. I guess what i really want is for character presence to emerge. Like how there is a plot but then a secondary plot dealing with the main characters flaws and learning to overcome them or turn them into a strenght. That type of thing. I don't know about everyone else but in Kotor 2 for example i felt like my character was growing and learning as the game played out. Maybe it helped that there was a strong mentor figure for the character to feed off of in the form of Kriea. I mean i will admit i get a minor sense of that (i mean minor cause its implied that Baras actually teaches you stuff unlike Zash who just sends you on errands. Baras sends you on errands too but at least i feel as though hes teaching the SW something.) Who knows maybe i spoiled myself on playing Torment and Sith Lords.

I don't hate this game i was only speaking about the future of video game story telling. That is all, My only complaint with this game is the SI. I love the game otherwise but on the flipside i realise that the game's audience limits an mmo's story telling potential. Does that mean this game is bad? No i love the game. I just miss the days when single player RPGS actually made a character out of the player. I gave my examples, surely there are others but i am starting to become afraid for the future of Story telling in videogames. Unlike most people i didn't like DAO or think its antagonist was really intimidating. And No matter how many times i play Mass effect i do not get the Reaper's motivation. TOR is Excluded from this argument from this moment forward. Thanks for the feedback thus far. Much appreciated.

I've been playing TOR for awhile, I think the Sith warrior and Bounty hunter storylines are enjoyable so far. Not the best thing in the world but still enjoyable. However, i do have one question. Should the fact that the medium is a video game and not a book make it ok to create subpar or just Basic level of good when it comes to writing characters and stories in general. I guess i am just expecting too much but i really wish a story would try and include the main character in the writing process. What i mean is allow an opportunity for the player to examine not only themeslves but the actions they have made. Through this internal look at oneself the player/main character could be put in a position to decide if what they have done so far is necedarilly what they want to continue doing. They could go through a change of some sort, learn something about themselves that they didn't before. Grow as a character basically. Maybe my expectations are high but i don't think that "Just because a PCC is controlled by the player that there is nothing more to it. Is it so wrong to want the player character to feel involved in the story rather than a prop to it? I know it isn't fair but for example in Planescape torment the game was practically about the main character. Same with Kotor 2, The player character was almost the central focus of the whole game in that Her actions are haunting and she has to overcome her past to face the present and future. Am i saying that all characters should be like the exile? No i am just asking if a video game can ever support the concept of Characters driving the plot and not the plot driving characters. I obviously am not expecting this game to change because of my minor complaint but is it possible for any game in the future to do this? The pro and antagonist being well developed (maybe 3d characters) and at the end their ambitions/ goals would clash and maybe the protagonist might not even win persay. Idk about anyone else but Archdemons/Reapers don't cut it. anyway what are your thoughts?

THe presidency is giant circus. Who takes it seriously. Besides people forget that the American senate is full of dellusional idiots who are out of touch with reality. I say better idea is to boot the old people out and put some people who actually have used the internet and modern technology. You are kinda implying that men are inferior in this respect. Well to put it bluntly, leaders are only as capable as the power they are able to hold. In summation, eliminate the old people in the senate and get a person who knows how to command.

HOW have they retconned it this time? did they remove its existence too?

Gender shouldn't matter, People complaining like children between men and women on these forums is getting rediculous now. So what if a woman has a slight genetic handicap its been proven time and time again that smart women make up for it with manipulation skills. At the end of the day strength is made of the power of mouth and power of the physical. Anyone who masters both deserves the right to declare how strong they are. Strength also is determined by individuals not groups. Just because men have an inherit advantage physically doesn't mean a damn thing in todays society. Back to what i said about word of mouth, in today's world word of mouth can cause more damage to people's lives than brute strength. The only way where physical difference really mattered is i guess is in the middle ages where hand to hand combat was common and swinging Zwei handers was commonly a man's thing. Same with other bladed or blunted weapons, it was because of how heavy they were. I have no problem lifting a one handed sabre (1800s style) but medieval weapons were considerable heavier so i would probably need two hands to use a long sword ( i am out of shape so i guess this comparison is bad) can we please stop waving the sexism cards and just play the game? (Trying to be polite here while being honest from experience)

i know how perfect it is. Others do not and this baffles me

what i meant was the Galaxy wold be near broken from fighting the sith (again) Imagine a galaxy that fought the most destructive and costly conflict in the history of starwars. Now imagine recovery and the republic being near the bottom of the ocean deep in debts. Thats what i meant. THe sith aren't the dark side. Just because they would be gone does'n't mean other dark siders can't exist. In terms of the jedi i was kind of aiming to have had their arrgoance explode since they would have an excuse to crack down on the galaxy. THe senate would be more useless than usual. THe sith being gone would of been a statement on how a culture that thrives on death will eventually destory itself unless refined. I do like your constructive feedback, much appreciated.

I was thinking of doing something set 10-15 thousand years after return of the Jedi (to start a clean slate so i wouldn't be needing other people's characters) The sith would be gone due to their own teachings finally catching up to them in the end. THe galaxy is broken (meaning the republic is on the verge of collapse) Riots are breaking out in the streets due to the Jedi order taking an active role in polotics and keeping order. Since the Jedi would have secured a means to wiping out the sith forever they would want to ensure that no other dark sider rises to power. So to this effect the jedi would stamp out any force user that wouldn't join the order. (this only would work because in the setting i am thinking of using the republic citizens would have mized opinions about the Jedi's intervention in a weakened republic. Unknown to the majority of the galaxy Criminal cartels are slowlly desolving (example the Hutts and any other criminal cartel established so far) Meanwhile bounty hunter seem to be getting more work now then ever despite the impending galactic collapse. ( the main character would be a bounty hunter being caught up in the galactic events unfoldin) As you would expect things only get worse from here so i made this thread to see what type of themes and stuff would be inapropriate in a starwars story. I need to know if ripping out the black and white morality out of starwars for once would be acceptable

i agree with that.

tech heavy? how so? seriously i am interested as to how that could be a problem

Just wanted to know what types of themes people don't want in a starwars story. And also what plot threads to not bother with

Well go on, how would any of you have ended it? i won't go explaining the actual ending again (my old posts with those explainations are all gone since bioware nuked the forums) anyway lets see what everyone's minds can come up with