While the DF tree hasn't been covered as extensively as the other two on this site, I found this thread on sithwarrior.com to be very helpful with understanding rotations for each spec. Specifically check out the entry for DF towards the bottom of the post I linked. You'll notice with the different specs, DF uses waaaay more free shots (Rifle Shot/Flurry of Bolts) than the other two trees. Based on damage per energy, a lot of your abilities are simply not worth it for a boss fight. I respec'd sharpshooter for a week doing EV and Karagga's and, even though I can see it's value, the rotation is very unforgiving if you have to be up and moving around half the fight (like a majority of boss fights so far). I went back to DF and ran EV hard mode and it's just a much more fluid experience and gives me the resources to react to a lot of unexpected situations. At 50 with decent gear (I have full Columi + 1 piece Rakata) your free shot is doing 1000+ dmg (with your high crit rate) plus all the added DoT damage which you exploit using Wounding Shots/Cull. You may not do as much sustained damage as a perfect scenario SS or Sabo, but you're able to move easier without sacrificing abilities and our damage jumps significantly in that last 30% (which is very helpful if you find you're running in to enrage timers.) My general rotation goes like this: Vital Shot -> Hemorrhaging Blast -> Shrap Bomb -> Wounding Shots -> GCD Filler -> GCD Filler -> GCD Filler -> Wounding Shots -> Repeat With the cast time of Wounding Shots, you should still be around 60% energy by the end of your first cast of that ability. Then it's up to you how to manage the next few shots before you can get your second Wounding Shots off, allowing you to use it twice per DoT application. If you're having energy issues, make most of those fillers Flurry of Bolts. If Cool Head is off cool down or you find yourself at 70-80% energy, throw in an XS Freighter Flyby, Aimed Shot or Charged Burst. It takes some getting used to, but I rarely find myself struggling with energy anymore as long as I keep cool and that instinct to "USE ALL THE ABILITIES" is properly subdued.

Thanks for posting this. I was in the middle of writing a long, thought-out response using energy costs, theorizing different scenarios that favor both the GS and the person cleansing, linking to abilities...so on and so forth. But then I saw this and realized you're not worth the time. I'll let you believe that cleanse is an "I win" button against a Dirty Fighter as I continue to do just fine against players like you.

I'm going to have to quote myself here because it seems people are missing the point. Is cleanse a hard counter to a DF specced class? Yes. Absolutely. Does that one person casting cleanse mean the spec is worthless? Not if you "have a brain". I've had my DoTs cleansed in PvP before. Do you know what I do? I burst the target down with sab charge and speed shot. I LoS them and find new targets. I start DoTing five other people with shrap bomb and vital shot so while they're busy cleansing everyone, I can either run or burst the healer down. Or I can target players that are already at <50% and burst them down. I dirty kick them, I knock them back, I throw grenades (all abilities that are buffed by the DF tree that is apparently worthless after one cleanse). It just seems to me you guys are arguing about counter abilities being used in a vacuum where two people never move and stand 10m from each other exchanging fire. That is never, ever the case in PvP. Is the Dirty Fighter tree based on DoTs that have the potential to be cleansed? Yes. But the tree is ALSO about mobility and utility which you can not cleanse away. Don't like that the three core abilities of the DF tree can be cleansed and you seriously feel helpless at the hands of one enemy? Use a hybrid spec with saboteur for added AoE damage and burst. Destroy the person cleansing and then continue to happily DoT away. There are always options.

Here's what I know: Shock Charge does not count as a "bleed" effect (doesn't add to the damage of Wounding Shots) but I'm uncertain if any talents effect it's damage despite it technically being a DoT. I would think any DoT talents would buff it but I'd have to test it out. XS Flyby is considered an AoE for talent purposes. The only two abilities that are considered "bleed" effects are Vital Shot and Shrap Bomb, which means they do "internal" damage. Shock charge does "energy" damage. Elemental and internal ignore armor, kinetic and energy do not. The proc of Wounding Shots (that is, not the base damage but the added bonus for each bleed you have up) is also considered a bleed effect. You'll notice if you have hemorrhaging blast on the target as you cast Wounding Shots, the proc of WS will eat away your 10 charges of HB very quickly.

And all it takes is one stun for you to not get your cleanse off. What's your point? You keep trying to convince people who have had a lot of success with the Dirty Fighter spec that their experiences are invalid because you think one ability can negate the entire toolbelt of a class. This is a bad argument and absolutely wrong.

The only one I know of is the Jedi Guardian, but they do not stack. They build armor debuff stacks on a target up to 5 using Guardian Slash, but it takes longer to build up compared to our single application of flourish shot. So, in raid situations I wouldn't bother if you have a Guardian tank. In PvP, however, it depends on how reliably they can build their stacks on one target. A full stack vs flourish shot gives the same debuff from what I understand (20%) but theirs is tied to a damaging ability they use anyway, so they'll be applying it regardless of what you do.

So does Hemorrhaging Blast which gives me 30% increased damaged on the next ten bleed effects. If I'm keeping my rotation so I stay over 60% energy, after casting vital shot, shrap bomb, hemorrhaging blast and wounding shots - that's 80 energy right there. I have talented abilities to give added energy per bleed crit and it takes a few seconds to cast this chain and wounding shots is channeled giving me a few seconds of regen while this chain is happening, I can usually accomplish staying over 60% to keep my full energy regen going. That's difficult as it is for just the core abilities in the DF tree. Flourish Shot is just one more ability that makes it that much harder to keep my energy levels where I want them to be. Of course I'll use it if I have the energy to spare, but my rotation usually leaves very little wiggle room for it. It's just not worth casting it most of the time compared to the damage I do with my 31-point DF ability. That's not to say there aren't moments where I say screw energy regen and just blast through my energy and use a cool head to get my levels back up. You better believe I'm using every ability then.

I love that idea. Only difference it that I would make it a higher level talented ability. As an example, "Infectious Wounds" (0/2) Flourish Shot reduces healing on target by 10%/20% for 10 seconds.

Really depends on what spec you're rolling with and who your target is. Flourish shot doesn't factor much in to a DF spec because the majority of your damage is not affected by armor rating anyway. It's more useful for Sharpshooter or Sab spec because you rely much more on kinetic damage that is mitigated by armor. Saboteur has two top end talents (Blazing Speed to give speed shot burn/elemental damage and Incendiary Grenade) that bypass armor as well. Even then, I would only use it on heavy armor targets anyway for the reason you mentioned. I try to focus on healers/squishy damage dealers first anyhow, so it's utility in PvP (at least for me) is pretty low. If you have the energy to spare and possibly waiting on a cooldown, go for it. Otherwise I'd just keep your damage flowing.

I'm tired of this "with a brain" comment. Skilled players still get confused, still get overwhelmed, still have limited abilities to deal with the hectic nature of PvP. Maybe in a 1v1 situation someone could cleanse perfectly and nullify a good chunk of DoT damage. When you have twenty people circling you in world PvP, stunning you, interrupting you, knocking you down or back...it just doesn't happen. Though I'm sure you are all special little snowflakes that never falter ever in combat in this less than two months old game, this is not the case with a majority of players. I routinely play warzones and world PvP against premades as a DF gunslinger and it doesn't stop me from doing a LOT of damage. On top of that, you can't cleanse all the DoTs all the time. If you're playing DF and only targeting one person until they are dead, you're not playing this spec to it's optimal potential. This guide here has some pretty good insight in to how a DF/Lethality spec should be played. In short, you should be DoTing as many people as possible and then picking off the stragglers with your burst damage.

As much as I would enjoy some of these things on my Gunslinger, they would make any skilled player truly OP. Problem is that we have people using their experience sub-50 and then right at 50 without gear as an indicator of the overall health of the class. If you allowed me to use cover pulse and sabotage charge without using cover (especially now that I have some decent raid/pvp gear) I would be a BEAST in PvP. I already do pretty well (as long as I'm not pugging in to a bad match) but any of those things would make me nearly untouchable. It may be hard to see right now, especially with the cover issues/bugs, but I think our class is balanced pretty well the way it is. As for giving us sniper rifles and an offhand shield? Just...no. I know those rifles look cool, but that's just not this class. Our counterpart doesn't get a shield either and this would just greatly unbalance things. Maybe maybe it'd be OK to allow rifles but the offhand would have to be a shotgun like our Scoundrel brothers. Also, I firmly disagree with AC respecs. That's your class, not your specialization. It's a completely different experience. If you made a choice you don't like a) reroll and try again or b) respec within your class to try and find something more enjoyable. While the changes they made to scoundrel were significant, they in no way changed the fundamental mechanics of the class or it's function. This is an MMO. Learn to deal with balancing or you're going to be continually unhappy with any choice you make. Scoundrels today, who knows who tomorrow.

Armor does not mitigate bleed damage, which is why DF does so well in PvP. Armor only mitigates "kinetic" and "energy" damage. Bleeds are considered "internal" and then there is a fourth type called "elemental".

Edit: disregard this - Didn't realize OP was Scoundrel, not Gunslinger.

Here's a look at Quickshot (Columi main hand - drop from Karagga's Palace) and the Champion PvP off hand.

GUH. I should have tested this further because I was hoping shock charge would count as a bleed for wounding shots. I guess "energy" damage over time is technically not a bleed effect? Looks like someone is going for a respec before EV tonight...