Karandor
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Posts posted by Karandor
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im kinda sad they didnt really do anything to increase ap's dps
just added slows and crap to make them better in pvp.i guess it could be worse though,they have a gap closer in pvp.and scoundrel/operative dont.which would of been my next choice if i didnt like playing a powertech(which they look fun)
If you can get PFT to hit, AP damage is just fine. 1.2 is making this much, much easier which is a huge DPS increase.
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I'm still new to PT, so I'm not raising this to suggest that line of thought is wrong, but as a curiosity...
* ICP gives 3% extra health for 3 points, and you say it's 'a complete waste'.
* That build also has 2 points in power armor, which reduces all damage taken by 2%
* Same goes for Ion Screen - 2 points for 2% damage reduction..
Each of those talents effectively does the same thing per point, surely? So.. why is one a 'complete waste', while the others don't warrant a comment?
Less damage incoming means less damage to heal, so I can see that overall mitigation has that benefit over raw hitpoints, but otherwise there's really very little difference, surely? Is that difference alone worth writing a larger hitpoint pool off entirely?
The 2% damage reduction is actually more than 2% because you already have 45-48% from armor. It will actually reduce incoming damage by almost twice that amount since you're taking 50% of the full damage instead of 52% a decrease of 2/52X100= 3.8%.
Seeing that the 2% DR is more than 3% HP AND it is more useful when being healed and it only costs 2 points instead of 3 you can see why it is better.
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Go here for the answers you need!
Powertechs are one of the best PvP classes in the game and the PT forum is filled with lots of tip and builds to help you out!
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The nerf to camouflage is going to hurt them a lot and overall their best spec (annihilation) is getting a nerf.
I don't think people realize this at all though and are flocking to them anyway since someone said they were getting buffed when the buffs aren't in the tree that is already strong.
The real buffs are Snipers/GS (healing debuff FTW), Guardians/juggs (lots of small improvements) and Tactics/AP spec VGs/PTs (significant buffs).
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Okay let's get 1 or two more possible names than I will toss up a poll on both the Vanguard (they love us there, poor Karandor, has some work to do with them) and over here on the PT forums.
We could also split the name one for Vanguard and one for PT. Though that might get confusing haha! Who can tell I am pumped about 1.2!!!!!!
Heh, the VG forum is a really slow moving forum compared to this one and the spec discussion is pretty non-existent from the PoV of pure optimization of builds.
The guys who play tactics over there haven't really thought things through that much.
In other news I broke 600k in a Voidstar today. AoE destruction. I think I will break 700k after the patch if the mortar volley and sticky grenade bonus from PG doesn't get fixed in 1.2. People may start asking for it to be fixed once I'm through optimizing my play style.
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It makes it similar to the Sentinel / Marauder DoTs. Condensing the damage makes it significantly more useful in PvP situations. This would increase the DoT damage tick to 250% of current. PvE, this would be an irrelevant change.
This would be excellent. Now if the HiB/RS proc would make it a crit AND refesh the Gut/RB DoT/snare we would be getting to a good place.
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in assault i can crit upto 5200 with hib, thats the max i've seen on a squishy lowbie. in tactics u lose 9% damage from burning, 30% crit damage, 30% armor pen.
back to the main topic, i dont pve with tactics as dps i ot as tactics. i'm mostly a pvper and as such i cannot give up hib.
its plain to see that most of you are dead set in your opinion of hib for tactics. all i can say is that from personal experience of owning pretty much anything cept full heal spec healers (cuz my burst isnt high enough as tactics) hib cannot be discarded.
*DISCLAIMER* if this whole thread was about tactics pve damage rotations and removing hib from that then i withdraw all my arguments. i have no experience doing ops/hm fp as tactics dps, i dps solely in assault.
My Current tactics pvp build:
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMGZMsrrobfkds.1 (using ion cell)
The fact that you're using ion cell shows that you aren't playing the same spec as what we're talking about. Removing Gut and HiB would still benefit you though with faster stacks of PG for much higher DPS.
8 points of a build with maximised HiB can be moved into other talents. That's a a lot of talent points for a crit on a 15s CD.
That build has terrible mobility and terrible ammo problems. You'd be much better off playing an Ironfist spec.
A full tatics spec kills anything but a healer with guard and taunt or lots of cross healing. If you manage to get the healers in one area (happens all the time on voidstar) you can destroy them.
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We get our combat logs thursday so we'll be able to see where different specs and rotations stand. I'm so excited.
I really think that removing RB and RS from a rotation will win out in PvE and PvP both. If it doesn't I will be surprised.
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Okay after talking with Mapex and seeing his rotation. I have realized some errors in the Non-RB/RS build (It really needs a better name).
Pre 1.2 rotation:
ED/Sticky - Immolate/Fire Pulse - Flame Burst/Ion Pulse x3 - Rocket Punch/Stockstrike - FB/IP x 2 - PFT/PG
You can then weave in the free RP/SS anywhere within the FB/IP spam as long as it's not at 5 stacks.
Honestly Mapex, I don't see how you using RB/Gut and RS/HiB doesn't increase your heat worse than the non-RS/RB build.
Name it the Gordon Clark after Gordon Haddon Clark born august 31 1902.
Gordon Haddon Clark (August 31, 1902 – April 9, 1985) was an American philosopher and Calvinist theologian. He was a primary advocate for the idea of presuppositional apologetics and was chairman of the Philosophy Department at Butler University for 28 years. He was an expert in pre-Socratic and ancient philosophy and was noted for his rigor in defending propositional revelation against all forms of empiricism and rationalism, in arguing that all truth is propositional and in applying the laws of logic. His theory of knowledge is sometimes called scripturalism.
I find it fitting, others may not.
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The slow is definitely worth the 4 extra points. A lot of times you don't get kills is because the enemy runs away from you, retreating behind his friends. Also, since the other melee classes have better defensive CDs, you will need to kite them a little bit in order to outlast them and RB helps a great deal with that.
@TheOpf
Indeed; the FBx5 spam makes you overheat easily. That's why Flame Barrage is so important and a good rotation where you use RP after Immolate and after FB spam allows you to buy some time before you unleash your Flame Thrower.
To reiterate for those who haven't seen me post it:
ED -> Immolate -> RB -> RP (Heat-free) -> RS (only if CG procs) -> FBx5 -> RP (83% chance it will be Heat-free) -> Flame Thrower (5 stacks)
In 1.2 this changes to:
ED -> Immolate -> RB -> RP (Heat-free) -> RS (68% chance CG procs before next RP) -> FBx4 -> RP (76% chance it will be Heat-free) -> Flame Thrower (5 stacks) -> RS (90% chance CG procs after 2x RP and full RB initial + ticks)
Of course, this is a priority rotation which resolves around stacking up Flame Thrower ASAP, so Rocket Punch and Immolate will have to wait if you are sitting on 5 stacks of PFT.
@Coramac
Everything you said, exactly.
I honestly don't have trouble with runners. 10m range and 15% increased move-speed plus HtL + grapple + other CC is enough tools for me I find. If people run into their team I blast down the AE pain.
I still say using gut/RB and HiB/RS is a waste and still will be after the patch. Heck after the patch PG/PFT is going to be so much better that it's even more of a waste of GCD.
The problem isn't just the 4 points, it's that I need another 4 to make those 4 worth it (ie make RS/HiB able to do decent damage) as well as 5% bonus accuracy to make the damage even reliable. I have the accuracy right now (to lazy to swap mods before patch, just wearing mostly champ with swapped mods instead of BM) but won't after the patch.
You only need to put 2 points towards HiB and gut at all in a tactics build. 1 point in tier 1 to open up the next tier and 1 point in Gut to give you a DoT for stealthers. To make HiB worth using you need to spend another 8 points.
Right now on a Vanguard (since we get the bonus damage on sticky grenade and mortar volley, it is ridiculous) the best way to play tactics is 5X ion pulse, sticky, mortar volley, pulse cannon, fire pulse, stockstrike. Sticky + MV + PC can hit 20k AE if everything crits. Generally you'll do 15k+ if you pop relic + adrenal + battle awareness. This wins games of voidstar brutally and totally. Especially when combined with a focus spec guardian that I play with regularly.
There is no time for Gut and HiB at all. Need those stacks. Fire Pulse and SS get used because they are cheap and high damage for good burst on anyone who survives the AE.
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Yea, someone in the other thread was saying HIB crit harder than Fire Pulse in Tactics. It was at least an easy way to figure out who to ignore on that thread.
Yeah, everyone who has tried the no-HiB/RS build has reported either no loss in performance or a net gain.
I'm not even sure I'll grab the snare on gut in 1.2 since it will require a bunch of points in stuff I don't want.
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I would just like to thank the point out to the Non RS build. I mean in 1.2 I'll have to figure out where to get 4 points so I get the slow on RB, but leaving RS out and RB out except on stealthers is awesome.
My FB crits for 3k+, carbonize 3 and PFT critting for 2.8 1.6 normal is great and that's not even popping relics. Normally can't take on 3v1, i'll kill 1 or 2 but the 3rd will get me. Last night did it 4 times leaving RS/RB out. PFT all 3 kills 1-2 and severierly brings down the 3rd.
Honestly a 30% slow probably still isn't worth the 4+ points. The more I play non-RS spec the less I want to have to spend any points there.
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If you don't do well as a DPS Powertech you are very bad at this game.....
Really, really, bad.
Best PvP DPS in the game does not need more survivability.
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I don't understand why your HIBs are crit'ing for so little. I consider my HIB to be light, and I crit for no less than 35-3600 in PvE. I've been up to 4100, and that is still light compared to some of the other troopers I've talked to.
They don't hit that hard as tactics. 30% less armor pen and 30% less crit damage than assault.
If you have it hit that hard as tactics it's on someone with very bad gear.
Also, I'm talking PvP not PvE. I have no idea how hard it hits in PvE.
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what?
you're tryn to say that PG stacks are better than hib? people can run out of pulse cannon, you can get stunned while using or knocked back or pushed. you cant stop hib with a kb or a push.
pulse cannon is also very situational, hib is 30m range instant cast.
you can try to rationalize yourself but i play tactics, i own hard with it, hib cannot be given up, its just not a main attack.
i'd love to show you the error of your ways, but as that is not possible you just need to take my word for it, HIB = must use even for tactics.
I run tatics without HiB right now and have not had any drop in my effectiveness. A crit HiB doesn't even hit that hard. 2.5-3k is barely more (300-500) than an ion pulse crit and it costs 6+ talent points and can only happen MAX every 15s and the chances of that are around 50% if you aren't spamming gut. Gut hits for terrible damage. For a max damage burst rotation gut hurts you more than HiB helps you.
Try playing without HiB at all and you will not notice a difference in your killing power. 9% aim or any of the defense/utility you give up to get it are worth more.
Also right now Mortar Volley and Sticky Grenade also get a damage bonus from stacks which makes it even more advantageous to get stacks as fast as possible. With a 30s CD on HtL, a 35 second CD on cryo grenade and a 45s CD on neural surge you should not have a problem landing a good pulse cannon.
HiB is a trap in tactics builds. It looks sexy but when you do the math on burst with gut included and look at the severe talent point cost vs. the 15s CD and the small chance to even get the guaranteed crit within that window, unless you gimp damage with gut spam, it just doesn't make sense to keep it in the build. I'll take 9% aim, 10s less CD on cryo grenade and my ion pulse targets doing 4% less damage over a crit HiB every 15s any day of the week.
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No one has stunned you, ran away to get distance, and started unloading on you? No one has waited for your HO to wear off before knocking you away and rooting you? It's those situations (and they will be common once people catch on) and more where that crit-RS will be extra handy.
I don't deny that the rotation can use some cleaning up - spamming FB 5 times is ridiculous and 4 times isn't that much better - but I wouldn't discount the power of a free ranged crit attack every 15 seconds, especially as it bypasses certain mechanics such as the Shadow/Assassin's cooldown that grants 100% immunity to Tech/Force attacks.
Except that the immunity cleanses all DoTs and you won't be able to use RS anyway unless you hit it just before he pops his immunity. Not too mention there are 5 classes that have a defensive CD to be almost immune to RS (assassin, marauder, jugg, sniper, operative) vs the single class that can be immune to tech. On the assassin marauder and jugg those also last 12s vs the max 5s tech immunity on an assassin.
A crit FB hits almost as hard as a crit RS. RS also requires you to put RB into your rotation. Right now you won't have a crit RS every 15s unless you spam RB which is idiotic. The 3 points in 9% aim will increase your damage more than the 6 points put towards RS.
I removed RS and have seen no decrease in my killing power.
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you cannot give up hib, as tactics it is just not a main ability. using hib right after fire pulse = nice burst. if you think removing it gives u a dps boost you're crazy.
It actually lowers your DPS because it requires gut and you lose 2 stacks of PG. Add in the fact that PG stacks are also currently increasing damage on Mortar volley and sticky grenade and it is a no brainer that you want to build stacks ASAP. A crit HiB barely hits harder than a crit ion pulse and takes 6 talent points. The chances of having a guaranteed crit every 15s if you aren't spamming gut (why the hell would you?) are very bad.
I've removed it completely from my talent build and game-play and have no noticeable drop in killing power or DPS, if anything it's better because I have 5 stacks faster and more often.
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This thread is hillarious.
QFT
I love people playing an OP spec saying how amazing they are at PvP.
I played pyro (well assault, I have a VG) enough to know how OP it is compared to anything else in the game right now. Heck, I didn't even have the eliminator set and it was easy-mode.
If you think marauders are anywhere close to your damage as pyro then you suck at playing pyro. If you think you're special because you can 1v2 as pyro, you're not, a monkey can 1v2 and win as pyro. Pyro damage isn't quite pre-nerf operative but with good RNG it's better because you can down an infinite amount of targets without needing stealth.
Even with the 6s CD being added I still think it will out-perform most other DPS specs in the game in PvP.
Gunslingers and snipers are just about the only think that has any chance against the spec except you can just LoS them or stun them if they don't have their CC immunity up.
Funny thing is AP/Tactics stomps snipers.....
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He's trying to re-live the days when geared 50s could farm lvl 10s... And people complain about gear imbalances now lol.
^^ this X 10
I think there's going to be a leaver debuff in 1.2 so that may stop him.
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I think he is more concerned about people calling it OP. 70 percent slow on the most powerful attack PFT is going to be very nice. 6 seconds of total burn is close to 12k health gone. It's going to be fun.
The first tick happens instantly as well apparently....
Gonna be fun times.
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If you abuse the 5 stacks mortar volley and sticky grenade the spec is pretty insane now. Can just blow up groups with those 2 skills and follow up with 5 stack pulse cannon.
It is absolutely stupid AE damage.
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Does using those abilities remove the stacks? Or is that part still tied to flame thrower? (Also does the Snare component/uninterruptable carry over also?)
It does not remove stacks, you can sticky, mortar volley and then full stack Pulse Cannon.
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Or you can have it all: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMZrsMrRrfkbsZb.1
You lose 9% Aim but you gain all the stuff you need otherwise. In 1.2 this gets fudged a bit because you will now want to spec 1 point for Kolto Vents (which becomes the RB slow), but until then this is the only spec I bother running for AP because I need those shorter cooldowns and the fairly reliable Rail Shot crit.
9% aim is better than a crit RS every 15s.
Try playing without it, you won't miss it at all.
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A ranged team that knows how to focus fire and spread out will destroy a melee train.
All you need to beat a melee train is AoE, guard and taunt.
You can't AE taunt a spread out ranged team but you can completely gimp the DPS of an entire melee train with little to no effort.
Basically people need to Learn to Play.
AP vs. Pyro after 1.2
in Vanguard / Powertech
Posted
Marauders that give PTs problems, annihilation specifically, did get some small nerfs. Camouflage got nerfed to 50% DR (from 100%) for that spec which is HUGE for dueling them.
AP is much, much better than people give it credit for, after the patch it is going to be extremely nasty. I can beat most maras and tanksins as it is right now with good play as AP. After that patch I should still be able to beat them.