I heard a team of stunlocking operatives might be climbin in yo windows. So hide yo kids, hide yo wife, and hide yo husband cause they unsubbing everyone out here.

New solution to bad players in group finder! Just call a team of stunlocking operatives and once they attack the rest of the group they all unsub. Easy fix!

Except for the teams of stunlocking operatives making people unsub. BW already pandered to some QQ by nerfing the crap outta Operative due to such a concept.

As with all things, when the masses get at it if it requires any level of intelligence they will fail at it. Like letting a pack of howler monkeys into a meticulously set up lab space with intricate puzzles. They COULD try to solve the puzzles to get the food, or just crap on everything and make alot of noise. Guess which thing the majority of MMO players do.

Have you ever herded cats? Think of that. For the next few weeks expect alot of pain and hardship as people that never set foot into those now flood in.

This isn't a hard concept since I don't know why you seem to think it is fine and dandy as is. WoW instituted a 'cannot roll need on items you can't effectivly use' for a reason, because there ARE people out there (a large number actually) who will roll need even if they have exactly ZERO use for an item, just cause they can. Light armor should only be available as a Need roll to LIGHT armor wearers. Same with medium, same with heavy. Tokens for gear should be only Need for the classes that are listed. It is simple enough to go "hey STR item, only needable by STR classes" and the like. All loot still has greed button. Believing that karma and 'it will come back at them' is fine and dandy, but that doesn't make loot magically appear back to someone who actually could have used it.

I was going to login tonight for some dailies, but at the login screen a team of stunlocking operatives attacked and I had to unsub! I WANTED TO KILL TORVIX YOU BUMS!

Self healing shouldn't be a reason to remove a portion or most of any class DPS unless the healing literally makes them fully hybridized. If Operatives were pulling out like 1/3 to 1/2 the healing TO THE WHOLE GROUP of a full heal spec or something WHILE producing moderate DPS then we could have a discussion. However as the healing is nowhere near that level then it is silly to reduce the dps based off simple self survival ability. Staying alive doesn't matter much if you don't beat enrage timers due to a class's flat lower DPS by virtue of staying alive.

I was about to unsub since I saw the team of stunlocking operatives coming, but luckily I made one unsub first and got away before I got stunlocked and unsubbed. So of course I'm still play-DANGIT. I just got stunlocked. UNSUBBED!

Don't need to unionize for that, I'd be burning all my mats just to keep myself using my own stims. Since as we know the persist through death stims aint cheap and having to have a constant supply for adrenals and such too. I'd be burning all my materials for myself, no selling to anyone.

NO! Reusables should NOT go away. They are a nice perk in that you aren't burning materials, not game breaking via more stats or shifting things around. The presence of the reusable already ensures you always have a buff of some sort that someone else may not have, as such getting a perk that boosts it more would just mean you use more materials and get an even larger bonus. Thereby amplifying the so called "OP" calls and also making the market for stims and such rougher because biochems will be using the materials increasingly for their own use and not selling the stims to others. More powerful effects aren't what we need when that does not really address the materials costs or the market issues we face already.

Umm, all the stims/adrenals that can be actually consumed AFAIK are boe and don't require biochem...unless i'm mistaken since its late.

In the similar vein if we are comparing wow they eventually added many things to give each a unique little perk. Some had unique enchants that were cheaper and better for certain slots, or bonus sockets, etc. This was then a constant "above and beyond" bonus similar to what the current infinite stim is for Biochem. The weird thing is that the other crew skills are generally lacking anything for themselves that is truely "above and beyond" anything else found.

Lots of sadness and reverse engineering greens to blues and blues to epics.

Exactly. Hence my ideas for making all the skills MUCH more marketable, making all the gear slightly better then the equivalents found in the world (not hugely but slightly) and even making the mod peices better for cyber, it would make ALL of the skills highly marketable and drive the economy toward more player action. It would also have people using the GTN more heavily and thus more sales for Biochems as a whole.

I don't believe any reusable should be outside biochemists themselves. Even charged, degradation, anything. How many games handled things just fine with a potion making mechanic that didn't have 'charges' per use of it? And as always this takes more a view of just Biochem needing changed. Even with these changes people would still say Biochem is overpowered and too good. There NEEDS to be more sweeping changes to ALL tradeskills to make EVERY SINGLE ONE attractive. I posted this before but it is more the focus needed right now instead of a 1 skill focus. 1) Biochem keeps their reusables, usable ONLY with biochem skill. 2) Adrenals/Stims can produce a RE discovered schematic that produces 5 of the green item for each craft, these are special named and via RE can produce the blue version that gives 5 per craft. (this addresses the issue of material costs to stim/adrenal production and availability, this also LOWERS THE IMPACT THE REUSABLE HAS VS OTHER CRAFTS since it is easier to procure them for everyone.) 3) Synth, Armor, Arms. All can produce an orange piece (or pieces, like a chest/pants or bracers/boots or whatever) of armor/weapon that BASE (without any mods) has stats base without any mods. Something respectable but not game breaking (i don't know like 50 tech power and maybe like +XX to the primary stat and some endurance) just something that would set the armor piece above and beyond anything you'd be finding and would ALWAYS be better, and you could even remod as you get drops from Ops and such perhaps. Obviously they would REQUIRE the skill to wear. Maybe have several types too, different level tiers or styles for looks purposes (and make some that have diff looks but no special stat boosts just open modable for people to vary their appearance even more, looks matter to people in MMO and would open up a market for these skills even more.) 4) Cybertech: Grenade expansion maybe. Lower cooldown and perhaps have them apply various debuffs or effects that could be beneficial and stack with others. Like say a 5% damage reduction effect, or boost to fire, or bleeds, or other things. Give them some VARIETY and make the cybertech grenades a boon to people who have a cybertech along. (possibly also make them RE into a schematic that is usable by others too, but lower effect OR the cybertech can get reusable as well, but others can use similar versions, see #2 of Biochem for similarities that are possible.) 5) Artificer give them some unique color crystals (a more variety, comon bioware work that art department!) and give them an arti only augment that is a hop skip and jump better then anything outside Ops (maybe even have a schematic in Ops that is arti only and once again better then any Ops drops too). Or a lightsaber build perhaps that follows the same idea as the #3 ideas, where the basic stats before any mods have bonuses and such that are always going to make THAT item better then any other modded or found item (with the level/content equivalent mods in the crafted of course). 6) Cybertech and Artificer get a slight boost to the stats of all their augments/enhancements/armoring/etc. Not massive but like 1-2 stat points added to each tier's stuff, with higher tiers getting 4-5 and maybe like a +10 or 15 area at the highest. Sets it apart from what you find from commendations. 7) Back to Synth, Armor, Arms. Give them like the #6 or something for even the BOE gear, nothing huge on them, just the 1-3 area and such, but again. Opens the market for their goods GREATLY. Quest gear doesn't disappear but everyone who wants to full on minmax will flock to crafters. Doesn't mean you can do just as well with the quested stuff and drops for equiv level but the crafter has the edge (maybe only for Superior quality on this stuff) Such changes like this would open markets for every tradeskill and make people not view only one as "better" then the others since each would have its own little perks and marketable aspects. It also in a way passively would help slicers/gathering types since materials market would surge heavily with the demand.

The number of charges bi might work pretty well really, although that is almost similar to just making more overall. I still disagree with giving infinite reusable to everyone however. As for the epic mods/armor I'm somewhere between, the problem with epic armor and weapons is they HAVE to be replaceable with Operations level stuff, be they crafted or not. This means that you may well be on par with someone else who didn't spend forever to craft it, and it is a reality in the MMO world where the gear treadmill will always be there. It is also where the anger about the reusable adrenals is coming from. That being a non-gear thing means it benefits the person above and beyond the gear for their crafting, as opposed to the armor or weapon eventually being replaced. I suggested modable stuff with base boosts for that reason in my rant, since then it could be modded to always remain current/better then what everyone else from say a given Op has if you have the similarly item level mods in it. That way yes a biochem has their infinite stim/adrenal/whatever but you have higher stats on your gear permanently, which helps bring the issues a bit more in line with the different aspect of gear and buffs comparatively.

You may have yet more RE to do, since I'm pretty sure theres a whole fragging SLEW of the epic grade stuff to RE with like every stack tacked on just to make you want to strangle a puppy.

I find some of these posts absolutely insane. Someone earlier said it best, Bioware probably will take the lazy route and just nerf it into oblivion, likely because most of the playerbase is OBVIOUSLY too lazy to come up with anything besides nerfing. So many posts here are just that "NERF THIS IT IS OP! NERF THAT THERE IS NO WAY TO COMPARE! NERF THEM THEY CAN SELL STUFF!" Here, since it seems like there is a lack of creativity and use of thought. How to Address the "OP" calls. 1) Biochem keeps their reusables, usable ONLY with biochem skill. 2) Adrenals/Stims can produce a RE discovered schematic that produces 5 of the green item for each craft, these are special named and via RE can produce the blue version that gives 5 per craft. (this addresses the issue of material costs to stim/adrenal production and availability, this also LOWERS THE IMPACT THE REUSABLE HAS VS OTHER CRAFTS since it is easier to procure them for everyone.) 3) Synth, Armor, Arms. All can produce an orange piece (or pieces, like a chest/pants or bracers/boots or whatever) of armor/weapon that BASE (without any mods) has stats base without any mods. Something respectable but not game breaking (i don't know like 50 tech power and maybe like +XX to the primary stat and some endurance) just something that would set the armor piece above and beyond anything you'd be finding and would ALWAYS be better, and you could even remod as you get drops from Ops and such perhaps. Obviously they would REQUIRE the skill to wear. Maybe have several types too, different level tiers or styles for looks purposes (and make some that have diff looks but no special stat boosts just open modable for people to vary their appearance even more, looks matter to people in MMO and would open up a market for these skills even more.) 4) Cybertech: Grenade expansion maybe. Lower cooldown and perhaps have them apply various debuffs or effects that could be beneficial and stack with others. Like say a 5% damage reduction effect, or boost to fire, or bleeds, or other things. Give them some VARIETY and make the cybertech grenades a boon to people who have a cybertech along. (possibly also make them RE into a schematic that is usable by others too, but lower effect OR the cybertech can get reusable as well, but others can use similar versions, see #2 of Biochem for similarities that are possible.) 5) Artificer give them some unique color crystals (a more variety, comon bioware work that art department!) and give them an arti only augment that is a hop skip and jump better then anything outside Ops (maybe even have a schematic in Ops that is arti only and once again better then any Ops drops too). Or a lightsaber build perhaps that follows the same idea as the #3 ideas, where the basic stats before any mods have bonuses and such that are always going to make THAT item better then any other modded or found item (with the level/content equivalent mods in the crafted of course). 6) Cybertech and Artificer get a slight boost to the stats of all their augments/enhancements/armoring/etc. Not massive but like 1-2 stat points added to each tier's stuff, with higher tiers getting 4-5 and maybe like a +10 or 15 area at the highest. Sets it apart from what you find from commendations. 7) Back to Synth, Armor, Arms. Give them like the #6 or something for even the BOE gear, nothing huge on them, just the 1-3 area and such, but again. Opens the market for their goods GREATLY. Quest gear doesn't disappear but everyone who wants to full on minmax will flock to crafters. Doesn't mean you can do just as well with the quested stuff and drops for equiv level but the crafter has the edge (maybe only for Superior quality on this stuff) Those are just ideas but compared to some of the 'Omg nerf the OP thing" people it is a hell of alot more constructive in trying to deal with the issues then trying to just tear down a crew skill and instead I'm (and a few others) are looking to build the others up a bit more too. The ideas I'm throwing out may not work but they are a step to try to address, come up with ideas to bolster the other skills, not just rip down one you see as better. Crew skills should be solid for ANY of them, not just junk across the board. Also those ideas would give Cybertech more of a market and definately energize the market a bit more on the mods side too since more modable gear that people would be crafting for themselves. And with #6 it would encourage people to buy the crafted stuff, while for your quick fix commendations would still be there till you find a crafter to make the better stuff. Would also energize the materials markets more to produce and sell more of the stuff with increased crafter demand (which would benefit 2 gathering/slicing users). We're the community, lets brainstorm and work to come up with ways to make things more enjoyable for all of us, not just dump on a skill and grumble that they are all worthless afterwards.

Gotta remember on the internet Poe's Law comes into play often if you try to use sarcasm =p ESPECIALLY on these forums. Even the most insane and unreasonable statement could very well be 100% serious from some of the people around here. Right, I think really something to make them more ubiquitous would make the issue of reusable less troublesome. (the 1 craft nets 5 for example) Reusable really is more the Biochemist themself and I think really it is a good bonus for the biochem and should stay JUST for the biochem. The other tradeskills NEED their own things that set them apart though and are a benefit above just the norm.

Right I think Arti could stand to make like a unique color crystal or something that also gives stats as an augment above what you can find in the world (barring Operations of course but there should be schematics in those that are equivalent and not bound to the arti) or even have artis able to make a saber that like the armstech weapons idea has base stats a solid cut above what everything has then can be boosted MORE through the things added to it.

Once again, why cut down a tradeskill instead of trying to work out and suggest things to bring others UP to a similar level or all above just the norm?

IMO reusables should be restricted to Biochem still but some changes to the non-reusables could stand to be done. Being made in multiples that someone suggested is an EXCELLENT idea to make them more accessable (ie: 1 craft of the adrenal makes 3-4 or more...more supply, lower cost, and demand remains constant or increases as they are easy to get.) this also makes the reusable one less "OMG AMAZING" because now they are much more ubiquitous and the reusable one is just a materials saving for the biochem and isn't as HUGE a difference from the rest of the populace. The other thing that needs done is instead of all this screaming and gnashing of teeth is boosting and improvement of the OTHER crew skills. Give armortechs like a special armoring or something or even an orange modable armor that grants +X to all stats baseline. Requires armortech and is bound to the player. Make it a respectable bonus that way armortechs have a unique and definite benefit to their crew skill choice. (just an idea might be some others) Similar with armstech, a barrel or gun that is modable and have base stats BEFORE anything is added that are boosted more then anything of equiv level. Artificer could have an augment that is a cut above and beyond maybe a unique color too that only artificer could access. Cybertech could have a few things, although giving them the mod pieces that would be a cut better then what is found would be perfect I'd think for business and the tradeskill. I'm always so confused about the whole "NERF THIS NERF THIS IT IS SO MUCH BETTER!" and not "Lets try to improve the other things to be equal." It feels like the "My house is not as good as my neighbor, I need to find a way to get his house damaged to be as bad as mine."

Darned kids got it too good, I remember just to get a level having to spend 10+ hours with a group at a single spawn spot farming the same mobs the tank pulled to us! Ah EQ1....frenzy group list anyone?

So you blow through content quickly and now you gnash teeth about having nothing to do? Sometimes I wonder how any players that do that expect a developer to please them? Put out 50 INCREDIBLY difficult low quality end game contents? No developer can hope to satisfy the top 1% (odd how that statement works) of gamers who power through ALL content as hard as they possibly can, it simply is not possible. Even ranked pvp and such isn't going to satisfy them as they will group and grind and power through THAT as well. The ONLY way to slow them is artificial gating and timed lockouts. Hell if you could have no lockouts of any sort for any content you'd probably be posting this thread within the first 2-3 weeks of release and not just now. Unless the power gamer groups play multiple games at once they will NEVER EVER EVER EVER be satisfied with the amount of content given by a developer simply due to the fact it takes FAR longer to develop the content then it will ever take for a player to beat it. Take a break, alt up, or play another game while waiting for content. You'll be back when they finally release new content (much to you and everyone else in that category of gamer culture's annoyance at how long it took) and then beat it in 1/50th the time it took to develop/test it. Then you or another person in that culture will post the exact same thread.