Propane
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Posts posted by Propane
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So go play those games. Your choice.
And before you make the argument about driving players away, the flipside is also true. I was a Rift sub for many years and left when they announced FTP as in my opinion they did not offer enough extra to subs. And I wasn't alone.
What I didn't do was go on the forum and QQ.
It's always a balance. Find a game where the balance suits you. Simples.
And I was with SWTOR, I paid for the game on release - after being a tester for almost a full year - and when they went free what did I get? A Premium member ship - which anyone can get by paying 5 dollars on the Cartel Market.
But at least I got a founders title! That can only be used if I pay for it.
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That would be pay to be on-par with the others that are paying.
By your definition, any game with a subscription or even any game that you have to purchase (which is most games in general) are pay-to-win because you have to pay to get access to the good stuff (or any stuff)
No my logic, which I have posted about 4 times, is "Payments - in a free to play game - should only be used to broaden the gaming experience without affecting the core gameplay itself."
You know in free games like Dota, LoL, TF2, Tera, Rift, Aion. While the last three may have ways to level up faster, F2Pers can still play with the same experience as a payer.
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So what, the ability to write in the forum is now p2w as well?
Yes it is, it is restrictive to those who buy - to keep those dirty F2Pers from criticizing BioEAware's system.
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I know a lot of f2p players who would disagree with these quotes
I don't know where this mentallity comes from, that people who do not pay for something should get the same thing as the ones who do.
Tell them to post on this forum! Oh wait...
This mentality* comes from games where you can get the same gameplay experience from those who pay and those who choose not to.
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But you know - when you leave the swtor forums, everyone agrees on this pay to win situation because everyone here is subscribed and they don't really have to care about the free players.
http://news.mmosite.com/content/2013-01-31/why_swtors_f2p_model_needs_help_1.shtml
http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/10/17/star-wars-the-old-republic-f2p-restrictions-detailed
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1249751-Star-Wars-The-Old-Republic-F2P-worth-it
"As far as F2P games go it is the worst I have ever personally seen. Bioware/Swtor slaps so many arbitrary restrictions on you its ridiculous."
"I tried it again as a preferred player but it just felt too restrictive and had the feeling that everything in the game was an ad trying to get met o buy cartel coins for every little upgrade or ability so I stopped after about 30 minutes."
"I'd say SWTOR's F2P status is too restrictive for me to enjoy the game."
Thanks for getting me 20+ pages of response of some agreeing and some trying to defend the perfectness of SWTOR f2p.
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It's also not this game.
http://www.swtor.com/free/features
Scroll down to item equipping and highlight over the free to play bubble. Isn't that hard to read.
"Cannot equip most purple items unless an authorization is purchased in CARTEL store."
So basically if you didn't under stand that. You gotta pay to be able to use the best armors in the game.
At higher levels, you need these purple items with expertise to be able to do some sort of help in PvP. If you don't you will be loosing.
But because this is a glorified demo, the real parts that make up a MMO - PvP, Raids, Operations, - are limited to a number so they won't really be needing them will they?
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Then the business itself evolves until every company is like EA. Mass effect having a good ending? lol nope. Call of duty needs innovation? lol nope. Just a few months ago i watched four of my favorite IP's die in front of me, Halo, GoW, Borderlands, and AC. I have 0 reason to buy a console now.
And finally its partly the reason why the Xbox One came to fruition. Because casuals bought the Wii during its hype, it was a flash in the pan, lucky success and every console tried to copy it afterwards, failing.
So continue buying up fast food gaming. Watch day one dlc's and pay to win become the norm. (As if its not already right now).
You can't argue with anyone here, people always gunna find something to make sure their 100% flawless EA system stays in place.
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http://www.riftgame.com/en/store/#patron
$15 a month for "patron" status. Looks like a subscription to me.
Okay, so the reason TOR is P2W is only because of the armor restriction now?
That alone is pay to win. PAYING to be able to USE THE BEST ARMOR in the game.
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A long time ago in a Galaxy far far away, I had the expectation that SWTOR would not allow players to "pay to win".
When Free to Play was announced, I was fine with the idea. Afterall, allowing new players to experience the storyline of SWTOR might very well hook them on the game and increase subscriptions. The Cartel Market never worried me because I had seen similar ideas in other subscription MMOs, and buying from the online cash only store never affected your game play.
What I didn't expect was the ability purchase items on the cash only store that could be sold on the GTN. In some games, even that would not have had as big an impact as in SWTOR, because in those other games there's an extremely limited amount of gear that is useful in end game content that can be purchased for in game currency.
In SWTOR, PVE content is completed using gear that can be purchased, in its entirety, from crafters selling on the GTN. What about the set bonus? Well, in other games with an armor set bonus, this would be a problem. In SWTOR, you are given commendations enough to purchase a complete set of Tionese gear at level 50, all of which can be upgraded to the latest standard of gear while maintaining the set bonus. Or you could get the same from running a week's worth of flashpoints and operations.
To summarize, in game currency is now sufficient to purchase the highest tier of gear for all PVE content. Since you can sell Cartel Market items for outlandish sums on the GTN, it is very easy for someone to turn real money into in game currency and then into in game items that improve their performance.
This is, of course, what is meant by Pay to Win. The only thing worse, and less subtle than the route Bioware has chosen to follow, would be to include the highest tier mods in the armor they sell on the Cartel Market. Bioware has chosen the smarter route, which is to allow players to handle the exchange themselves, thus avoiding the immediate ire of everyone who hates pay to win.
Bioware understands very well that if they were to make the cash shop items Bind on Pickup, rather than Bind on Equip, their revenue might drop. A significant portion of the purchases made on the Cartel Market go straight to the GTN, and that would no longer be possible. That said, as a counter argument, even more real money purchases might arise, because players in the game wouldn't be able to spend their in game credits to purchase them, and might actually want a lot of what is being offered, and therefore be forced to pay real money for it.
The Pay to Win practice pushes away players who play for the love of the game. It is especially disheartening when you see introductions to the GTN like the new speeder with protection against falling off that exceeds speeder piloting III. Only an incredibly small portion of the SWOTR population can receive a mount with a similar ability by playing the game (the NiM Denova Tank Mount), and even that is a matter of luck, since it is a rare drop.
As it now stands, you can purchase everything used for space content and PVE content using either directly or indirectly purchased goods. Only PVP gear is sacred at this point in time (other than the expertise crystal), and it would not surprise me to see the introduction of a Cartel Market item that allowed players to get around the valor limitation as well.
Furthermore, Cartel Market items tread on the corpse of Legacy, allowing players to purchase Legacy only unlocks using cartel coins instead of credits. I wouldn't mind this particularly if it wasn't for the fact that in doing so they also eliminated the requirement of Legacy Level to use these perks, and have not bothered to introduce any Legacy Level perks over level 25. Nor have they kept any of the Legacy level perks sacrosanct to Legacy. If you have money, rather than time, you can simply purchase them with cash and ignore the effort level normally required to earn such rewards.
This wholesale approach to this game via the Cartel Market has left a bitter taste in my mouth. I'm not ditching my subscription just yet. I've enjoyed previous Bioware games, and respect the quality they normally bring to the table. However, I am becoming more and more certain that the long time players, those who would pay a subscription for 10 years straight in return for quality, are not the players Bioware is currently catering to.
I could go on to list bug fixes left undone since launch, UI features that are so basic that they should never have left Beta without them, etc, but in reality, my chief complaint is the Cartel Market. I'm not interested in Pay to Win. The rest of the stuff, even a ready check, I can improvise around. I'm having difficulty coming to terms with a subscription game where you can simply buy your gear with real money.
What do you think?
Yuppity yup yup.
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They minus as well as made the F2P single player and given the MMO parts as a demo, seeing how ALL the parts that make a MMO a MMO are all on a limit.
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Payments should only be used to broaden the gaming experience without affecting the core gameplay itself.
Thank you guys for getting me to a 22 page post with a 7 word thread.
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So based on your examples of why TOR is P2W, let's look at some of the other freemium MMOs you mentioned in this thread:
LOTRO is P2W because F2P players have a 2 gold limit, they only get a couple of trait slots, and cannot earn rest XP.
Rift is P2W because subscribers get 15% more currency and daily XP/reputation boosts.
Tera is P2W because subscribers get daily XP, gold, and reputation boosts.
Aion is P2W because F2P players can only gather/extract a limited number of times each day, and their instance cooldowns are much longer.
Subscribers will always get benefits that F2P players don't get; otherwise there would be no point in subscribing. Now you can argue that TOR has more restrictions than other games (and I would actually agree with you on that), but having restrictions doesn't make it P2W. Otherwise every freemium MMO would be P2W.
Rift doesn't have subscribers.
They have elite status like how swtor has it's "premium for those who paid 60$ for the game and who paid 5$ on the cartel market."
And still in those MMO's you can get and wear all armor, unlike swtor where f2pers cannnot wear most high level armor and most purple armors.
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you could just reference to this: http://www.swtor.com/free/features
it clearly shows, that it is not intended for f2p players to really enjoy the endgame without paying a lot of unlocks, so you do attack their marketing strategy to let the f2p players enjoy all the class stories (which are a huge part of swtor) but not the endgame.
This is not p2w, this is p2play, so please rest that silly argument
Which is why they should rename "Free to Play" to "Glorified demo, please pay us money to be able to play the parts that make a MMO a MMO"
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Payments should only be used to broaden the gaming experience without affecting the gameplay itself.
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Pay to win is paying for something in game that is not normally available to players.
The items you mention are available to players without paying.
One could say paying a sub is pay to win...sure.
But I'm not sure what kind of point this makes, unless your making a point that pencils are made of wood and lead and lead is bad for you.
Again, go look at the restriction page before saying that these restrictions don't exist.
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Well, one could argue, that you were the first ti pull things from mid air.
You are speaking of "pay to win", when there were repeated statements, that you only need to buy the expansion to be on par with all lvl 55 and if you do not even pay for the expansion you can still be on par with anyone else up to the point of reaching lvl 50.
You never explained how the system allows anyone who is paying to "win" over someone, who is playing for free.
And here is why it is pay to win:
Free to Play can't use best armor untill they have paid a subscription (that alone is pay to win but I will continue), they have a very limited credit limit, They cannot go into operations to get the best gear (that they can't even wear,) subbed players level up faster. Free players also do not have rest experience - making those who pay level up faster (or win faster.) They have a limited number of skills to use due to the quickbar restriction. Those who pay can craft faster, leaving those who haven't paid in the dust with crafting.
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Well, one could argue, that you were the first ti pull things from mid air.
You are speaking of "pay to win", when there were repeated statements, that you only need to buy the expansion to be on par with all lvl 55 and if you do not even pay for the expansion you can still be on par with anyone else up to the point of reaching lvl 50.
You never explained how the system allows anyone who is paying to "win" over someone, who is playing for free.
You are just proving it there. "Just pay to avoid being under every other person who paid."
Pay to avoid pay to win isn't the best logic because you are just giving into to the dumb system.
And even if the free players did go and buy the expansion, they still can't use the purple gear due to the restriction that they cannot use most purple leveled items.
Instead of saying that I'm pulling things out of my ***, go take a look at the restriction page.
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I'm beginning to think that a cohesive arguement is beyond his capabilities.
No, none of Tsillah's arguments makes any kind of sense. He is pulling things out of mid air to find someway to defend the system.
"It's like trying to argue with an Xbox One buyer, they all ways gotta find a slip-around."
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the cost of this game paid sub over a year is still cheaper than buying 3 console games that are useless once you beat them. i think the sub price justified.
Not when they treat the original buyers of the game like crap..
BioEAware: "Lets give em premium membership - the same membership a f2p player gets when he pays 5$ on the cartel market. Let's also give premium the same crap restrictions!"
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I ask you... can you play it for free?
No, I bet not one person has beaten the story in a F2P account without paying for anything, weather it be for a sub or cartel coins.
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I quit around last year due to their awful CS. So when I came back at F2P I was shocked and livid...Ill get to that later though. I played this game since beta. I spent $85 on it upfront and did 4-5 months of subbing before i quit so a total of 180$ spent on this game. So while I wasn't playing anymore due to my problems I ran in with CS. I noticed, "SWTOR going F2P!" And I was like wow! really awesome! maybe now this game will have fixed all its problems added some new stuff and I can get back into it.
Ahaha no....I re install get on my smuggler (whos in full purple raid gear) and I noticed...where are my quick bars? why cant I hide my helmet? Why do I only have 4 character slots? what? I can only do a few warzone but I love PvP? I was just shocked keep in mind I spent over 180 dollars on this game prior. So this was a huge slap in the face to me a loyal customer who followed this game since 2009 and I cant even enjoy the game anymore. Even though it has that big Free To Play! sticker on it. Keep in mind I asked around in chat (the limited chat i could even say) And people had the nerve to tell me "you should be glad your even able to play this game in the first place" Once I told them that ive payed for this game a long with months of subbing (founder title) they shut the heck up.
So in all Why would Bioware/EA think its okay to do this to people who bought the game fair and square. I mean GW2, Tera, Rift, Never-winter, Aion, and many others don't do this. Ive loved Star-Wars since I was 5 years old which is why i put it above the others. I mean there isn't even atleast some cool thing they give to members who bought the game when it launched? Like "Alright since you bought our game which was 85 for the deluxe you can alteast have all your quickbars." Anyways rant over. Its late and i'm very tired so mind the grammar, but this is my fuss on SWTOR free to try model. Good Night.
Also (I pray every day that they will see the light and remove these restrictions to free to play members and make the cartel shop worth spending money on so that it gives and incentive for f2p players to buy from it, not just limit them till they just quit. But aleast keep some limits there like exp and small small things. But remove ALL limits for ppl who bought the game! ) and plz remove when you take out a dye it destroys I mean really? just let us take it out like a normal mod!
^100% true
We who actually support the game at launch by buying the actual game are treated as someone who paid 5$ on the cartel market.
+1 for BioEAware's love for its players.
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That's because like a few other people here, you made a big mistake. You thought this game went f2p. It hasn't.
When you played originally, you were subbed. Surprise surprise, if you sub, you will get all that stuff again. Why? Because that's how the game was set up and there still are subs. Again, this game didn't go f2p, it isn't f2p but it has an f2p option with a number of limitations.
But please people, just get this through your thick skulls, just because this game has f2p options, doesn't mean the game is f2p now. It still clearly supports subs and as such, you can never expect to get the same options as subbed people. That's about as simple as adding 1+1 .....
Huh...So the big "NOW FREE TO PLAY" is just for decoration?
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Go take a gander at the comment section of their f2p videos.
Those are unbiased opinions.
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Could you name at least 2 MMOs, where you can indeed go to max level without worries and be as effective as a subscriber in terms of combat without paying a thing. I might want to check them out.
I went over this already. Tera and Rift. I'll give some more. Lotro, DCUO, Aion. All were pay to play, all went free.
But they aren't as good games as swtor is. Their f2p model is LEAGUES ahead of swtor's.
Pay to Win
in General Discussion
Posted · Edited by Propane
Yeah kinda how all other F2P games forums are open to the public? I can go make an account without playing the game on other F2P games and post just like any normal play. But EA leaves this option to only those who pay.