I love group quests but honestly they just don't work in this game because there simply isn't enough "demand" (especially for heroic 4's in later planets.) When you have 30 people on Voss all at different points in their "questing" it is virtually impossible to find 3 others to group with in any reasonable fashion. I want to do them while leveling but I certainly am not going to spend three hours spamming general for 2M to do them. Good idea that just doesn't seem to work very well in practice. Sad.

So let's see... Common reasons people say LFD is not needed include: 1 - Make friends and go to them when you want to group (because everyone on your friends list is ALWAYS online whenever you need them) 2 - Be in an active guild (because everyone is in a guild with 300 members all at your call whenever you want to run a FP) 3 - Playing with people in your server is somehow "better" (as if idiots aren't abound on your server as well) Guess what? Nothing, NOTHING, stops you from grouping with friends, guild-mates or being "server exclusive" with LFD. Basically you just don't want other people to find groups faster is what it boils down to because either a) you have a very narrow view of what an MMO should be and everyone MUST adhere, b) you had a bad LFD experience in WoW and somehow have amnesia regarding how those bad groups happened before LFD just as often or c) you just want to a jerk to the guy that logs in at 8:00 after a long day at work, has a small guild that isn't always online and just wants to do a fast flashpoint in the half hour he has to play. Keep listening to the vocal minority and you'll end up with another dying MMO. /sigh Really love this game but it is easily the hardest time I've had to group in an MMO ... EVER (as a Tank to boot.) LFG within the server will do nothing to solve the problem ... mark my words; this road has been taken before and the result will be the same.

None of them have worked ... period. Eventually it degrades back to general chat. Remember how awful and unused the LF tools Blizzard tried to put in before LFD were? The core problem isn't the "getting people together" part - it's creating a big enough pool of players that lets you do so quickly. To get that pool you need to extend the reach beyond the server. You know an interim step may be to "cluster" servers into sets of 4-5 for LFD purposes. It's FREAKING MATH ... nothing else. That's a brilliant suggestion that totally solves the problem

Nothing drags MMO development down more than people that continue to hold on to past memories (while wearing rose-colored glasses) of how awesome it was sitting in places like Iron Forge spamming /1 LF Healer BRD or camping named mobs in EQ. Sadly these folks tend to be the most vocal while those that want "modern tools" are more apt to silently quit than spend months debating on an MMO forum.

This is exactly why cross-server LFD is needed and developers need to stop listening to the senseless hyperbole coming from players who feel it ruined WoW. No "in-server" tool will resolve the issue that players are facing right now (particularly Republic) because there simply isn't a big enough pool within each server to efficiently build groups. Sure there is this theoretical nirvana where everyone has a robust friends list (with friends always online) and a huge mega-guild that never has a shortage of healers just *dying* to run flashpoints. Hate to break it to folks but that doesn't exist for a lot of players in the game and expecting casual folks to seriously build networks when they just want to log in for 30 minutes after work and bang out a flash point is inane in 2012. I ran a very successful raiding guild in WoW and used LFD all the time. Even with the incredibly hard heroics at the launch of Cataclysm I was able to have pretty solid experiences MOST of the time. Sure there were idiots, sure there were ninjas and sure there were people I had to kick - but net/net the fact I could log-in and get a group going in under 5 minutes FAR outweighed the negatives. Doing the same within my server only would have taken much longer (most of the time) and often would have left me with just a different set of idiots in my group. Nothing, even the awful UI, will kill TOR faster than people not being able to group quickly. I love this game and I had to log in disgust last night after spending 2 hours in the fleet looking for ONE more person to do level 50 flashpoints (healer needed ... of course.) This is during a Friday night, prime time, heavy pop server. Also I kept seeing the same 4-5 people advertising all night long for the same flash points. Sure, there isn't a problem - keep telling yourselves that. Bioware really needs to stop listening to the vocal minority and FAST because if they did a real poll of people playing the game (not just forum surfers) I bet over 75% would be pro cross-server tools. Everyone in my guild is for it.

You're obviously just selecting certain pieces of my post to try to discredit my post claiming I want "easy" rewards. Clearly I led a raiding guild for seven years raiding pre-nerf cutting edge content six nights a week because I just love easy-mode rewards. Let me shock you: I could care less if they made them weekly and kept the commendation counts the same - it has nothing to do with the "purples" as the kiddies say. Some of us actually play to be challenged every night - not to do "housework" MMO style. While MMOs by their nature have a grind element - it is absolutely insane to embrace tedium because "it's just the way it is." Seriously you should look into playing an Asian MMO - they are experts at developing grinding marathons. Some of us just like the "game" part - you know where you are actually challenged, engaged and /gasp having fun. Not a great troll, but I'll give you a daily commendation for trying. I'm off to bed, I think the vast majority of the posts here prove that I'm not alone in my thoughts. I really do give Bioware credit for making a very solid game, it's just a shame they fell back to some of the old "stand-bys" that annoy the heck out of *most* people.

Why does it offend you that I dare challenge that idiom in one respect (being daily quests?) I don't know why I'm bothering but I played MMOs for ten odd years for the challenge of clearing content with a group friends. The organization and coordination needed for raids and PvP drove me to endure the less pleasurable parts of the genre. I know it may confuse you but it is possible to not enjoy grinds and repetition but enjoy being challenged and pushed hard to perform well in a game. Pressing a button every day for 30 days to get enough pellets to buy a weapon is NOT the same as coordinating a group of 25 players to kill M'uru. I don't begrudge allowing access to gear to solo players but I do begrudge the lazy and thoughtless way MMOs are doing it via Dailies. We can expect better. We can expect the game to deliver more strongly for both casual and hardcore players alike. If you honestly think that grinding repetition is anything other than a mechanism to keep you subscribed and that it's "good gameplay" then you are just being naive. I understand "why" it is the way it is - but that doesn't mean we as gamers shouldn't challenge developers when we aren't having "fun." This thread clearly shows that very few people are having a lot of fun saving timmy the pilot every day on Illum. It's really troll like to think someone who is against dailies just wants hand-outs. Maybe some do, but there is room for intelligent debate that doesn't fall back to "lol he juz wantz gears."

Ever hear of addition by subtraction? You don't always need to replace a bad idea with a good one, sometimes just getting rid of the bad idea in and of itself fixes the problem. Dailies are a bad idea, I already know people who won't bother with TOR just because they specifically HATE daily quests. Want a new idea? You know what is kind-of fun? Those solo "flash points" they have throughout the story quest with interesting mini-bosses. Why not make 4 of those, rotate them weekly, add random drops to the trash and give commendations upon clearing the boss? You can re-use mobs and locations so no heavy lifting is needed by the developers. After a few cycles you can add new bosses. If you want, you can even make longer ones that take a day or two to clear and provide a raid-style save feature. If you make 4, after 3 months you've only done each 3 times ... that's not terrible. It isn't a magic bullet but we're too far gone to re-invent TOR into something else (not that it needs to be on a wholesale basis mind you.) It's solo friendly content without being completely inane.

You know once upon a time I was like you - I thought that you had to "earn" every little pellet through hours and hours of tedious "work" and that grinds built character. Then I woke up one morning and realized it was a freaking video game and video games are supposed to be ... hold for it ... fun. It is about doing LESS tedious stuff to get to the punchline. It's not like you really "earn" the epic gear anyway by doing inane quests every day. Any "old school" raider would scoff at the fact these things even provide the rewards they do for such "trivial" effort. Elitist attitudes need to die in the proverbial fire, and I used to be an elitist myself. Yeah, because clearly that's my desire. I'd rather they stick those implants on a boss that takes 5 months to learn - that would be "earning it" in your parlance. You think logging on every day to save billy the ewok from his shuttle makes you "earn" tier gear? I really could care less that people get it but I do care when people think it's something other than doing your homework every night to get your allowance. /facepalm

That's a developer problem not a player problem to be perfectly frank. If you need dailies to "bribe" people to stay subscribed then you have a problem. I'm fine keeping my subscription running even if I'm out of content for a month between patches, who cares it's $15 bucks. Your game should be good enough to keep people paying even during lulls (and I'm pretty sure BW/EA can pull that off w/o dailies.)

No, the quests give you the story - the dailies REPEAT the story over and over and over every single day. You can have the original quest without the repetition. I can think of about a million other things to do in an hour in a half in and out of game that are infinitely more entertaining. An hour and a half is an awful long time for someone who has only about that amount of time to parse for gaming every night as many casual players do. You can ignore them though ... BUT.. The problem is the rewards aren't really such that you can ignore them so you have to be a good hamster and get on the wheel.... It's the worst part of the MMO model and this is coming from someone who lead raids for eight years at a high level. Why don't we skip the BS and get to the actual content of raiding and doing content - REAL content like flash points, operations and pvp. Name me one raider in WoW that enjoyed grinding dailies for weeks to get shoulder enchants? You can't - unless they are trolling for laughs. It's not challenging, it's not fun and it's just freaking WORK. I'd rather spend 2 hours wiping on an impossible boss. Because that's how every MMO has worked, that's the only way to do it? None of us geniuses here can ask the dumb question "why are we doing something that is so devoid of fun to get to the "fun?"" Imagine if the dailies were removed - the rewards were moved to flash point drops or what-have-you - do you think anyone would really quit over it? Doubtful.

If you paid attention to my original post I did present a compromise - make them weekly instead of daily and adjust rewards accordingly. Stating a complaint isn't whining, nor is asking for something "better" in a genre that sorely needs a kick in the pants. I have other "ideas" but none of them fit into this box. We're not theorycrafting a new MMO, we're trying to make the one we have better.

No it wasn't missed - you just seem fine with the absolute worst form of tedium possible - non-challenging repeat quests over and over every single day. At least raids were fun :/

Rather not turn this into another sandbox-vs-theme park debate because I'm not sure that dailies are a "staple" that is required to be a theme park. Un-fun design can happen in either category, and dailies are an example of "un-fun" design. TOR was never, EVER, going to be a sandbox game (for better or worse.) Let's just see if we can make it a "better" theme park

Thanks for the colors, I don't think I could have gotten your point without the emphasis You're right, we should all just accept the fact that MMOs are stuck in a bygone era and we should all accept that repetition of mundane tasks on a daily basis is the backbone of a good entertainment product. There will always be people that think that farming named mobs in EQ and waiting for a call at 4am for a spawn was fun ... but yeah, that's not really the majority by any stretch any longer. There are plenty of fun activities in MMOs including raids (before they become farm-fests), dungeons (before they become farm-fests) and PvP. I'll add to that leveling for the first time ever thanks to Bioware actually making an MMO with the "RPG" part attached. How can you even compare dailies to raiding? /boggle MAYBE farm-mode raiding, but most guilds knew when to stop farming because it was wearing out their player's psyches.

I think they are easy to develop and they provide a way for people who don't raid, pvp or do flash points to earn something. That's the "intent" as far as I can tell but all it does is create a non-fun treadmill that nobody (even the target audience) really enjoys. Making them weekly will at least temper the hatred IMHO till someone has the guts to say "you know what, these suck kick 'em from the game and let's figure something new out."

PvP dailies aren't part of the problem - they are perfectly fine (well except the horror that is Illum PvP right now with people win-swapping for badges /sigh)

I figured this would be addressed and while I "theoretically" agree they present a dilemma for a lot of players who hate them but feel obligated to do them. When I ran a raiding guild it was pretty much "expected" you would do your dailies as long as you needed the upgrades. It wasn't fun, everyone hated it, and yet we did it. I find even casual players feel pressured to do them because "they are there" and we as human beings are naturally impatient and want our rewards quickly. Making them weekly I think resolves a lot of issues while keeping the "carrot" in play that developers want. I personally don't plan to do them every day, but the fact they exist just bothers the hell out of me. They are the pure antithesis of fun.

But by definition aren't games supposed to be fun? This is what is maddening to me .... I've never met one non-troll who said "gosh I just LOVE doing my dailies every single day!" Look, I'm in business and I "get it" that you need to keep people playing but there have got to be better ways. People subscribed to WoW before daily quests existed ... I'm pretty sure they aren't the only reason people play MMO's. They were designed as a "let's add content for casuals" mechanism. I actually would find that condescending as a casual player if they felt "content" was saving idiot-boy in Illum every day was fun

I hear you on the raiding repetition too ... ICC just about drained all enjoyment I ever had in 10 odd years of playing MMO's. One of the reasons I'm taking this game at a far slower pace than I have in the past. Nothing is more soul-sucking than doing the same thing over and over for months at a time.

I'll preface this by saying I completely understand why Daily Quests became a staple in the MMO space in recent years. They are easy to develop and provide a cheap way to get people to continue to log-in to earn their (pardon the snark) "hamster pellets" (badges/commendations.) I also quit WoW after 7 odd years because of how these types of "content pushes" started becoming the norm and you slowly felt like you were logging in after a long day at work to do ... more work. If you raided you really had no option as you needed to get your "pellet" gear ASAP (e.g. the shoulder enchant grind in WoW.) You started to remember every daily quest not by how much "fun" it was but it's tedious quirks - the bad drop rate, the mobs that spawn to slowly, the annoying elite, etc etc. I just two days ago hit 50 here and I have to say the leveling experience has been largely a breath of fresh air. Not everything was rainbows and unicorns while leveling but this morning after my second day of "dailies" I realized that dear god I'm back in the same litter box I left when I kicked Blizzard to the curb. I've certainly not been naive to what the game would look like at 50, but the reality of it still became jarring when I had to go back out to save the same idiot, in the same shuttle, on Illum and asked myself: "Is this guy going to be here for another 5 months while I get all my commendations - can I just shot him for some dark side points and put us all out of our misery?" I've decided I'm not going to do dailies any more on any sort of regular basis because they simply are not FUN. This does not apply to flashpoints or pvp as those activities are largely still enjoyable, but the daily "earn a hamster pellet" quests have to stop. Does anyone out there actually find these fun? Do we all just do them to earn the pellet and groan under our breath? I wish I had a solution other than going back in time and strangling the person at Blizzard that started the trend in BC. Maybe I can close this with one possible compromise: Can we replace dailies with weeklies? Do we really need to save the idiot in the shuttle every freaking day? Can we do it ONCE a week and adjust the rewards accordingly? I'd much rather level an alt in the 2 hours I have on weeknights to play, or pvp, or do a flashpoint. Always as a developer ask yourself: "Is this fun?"

I never understood why people rarely complain about the instant grouping mechanisms in place for PvP but constantly complain about LFD. Look, grouping is the heart and soul of these games come "end-game" and anything that makes it less aggravating to find a group is better. I'm very well adjusted and social but that doesn't mean I want to sit in the fleet waiting to form a group when I could be out doing things waiting on a que to pop. Like it or not LFD is now a "must have" feature in the genre, time for people to move on and accept it to be perfectly honest.

The trooper story is very average at best, and the companions you get are pretty bland. I wish I could airlock Dorne and Kitty (Aric) as they are easily some of the most boring and unlikable companions I've ever had in any Bioware game. I would certainly not play a trooper for the story/companions as there are far better options. That being said, the class is very enjoyable and ultimately that moved me to level a Vanguard first.

Orbital Stations are simply a case of something that sounded good in theory ending up being awful in practice. Complete waste of time.

Well the only way EB wins in the threat department is if in fact you find yourself forced to Hammer Shot more often with Gut, because otherwise Gut seems to convincingly do more damage. Albeit the threat curve is different (upfront vs. over time.) I suspect Bioware wants us to use EB, so if Gut does "win" I wouldn't be surprised to see EB buffed (win/win.) Regarding simplicity, I have two points: 1 - Simple is actually better when tanking; having highly involved rotations sounds "cool" in theory but in practice is only compelling when you're bored out of your mind bashing some random tank-and-spank boss. With dynamic encounters, adding excessive (key word) complexity to rotations often adds a layer that just becomes frustrating. 2 - I'm not sure Gut makes life materially easier as now you have to manage another debuff while playing with UI: Circa 1998™. I do think EB will be more fun to "theorycraft" but I don't think Gut changes things so much that you can just bash a key while watching TV. Definitely enjoying the dialogue and I'm more than happy to be proven wrong in the long-run regarding Gut. Maybe it's the fact I played a Druid tank/healer in WoW that makes me miss those lovely bleeds!