Expertise needs too go

[Husanak]

Jurisnoctis... All right I can follow that train of thought.

 

Reduce massive burst designed for PvE by adding too the defense value. I can follow that reasoning. I also understand how annoying it was in Wow Too have the guy that has the Kill the PvE Massive Goblin Gear Set... blasting you for 3/4 of your health in one GCD.

 

This brings us to perhaps a better solution then a Stat that Drives away new cannon fodder (weather its a real imbalance or a perceived one doesn't really matter) At some point those new players run into the end game bracket and players with out the skill to recognize skill will blame their gear if something obvious like a PvP stat exists.

 

What if the same behind the scene magic that reduces PvP healing... also reduced PvP dmg... or curved it to avoid the 8k crits we can achieve now. Although I would agree with you that we have really not seen any good amount of 50 on 50 pvp yet. Thanks for coming back by the way. ;P

[Jurisnoctis]

Problem is unless you make stats dead even, with choice of what I want for crit/alacrity/surge, etc, it won't work.

 

Why PvP to get... nothing? What's our reward, gear as good as PvE gear? Then the poster above poses a problem. Every guild is not a PvP & PvE guild, you force one to do something they don't want to, or have people get unfair advantages in progression/PvP.

 

Gear worse than PvE gear? You see the problem.

 

Gear better? Once more.

 

It has to be gear "Different" from PvE gear, to differentiate skill/progression/focus in either case.

 

Bad things happen when PvE and PvP overlap...

[Husanak]

So lets look at it like this....

 

You say make the gear equal, right?

Yes.

[sNIP]

How fun is that?

 

Its a game we play for fun... are you saying your guild would have a hard time getting people to run raids if their was no carrot? I don't know I run stuff with my friends because we want too... then we go roll pvp for a few more hours... you know we play too have fun. You are falling for MMO 101 (Lock your Pay check into a gear grind) I think Bio might be trying to break that.

 

Those of you "pvpers" that want equal gear with no pvp stats make no sense. Any real pvper wants pvp stats that give them an advantage in pvp over a non-pvper...you say skill, yea yea, we all know, your all pro and will kill any epic geard "pve noob" in your greens. we get it.

I work for the advantages I have... and no I don't want my gear to be 10 or 20% better then my opponents just cause... if I choose the right mix of stats to complement my play style thats good... a dumb down here's your free 20% no thanks keep it. + I need tears for my tear drives and when I get "of course you smoked me you have way better PvP gear" the tears are tainted... I want "DAMN you PvP man" ya know.

 

Point is, there needs to be a difference. Not fair for someone to be able to afk in warzones and get the same gear as someone spending the time learning, coordinating and working with his guild on progression raiding.

 

@stocean, its all a grind, whether your raiding or pvping, your grinding for gear...what would you rather get for your time spent pvping? bragging rights?

 

You are right I would love PvP gear to be based off of WINS... just like the daily. Or even better off of a rating system where gear would litterly shut off if you fell under a mark... just like all of a sudden going light side would make your dark IV stuff drop off. (I think Bio is shooting a bit more casual then that though)

 

To be honest YES I PvP for bragging rights... no I don't do it for gear. In other games I will on purposely fight in crap gear so I can screenshot it and be a dick... I will do dumb things like remove a shield and slap my target in the face... make no mistake I am one of those PvP jerks. Having said that I don't want the artificial boost, I want people fighting against me too understand just how bad they are, no excuses. LOL

[Husanak]

Just as a new thought... would a PvE stat not make more sense ?

 

All those shiny PvE Raid Sets could have a Midichlorian Count Stat... which would give bonus dmg in PvE...

The stat would be worthless in PvP and fighting the toons in PvP gear would equal out anyway. I don't think I have ever heard a AI QQ about a toons gear selection.

[Anishor]

I agree with the OP. The game should provide multiple avenues for the same level of gear. Whether it be crafting, raiding, pvp. If you balance them all out to be the same it allows people to invest in their prefered game play but not penalize them for trying something new.

 

Also real pvpers prefer good fights and their fights influencing the world over stick and carrot ( ie arena rankings and pvp specific gear that gives vast advantage in pvp ).

 

The only people that I in my experience who care about arena rankings and pvp gear giving them an advantage over people are those who need to e-peen or might suck with their out their huge gear advantage. I saw it happen a lot in SWG's pilot scene.

[darth_knine]

First let me say this is not QQ... I understand its much too late for Bio to really go back on something like a stat... in any event, it will be either 1) a pointless stat that Bio will nerf too almost nothing (Which I would perfer) or 2) it will like most companies keep going up every time the level cap does and destroy PvP.

 

PvP stats are the worst idea the MMO companies ever came up with in general.

 

I am a hardcore pvp player... I spend 90% of my time in every game I play in PvP. I HATE PvP stats.

 

Why is it so hard to simply make sure PvP reward gear has = stats too the PvE reward gear.

 

I don't CARE as a full time PvP player if the guy that runs raids all day wants to que up once a week and happens to be equal too me in gear. COOL... thats good for PvP. I welcome the fight... he might enjoy it enough to que more often... and everyone wins don't we?

 

All the PvP stats do is make BAD PvP players that don't do PvE (likely because they don't get along well with others in general lol) feel like they are good.

 

I win most PvP fights I get into... it doesn't matter if I have the best gear or not. Because I don't suck. Almost every game I have ever PvPed in I always end up getting questions from new players. "What Gear?" bla bla... they rarely believe me when I tell them I wasted them with a toon with low grade gear cause I was testing this or that theory.

 

PvP stats are a crutch that needs to be removed from this game before It destroys this games PvP... and it will.

 

New players will stop queing up after getting beat on for a few rounds by "Hardcore" PvP guys... not because there more skilled but because they have 40% bonuses.

 

"Hardcore" PvP players will quit because the Ques won't pop for 2 hours at a time.

 

The real PvP players that would be willing to fight anyone in white gear.... will have long since left in disgust.

 

Anyway if you got this far... sorry for the rant. If your a Bio employee consider reducing the Exp stat too a bare min... and remember to keep it right there. Putting massive road blocks in the way of new players will NOT help PvP long term.

/rant

 

Agree with this 100%

 

Any real pvp game doesn't have pvp gear because pvp is fun and not needed, see guild wars for example.

 

This is copy of what WoW did and they did it because their pvp sucks. It isn't fun enough to jus play like SWTOR so you have to give rewards to get people to play.

[zaibas]

someone may have mentioned this as i only read the first 2 pages of posts so far.

 

the reason that game devs add these pvp stats is not to prevent pve players from using their pve gear in pvp but rather the opposite. most developers concentrate on the pve game, the pvp is secondary and they dont want pvers pvping to get gear to help them trivialize pve content. pvp stats are just a way for devs to prevent the use of pvp to make the important (pve) content easier in a game that has a pve focus as most recent mmos including swtor have

Edited December 31, 2011 by zaibas

[Forkrul]

someone may have mentioned this as i only read the first 2 pages of posts so far.

 

the reason that game devs add these pvp stats is not to prevent pve players from using their pve gear in pvp but rather the opposite. most developers concentrate on the pve game, the pvp is secondary and they dont want pvers pvping to get gear to help them trivialize pve content. pvp stats are just a way for devs to prevent the use of pvp to make the important (pve) content easier in a game that has a pve focus as most recent mmos including swtor have

 

To do that they would add a stat to pve gear that would be needed to deal normal damage to the mobs. Without that pvp gear is just slightly worse than pve gear of the same tier and you can enter the pve raid already overgeared.

[Jurisnoctis]

Just as a new thought... would a PvE stat not make more sense ?

 

All those shiny PvE Raid Sets could have a Midichlorian Count Stat... which would give bonus dmg in PvE...

The stat would be worthless in PvP and fighting the toons in PvP gear would equal out anyway. I don't think I have ever heard a AI QQ about a toons gear selection.

 

1) That's entirely fine. It's the SAME EXACT THING. A PvX unique stat, doesn't matter.

 

Only thing would be this: A piece of gear in WoW currently has the following

 

Main Stat

Stamina

Substat 1

Substat 2

 

CURRENTLY on PvP gear, it's the case that Substat 2 is always resilience/expertise respectively.

 

If they made it so resilience is out, then sure, replace with crit or w/e.

 

BUT, PvE pieces would PROBABLY need to be balanced in the way of:

 

Main Stat

Stamina

Substat 1

PvE stat

 

OR ELSE, you'll have people complaining about the opposite. Remove PvE unique stats because one should not get PvP viable rewards PvEing.

 

Listen. MMOs take time investment guys...

 

If you don't have time to gear out all 8 toons in all PvP/PvE gear, you make choices.

 

This game is about choices. Choose what you want to focus on.

 

Light/Dark? Empire/Republic? Ranged/Melee? PvP/PvE?

[sjwho]

by the way guys, the pvp stats are just slightly less than the pve gear.

 

Just so you know, its not like they are super different.

[Xsorus]

I've got almost a full set of champion pvp gear, and I have 360 Expertise.

 

This is 8% bonus damage and 8% damage reduction.

 

Not a huge problem guys..

[tsupra]

Fully supporting this thread,i fancy one shoting everything once 1.3.3/1.3.4 Edited January 1, 2012 by tsupra

[CHRISGG]

No "hardcore pvper" would want pve gear to be the best for pvp.

[Mikisoq]

No offense, trying to be sarcastic, huggies. walk on water. PEACE

long story short, for the *CENSORED* who can't read; remove expertise as those who pvp alot already have true "expertise" to destroy other players in pvp matches.

[Jarfunkz]

First let me say this is not QQ... I understand its much too late for Bio to really go back on something like a stat... in any event, it will be either 1) a pointless stat that Bio will nerf too almost nothing (Which I would perfer) or 2) it will like most companies keep going up every time the level cap does and destroy PvP.

 

PvP stats are the worst idea the MMO companies ever came up with in general.

 

I am a hardcore pvp player... I spend 90% of my time in every game I play in PvP. I HATE PvP stats.

 

Why is it so hard to simply make sure PvP reward gear has = stats too the PvE reward gear.

 

I don't CARE as a full time PvP player if the guy that runs raids all day wants to que up once a week and happens to be equal too me in gear. COOL... thats good for PvP. I welcome the fight... he might enjoy it enough to que more often... and everyone wins don't we?

 

All the PvP stats do is make BAD PvP players that don't do PvE (likely because they don't get along well with others in general lol) feel like they are good.

 

I win most PvP fights I get into... it doesn't matter if I have the best gear or not. Because I don't suck. Almost every game I have ever PvPed in I always end up getting questions from new players. "What Gear?" bla bla... they rarely believe me when I tell them I wasted them with a toon with low grade gear cause I was testing this or that theory.

 

PvP stats are a crutch that needs to be removed from this game before It destroys this games PvP... and it will.

 

New players will stop queing up after getting beat on for a few rounds by "Hardcore" PvP guys... not because there more skilled but because they have 40% bonuses.

 

"Hardcore" PvP players will quit because the Ques won't pop for 2 hours at a time.

 

The real PvP players that would be willing to fight anyone in white gear.... will have long since left in disgust.

 

Anyway if you got this far... sorry for the rant. If your a Bio employee consider reducing the Exp stat too a bare min... and remember to keep it right there. Putting massive road blocks in the way of new players will NOT help PvP long term.

/rant

 

 

I can see that you do not know the game very well... Please read this further...

 

PVE is not hard. There are much fewer variables in pve than pvp. So, they should not be equal.

 

Next, pve gear does have some very nice stats... in fact, on equipment with crit/surge or power/surge, I may take those and add them to pvp gear instead of having accuracy with power or crit. This would make the ultimate pvp gear imo.

 

Oh wait, maybe I shouldn't have said any of that.

[Nempo]

Just as a new thought... would a PvE stat not make more sense ?

 

All those shiny PvE Raid Sets could have a Midichlorian Count Stat... which would give bonus dmg in PvE...

The stat would be worthless in PvP and fighting the toons in PvP gear would equal out anyway. I don't think I have ever heard a AI QQ about a toons gear selection.

 

This has been my stance from the beginning.

 

Get rid of expertise entirely, now add a raid stat that adds to PvE damage done. Problem is solved.

 

PvP vendors could allow Raid gear to be bought that did not have that stat on it (as in it doesn't exist, not in that stat being changed to something else). Raiders and Hard mode runners wouldn't want it, the forced learning/grinding in raids is still required. No PvP stat means occasionally those raiders will actually PvP and neither side has an advantage.

 

This is known as a win/win...only a fool argues against such a thing.

[Swaay]

Yes.

 

 

Its a game we play for fun... are you saying your guild would have a hard time getting people to run raids if their was no carrot? I don't know I run stuff with my friends because we want too... then we go roll pvp for a few more hours... you know we play too have fun. You are falling for MMO 101 (Lock your Pay check into a gear grind) I think Bio might be trying to break that.

 

 

I work for the advantages I have... and no I don't want my gear to be 10 or 20% better then my opponents just cause... if I choose the right mix of stats to complement my play style thats good... a dumb down here's your free 20% no thanks keep it. + I need tears for my tear drives and when I get "of course you smoked me you have way better PvP gear" the tears are tainted... I want "DAMN you PvP man" ya know.

 

 

 

You are right I would love PvP gear to be based off of WINS... just like the daily. Or even better off of a rating system where gear would litterly shut off if you fell under a mark... just like all of a sudden going light side would make your dark IV stuff drop off. (I think Bio is shooting a bit more casual then that though)

 

To be honest YES I PvP for bragging rights... no I don't do it for gear. In other games I will on purposely fight in crap gear so I can screenshot it and be a dick... I will do dumb things like remove a shield and slap my target in the face... make no mistake I am one of those PvP jerks. Having said that I don't want the artificial boost, I want people fighting against me too understand just how bad they are, no excuses. LOL

 

 

If you think that people will raid or pvp with no rewards you are delusional. You say you and your friends raid and pvp for the fun of it, so your telling me if all the gear in this game was just put on a vendor and could be bought readily with credits, then go and smash a new raid, you and your friends would be perfectly fine with that?

 

OK, sure you wont.

 

 

The "carrot" you speak of is the basic premise of any MMO. Character progression.

 

I agree with your point that PVP gear should be based off wins, to an extent. But lets see how you feel about that when your on the losing side, or come into the game late/behind the curve etc. You would be on here whining and crying about how its not fair, you can't get any gear because the other teams outgear you etc etc

 

Oh wait, I forgot, you SS yourself slapping people in the face with no shield in greens, with no shoes, in the snow, uphill all day right?

[Pashgan]

Agree with OP.

 

This game is full of outdated / stupid / borrowed ideas from ancient MMOs which make it un-comfortable and un-desirable to play and continue subscription. But some oh-so-90s people think if they separate PvP and PvE gear it will make people want to grind more.

 

There is NO WAY to force me to grind 2 separate gear sets and most likely I won't continue subscription after my initial 3 months of "paid beta-test" will end. Maybe a year later I'll reactivate subscription to check if game improved.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Pashgan

[Dracosz]

People are acting like Expertise is Resilience from WoW which isn't the case at all. Expertise has a direct scaling cap against itself and those without it whereas resilience had the unfortunate state of being exponentially effective in several cases.

 

The SWTOR implementation of the stat is fine, it's exclusively available on PvP gear which is a form of endgame (like it or not) and it's more than effective at stat/gear budget allocation. The mod system further improves this, providing players with the capacity to optimize in stats they prefer rather than those given.

 

Don't whine about things if you can't provide an effective argument as to why the mechanic is archaic.

[Ranebow]

Expertise and pvp type stats will play a major influence on the state of pvp in six months (or whenever).

 

In the immediate time, the frustrating thing is the scaling system.

 

I say this to people as a joke, and in no way as an elitist or with mal-intent, but a level 10 in a warzone shouldn't even be able look at a level 50 without suddenly imploding into a fireball.

 

And why do I say that?

Because a level 50 whom (Whether you consider it difficult or not) has made the effor to reach level 50, they also have abilities(fully ranked) and passive features that should make them more resistant, tolerant or immune to some forms of attack.

 

Yet what do we see? Two level 10 chain-stunning level 50s while all the action goes on around them and it's never resistable, blockable, evadable etc.

 

There's always the argument of stuns in pvp anyways, it's a bane of open world pvp for sure.

But there's plenty of easy ways to get around that..one is to just disable the skill(s) in pvp areas.

 

Never the less, the fact that low level(regardless of the fact that they're scaled up in hit points - which I agree with) can wreak havoc on people just for the sake of saying 'oh we downed a 50' 'wait but you all lost the match 'ya but we downed a 50' '..right..aren't you special' well that's it isn't it..stats...ratings..it's all e-peen.

 

That's how our world is..it's all about what you can gain on paper..stats..numbers..achievments..unlocks...rewards.

 

It's never about the experience or the enjoyment of the act itself.

 

Of course Bioware are just abusing the Star Wars license. These people give a rats *** about evolving the MMO landscape.

So I for one am not surprised.

Just surprised everyone else seems surprised.