Toraak Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 23 hours ago, Thenightvortex said: Somehow I’m still allowed to post here despite my sub running out a while ago so I’ll use this opportunity to note that this is yet another patch without Vaylin/Syl. Pls Broadsword it’s been almost 4 years since the tease, end the suspense and bring her back, even if it’s a small alert where you can kill her or let her go, it shouldn’t just be left unresolved. Vaylin is dead. For gods sake leave her that way. I'm so sick and tired of characters being brought back from the dead. Maul= Should have been left dead by Lucas (terrible decision) Grand Inquisitor= Should have remained dead because of the Obi Wan Show Other Inquisitor (forget her name)= Stabbed multiple times by vader should have remained dead. Revan=Should have been left dead, not in Swtor Valkorian= Should have been left dead after Knights story Malgus= Should have remained dead after False Emperor. I'm sure there are more I'm not thinking of atm, but the point is, rather then bringing back dead NPC (characters) make something new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thenightvortex Posted May 30 Author Share Posted May 30 2 minutes ago, Toraak said: Vaylin is dead. For gods sake leave her that way. I'm so sick and tired of characters being brought back from the dead. Maul= Should have been left dead by Lucas (terrible decision) Grand Inquisitor= Should have remained dead because of the Obi Wan Show Other Inquisitor (forget her name)= Stabbed multiple times by vader should have remained dead. Revan=Should have been left dead, not in Swtor Valkorian= Should have been left dead after Knights story Malgus= Should have remained dead after False Emperor. I'm sure there are more I'm not thinking of atm, but the point is, rather then bringing back dead NPC (characters) make something new. Vaylin is not dead, I explained why she is ver likely alive in this thread. I agree that bringing many dead characters is trite and repetitive but Vaylin has a story full of wasted potential that could’ve been done better. There’s no reason not to do this now, at the very least give the option to recruit or spare her for people that want her to. Arcann’s redemption arc hinged on nonsensical brainwashing ritual and yet people who liked him have that option no matter how sloppy the writing is. Vaylin should have the same. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 1 hour ago, Ramell said: You can't fix her. Why would I want to do that? She can make me worse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuchessKristania Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 2 hours ago, Thenightvortex said: Thanks, I’m glad I could be of help! I like Vaylin’s personality in KOTFE and imo she’s very pretty, but the reason I care so much and want her to have an opportunity for a happy ending is because she’s imo by far the most tragic and sympathetic member of Valkorion’s family but the narrative pays no respect to this tragedy and mistreats her in a number of ways. It’s fine if they wanted to tell a story of someone who was broken too much to ever be healed and had to die as she wouldn’t stop being a danger, it’s tragic yet realistic, but in Vaylin’s case the execution is bad and doesn’t stick the landing, so I don’t mind her coming back and getting another shot. For how exactly narrative mistreats her, check this post(not mine) that more or less started the campaign for Vaylin’s resurrection back in the day. https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/81rvet/bring_back_vaylin/ I've always found her story to be truly tragic, but I like to believe that she did find peace within the Force. Still, I wouldn't mind exploring the idea of her coming back in game. It could be interesting to play through. Maybe Malgus will have something to do with it., or the holocron that we've been chasing down. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thenightvortex Posted May 30 Author Share Posted May 30 3 minutes ago, Paulsutherland said: Why would I want to do that? She can make me worse! Hopefully Satele can help her heal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thenightvortex Posted May 30 Author Share Posted May 30 3 minutes ago, DuchessKristania said: I've always found her story to be truly tragic, but I like to believe that she did find peace within the Force. Still, I wouldn't mind exploring the idea of her coming back in game. It could be interesting to play through. Maybe Malgus will have something to do with it., or the holocron that we've been chasing down. Same, I’m excited to see how it goes down. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BelorfinSiana Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 Like Darth Malora being invited to join the Alliance, there are so many of these old dangling plot threads that seem to have been forgotten about by the writers. I still can't believe it's been years since Echoes of Oblivion, feels like yesterday. I hope they pick this back up... but I hope Vaylin doesn't just stay angry forever. She deserves better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLazarillo Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 2 hours ago, Toraak said: Valkorian= Should have been left dead after Knights story In fairness, he was left dead. His "return" was just Satele Shan having a fever dream of him being cloned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thenightvortex Posted May 31 Author Share Posted May 31 1 hour ago, BelorfinSiana said: Like Darth Malora being invited to join the Alliance, there are so many of these old dangling plot threads that seem to have been forgotten about by the writers. I still can't believe it's been years since Echoes of Oblivion, feels like yesterday. I hope they pick this back up... but I hope Vaylin doesn't just stay angry forever. She deserves better. Yeah what was that about proposing Malora to join and then just forgetting her? What a wasted opportunity. And Vaylin will definitely go through some sort of arc, surely they would make her recruitable or spareable, bringing her back only to kill her again would be incredibly wasteful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erdanwright Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 I really hope that we get clarification as to the whole "Vaylin and Syl" situation. It really intrigues me of how they set up these hints...it couldn't be a coincidence. Maybe in the next update or a flashpoint for Legacy of the Sith. I always wondered of how Vaylin's spirit was still around even after the original Valkorion's spiritual death. And, if the Syl and Vaylin implications are real, then how did she had the ability to transfer her essence into Syl's body? Anyways, if you followed the path and story where Arcann and Senya get killed, it is implied that they might not be really dead after all as well. When you meet Senya and Arcann's spirits in Echoes of Oblivion, Senya and Arcann say to the Outlander that they will "suffer in time" after they deal with Tenebrae. Not that long after, Senya says to the player that "this isn't your day, it's his." basically, Senya is saying that after dealing with Tenebrae, she, Arcann, and possibly Thexan and Vaylin will deal with the player later on. This hints that if you killed Senya and Arcann back in KOTET, they might return too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thenightvortex Posted May 31 Author Share Posted May 31 1 hour ago, erdanwright said: I really hope that we get clarification as to the whole "Vaylin and Syl" situation. It really intrigues me of how they set up these hints...it couldn't be a coincidence. Maybe in the next update or a flashpoint for Legacy of the Sith. I always wondered of how Vaylin's spirit was still around even after the original Valkorion's spiritual death. And, if the Syl and Vaylin implications are real, then how did she had the ability to transfer her essence into Syl's body? Anyways, if you followed the path and story where Arcann and Senya get killed, it is implied that they might not be really dead after all as well. When you meet Senya and Arcann's spirits in Echoes of Oblivion, Senya and Arcann say to the Outlander that they will "suffer in time" after they deal with Tenebrae. Not that long after, Senya says to the player that "this isn't your day, it's his." basically, Senya is saying that after dealing with Tenebrae, she, Arcann, and possibly Thexan and Vaylin will deal with the player later on. This hints that if you killed Senya and Arcann back in KOTET, they might return too. Personally I hope that Senya and Arcann won’t return because people/characters that wanted to spare them already had that opportunity in KOTET. With Vaylin people who wanted to spare her were railroaded into killing her, but here the people who have Senya and Arcann dead are the ones who chose to kill them and most likely don’t want to see them again. It will make the story too convoluted as well. Thexan is another matter though. He’s different from Arcann and Vaylin in that he didn’t get a fleshed out personality and he was basically introduced just to die for the development of other family matters, but I don’t mind if he comes back to become a choice later on too along with Vaylin. He is an interesting character in that most account we have from him comes from other people. Arcann and Vaylin loved him and he was the mediator that kept them sane, but he was also favored by Valkorion which is said in the codex, so he must have some darkness to him as well. And he does look at Syl’s body too along with Vaylin, who knows what this means. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erdanwright Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 5 minutes ago, Thenightvortex said: Personally I hope that Senya and Arcann won’t return because people/characters that wanted to spare them already had that opportunity in KOTET. With Vaylin people who wanted to spare her were railroaded into killing her, but here the people who have Senya and Arcann dead are the ones who chose to kill them and most likely don’t want to see them again. It will make the story too convoluted as well. I wonder what Arcann and Senya meant by swearing revenge on the player back in Echoes of Oblivion then. Did they just not know that they will become one with the Force or something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casirabit Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 24 minutes ago, erdanwright said: I wonder what Arcann and Senya meant by swearing revenge on the player back in Echoes of Oblivion then. Did they just not know that they will become one with the Force or something else? They only swore revenge on those who killed them in Voss. My characters did not kill them so therefore they were still alive for me and never swore revenge against my characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erdanwright Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 37 minutes ago, casirabit said: They only swore revenge on those who killed them in Voss. My characters did not kill them so therefore they were still alive for me and never swore revenge against my characters. I know that, I just wondered what they meant if you killed them on Voss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thenightvortex Posted May 31 Author Share Posted May 31 2 hours ago, erdanwright said: I wonder what Arcann and Senya meant by swearing revenge on the player back in Echoes of Oblivion then. Did they just not know that they will become one with the Force or something else? Honestly could just be vague ill-wishings. After all they don’t say that they are going to cause the Outlander to suffer or that they will be there “on their day”, it could just be wishing for wishing for some Karmic or divine punishment(since Senya really thinks killing her children is somehow a bad thing despite their countless crimes). Similar to how Valk said “remember me when your alliance burns to ash” in KOTET 9. I killed those two on vast majority of my characters(to the point I’ve done echoes about 10 times and none of them were with Senya and Arcann alive lol) and I’d rather they stay dead. Honestly, the logistics of the family scene in EOO are flawed, no matter which version. If Senya and Arcann are alive they’re with you and Vaylin has been stuck in your mind and now gets taken by Valkorion. But why is Thexan there with her? If he came there with other spirits like Revan or Marr then why is he under Valk’s control? The everyone are dead scene is weird. Valk has Vaylin with him, but is surprised that Arcann, Thexan, and Senya appear. Shouldn’t Vaylin and Arcann be together? Why is he so shocked Arcann is there when he already has Vaylin lol. And Senya’s “you should ask yourself that question, not me” implies her spirit was in the PC’s mind too? Were all three of them together? That must have been a fun time lmao. Such a weird scene ngl but it’s amusing with how they gang up on Valk. At least it explains why Senya was in chapter 9 of KOTET if she’s dead, her spirit was also there. Before that I liked to headcanon that this wasn’t real Senya but a projection the outlander created(because my mind, my rules) to troll Valkorion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 On 5/31/2024 at 8:48 PM, erdanwright said: I wonder what Arcann and Senya meant by swearing revenge on the player back in Echoes of Oblivion then. Did they just not know that they will become one with the Force or something else? Did they? I thought Senya basically tell the player character to **** off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erdanwright Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 16 hours ago, Paulsutherland said: Did they? I thought Senya basically tell the player character to **** off? Yes, They did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thenightvortex Posted June 3 Author Share Posted June 3 They try to guilt-trip you over what you did which imo is quite funny, I’m never getting convinced that killing mass murderers is somehow evil. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 13 hours ago, erdanwright said: Yes, They did. Arcann makes a remark about us 'suffering in time' but their attention is focused on Valkorion. https://youtu.be/zk-iHLgwePA?si=LLI68GzkBnXL1Gmd&t=1489 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAWUSS Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 On 5/30/2024 at 5:44 PM, Toraak said: Vaylin is dead. For gods sake leave her that way. I'm so sick and tired of characters being brought back from the dead. Maul= Should have been left dead by Lucas (terrible decision) Grand Inquisitor= Should have remained dead because of the Obi Wan Show Other Inquisitor (forget her name)= Stabbed multiple times by vader should have remained dead. Revan=Should have been left dead, not in Swtor Valkorian= Should have been left dead after Knights story Malgus= Should have remained dead after False Emperor. I'm sure there are more I'm not thinking of atm, but the point is, rather then bringing back dead NPC (characters) make something new. I guess if HK-47 survived the Foundry, why not Malgus? And yeah, I know HK-47 was a bit different (he had to because of his appearance in SWG), but I guess if he managed to get out - actively or passively - then it's possibly Malgus could have as well. Valk was established to have cheated death a number of times, so that works OK. I'm someone who did not care KOTET/FE at all, BTW. At least the story is now at a point where I can headcanon that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BelorfinSiana Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 30 minutes ago, DAWUSS said: I guess if HK-47 survived the Foundry, why not Malgus? And yeah, I know HK-47 was a bit different (he had to because of his appearance in SWG), but I guess if he managed to get out - actively or passively - then it's possibly Malgus could have as well. Valk was established to have cheated death a number of times, so that works OK. I'm someone who did not care KOTET/FE at all, BTW. At least the story is now at a point where I can headcanon that out. Mind blown. I didn't know he was in anything not made by Bioware. (KOTOR 2 doesn't count, being a sequel to a Bioware game) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAWUSS Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 59 minutes ago, BelorfinSiana said: Mind blown. I didn't know he was in anything not made by Bioware. (KOTOR 2 doesn't count, being a sequel to a Bioware game) It was an interesting arc, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shayddow Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 I agree with the smuggler NPC on Odessan. "I wish people would stay dead". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thenightvortex Posted June 22 Author Share Posted June 22 I don’t disagree with the statement of “dead characters should stay dead” but I also wish they wrote a decent story for Vaylin in the first place so there would be no need to fix anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAWUSS Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 On 6/21/2024 at 5:10 PM, Shayddow said: I agree with the smuggler NPC on Odessan. "I wish people would stay dead". Maybe an exception could be made for the Nathema cameos. That was just atrocious. But even that's still a maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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