half of the asking price as a fee to trade my item?

[GeneralGyro]

4 hours ago, Przemo_No said:

" The transfer of some high value items through mail or direct trade is subject to a credit fee based on its value, paid by the sender "

I think people misread this line.  The meaning here is that it is NOT your standard 8% tax, but another one, based on "avergaed market value" on all servers. (or any other "valuation" construction they used).

 

But whatever it is, it works, because the intention was NOT TO allow people to sell items for obscene prices. That is all.

And now we hear crying about it.

 

 

 

im not selling for obscene prices, im selling 100 projects for well under market price

 

i should not be taxed 40% on it

Edited June 18, 2023 by GeneralGyro

[microstyles]

4 hours ago, ceryxp said:

Which is why they should not have attached a tax to trades, or mail did not have credits involved, and just taxed the credits.  But apparently that would have taken work because there is currently no way to calculate tax on the credits in a trade widow or attached to a mail.  Because, by Mephistopheles, it is too much to ask that they implement a proper solution.

They do apply the fees to credit transfers. The reason they didn't only do that was if they only tax credits, then people may just barter to avoid taxes instead. 

That to me though, is a reason not to do trade fees at all. I agree with everything else you said.

[ceryxp]

10 hours ago, microstyles said:

They do apply the fees to credit transfers. The reason they didn't only do that was if they only tax credits, then people may just barter to avoid taxes instead. 

That to me though, is a reason not to do trade fees at all. I agree with everything else you said.

You are correct on the taxing credits part.  I misread a prior dev post and have struck that part from my post.  Interestingly, credits in trade are taxed at 8%.

That said, that does not change the fact that bartering should not be taxed.  Trading amongst friends, swapping one good for another, crafting for someone using their provided materials, none of these affect inflation.  None of these are the cause for the inflation we have seen.  The use of goods as de facto currencies, such as Cartel Crates and RPM's / OEM's, only became a thing after values began to exceed the credit limit.  That is a symptom of the inflation we are seeing.  The sole cause of the inflation we are seeing is BW.  Their policies, their practices, their ideology.  And now to address the matter they are lowering the quality of life of players.

Their reason is bollocks, their system if rubbish, and I can not wait until Broadsword takes over.

Yes, I do see that you agree.  I am just ranting.

[captainbladejk]

On 6/17/2023 at 5:35 PM, ceryxp said:

No, no, you misunderstand.  They are totally charging 8%, but it is not 8% of the value of the item as it is currently listed on the GTN, or 8% of however much you want to price the item at, it is 8% of whatever value they decided to attach to the item based upon a median value of all items of that type across all servers, as well as, arcane pseudo-science extracted from the aether of an Archfey's nether loins.  And since that value was based upon that particular alignment of starts, planets, and an Archfey's haemorrhoids, that 8% will not be representative of the current value of the item.  Which is why something may be selling for 200 million on the GTN but has a tax of 200 million because at the particular moment when BW looked at their database of totally real numbers the item was valued at 2.5 billion.

Yeah that isn't how that works. I read the explanation and to be perfectly blunt, it's corporate spin. They plainly said in the very first post of the economy changes thread here: https://forums.swtor.com/topic/929143-73-credit-economy-initiative-updates-and-the-gtn/
 

• Secure Trade, Mail, and Collect on Deposit will now have an associated transaction fee based on the value of the transaction. The fee is aligned to the Galactic Trade Network Commission Fee at 8%.

So either they mean 8% or they don't, there is no middle ground to this. If it's 8% of the transaction and I sell an item for 2b credits, that should be a tax of 160m. If I sell for the 2.6b roughly of that Twisted Fang Saber, then the tax would be the 212.8m credits. Anything higher in either situation is NOT what they advertised plain and simple. 

This also circles us right back to what I said before, if their goal is to lower prices, this isn't how you do it. All they're doing is guaranteeing I won't be selling the item for less than their subjective "value" of the item. Where as before I might actually be willing to cut someone like a guildy a break, or sell it for less just to make a quick sale, that's not happening now because I'm not eating a higher tax rate. All they're doing is guaranteeing prices stay high without addressing WHY they got to where they are to start with. All this foolishness does is serve 3 purposes. 1: Guarantee prices will stay high. 2: Punish for not selling items for less than what their own subjective values say they are worth. 3: Punish people for using the direct trade tool that SWTOR themselves created. 

Having the cap at 1b doesn't stop items from selling for 1b credits. All you're doing is ensuring items worth more than 1b credits never get listed on the GTN and are forced into the trade channels if people want to get the full value of their item. If they want to bring those items back onto the GTN, then the simplest solution is to raise the cap on asking price for the GTN. Let's say they raised it to 5b credits, that simply means people can ask up to 5b credits on the GTN, it doesn't mean they will get that 5b. It also opens up visibility to more of the market as now people can see if the guy in the trade channel asking 3b for an item is overpriced and scamming people, or if they're actually on target. Once they've opened up visibility in the market they need to give people sinks they want to invest in. Quick travel costs just ensure people won't use the quick travel. They also had quick travel costs in game once before and they removed them specifically because it punished new players and added nothing of value. Yet their solution is to repeat the same thing twice and expect different results, which is the literal definition of insanity.

All these taxes amount to is "do what we say or else" and do nothing but irritate the playerbase. Inflation got as high as it was/is because there are no viable sinks people want to spend credits on. You can't force people to play in a way they don't want to play. Trying to beat people over the head with taxes is just going to guarantee one of a few things is going to happen, either they don't sell things at all thus harming supply and driving prices up further, they pass the tax on to the end buyer, or worse is they quit the game.

Some easy sinks would have been the ability to duplicate decorations for your personal stronghold like they allow people to do with guild donations. Another would've been allowing folks to buy out the crafting times on items. Such as allowing folks to spend the 6 minutes or so crafting their batch of adrenals, or paying an amount of credits to have it ready that moment. Personally I would've bought the daylights out of that one. You can try to direct people however you want them to go, but you'll never be able to force them. 

I likened it to developing content for games, as I've created many a custom level for other games before. If you want players to go to a certain map, use a certain item, use a certain power, interact or not interact with a certain NPC, you as the developer have to give them that reason. If you as the creator can't give them a reason to use that item or power, can't give them a reason to go to that map, or interact/not interact with that NPC, you can't expect the players to have a reason either. Yet that's exactly what they're trying to do with these ridiculous taxes. They're blaming players for a problem they created, then using tools they created to address the problem until the actual issues could be addressed. Problem is they're not doing that, but digging their heels in and blaming "greed" or what have you. Like no dude, I'm not listing an item for 1b credits and leaving 1.6b on the table when I don't have to. If you want me to list that item on the GTN then RAISE THE CAP. 

I don't like inflation anymore than the next guy, but how they're going about trying to lower prices is only going to accomplish the exact opposite, or have no effect at all. Again this is a 12 year old game now, and they've had ample opportunity to put in more sinks to deal with inflation before now, actual sinks people want to invest in, but they didn't do it, and are now basically blaming the players for a problem they created. Economics 101 says what they're doing is a bad idea. 

 

[eabevella]

Just raise the GTN cap to 4B and you'll solve most problem.

Hypercrate is ~3B.

Lv80 token is ~2B.

Tulak Hord's lightsaber is ~2B.

Mando Nomad set is ~3B (this one was when I bought it separately on the GTN a while ago so the actual prize may be lower now).

A few "popular" items can be seen at the 1B cap on the GTN too (Twisted Fang light saber for example).

The market price is not as insane as before when a Hypercrate was 12B. Just raise the GTN cap to 4B (since BW isn't changing the credit cap a toon can carry on them) will encourage many sellers to sell their stuffs on the GTN and eat the 8% tax they are supposed to pay.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

2 hours ago, eabevella said:

Just raise the GTN cap to 4B and you'll solve most problem.

Hypercrate is ~3B.

Lv80 token is ~2B.

Tulak Hord's lightsaber is ~2B.

Mando Nomad set is ~3B (this one was when I bought it separately on the GTN a while ago so the actual prize may be lower now).

A few "popular" items can be seen at the 1B cap on the GTN too (Twisted Fang light saber for example).

The market price is not as insane as before when a Hypercrate was 12B. Just raise the GTN cap to 4B (since BW isn't changing the credit cap a toon can carry on them) will encourage many sellers to sell their stuffs on the GTN and eat the 8% tax they are supposed to pay.

I don't know crap about Economics, but I just can't see a downside to raising the cap on the GTN.

Like captainbladejk said just because someone might charge a certain amount for an item doesn't necessarily someone will buy it for that price.

4 billion does seem appropriate, as like you said, that is the cap a toon can carry.

Your suggestion seems very reasonable to me.

....

I am Grim and I support this message.

Edited June 19, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[TahliahCOH]

This doesn't hurt the poors, just sell it on the GTN. What hurts the poors is being taxed for giving stuff away for FREE to new players who need some creds for Quick Travel or a speeder or the new repair costs. One of the nice things about this community is how willing veteran players are to help out new players, be it by giving them credits or speeders or even some bronze armor we have ten of and can't sell for enough creds to bother. Getting free stuff is great because it helps new players feel better in their armors, use conveniences/unlocks, and have a spiffy speeder (or at least a spiffier one than they can get from the speeder vendors). It also builds community because people are helping people. But apparently, that's a bad thing. Giving things away for free is now taxed. THAT hurts the poors, and it hurts the game.

[ivanhedgehog]

I was trying to give a spymasters jacket and gloves to a friend that just started playing. it wanted 22 million just to give that, the stuff isnt worth 22 million to begin with. They need to just limit accounts to 4 billion max. that will end the inflation.

[mesamonster]

1 hour ago, ivanhedgehog said:

I was trying to give a spymasters jacket and gloves to a friend that just started playing. it wanted 22 million just to give that, the stuff isnt worth 22 million to begin with. They need to just limit accounts to 4 billion max. that will end the inflation.

That's not how inflation works.

[AgentMarakesh]

This is beyond dumb and I am now actively happy Bioware is giving it away.

Not sure they could get any worse with their dumb handling of this.

[Neremaro]

Interesting system... So, how than prefs and non-sub can play through GTN? Before those changes they all just can trade interesting stuff and earn for that what they need.
NOW, even if we do not mention other inconvenient limitation, they must to use GTN, when they have 1 mil cred limit... 

So, that new system working for subscribers only? Don't u think, that ppl with those circumstances just leave SWTOR?

[Balameb]

On 6/17/2023 at 8:23 PM, DawnAskham said:

LMAO if this idiotic trade tax requires a patch to update item values.

So whatever imaginary values they assign to items will be stuck with us for months on end.

Every time I think Bioware can't be this dumb, they prove me wrong.

As much as i like them trying to fix the tax loophole. I have to agree that requiring a manual patch to update the values is idiotic.

I'm of those that don't mind paying 8% fee on gifting crafting augs, credits, or same valuables like cartel packs. But as long as it is 8% of relative current value. Idealy updated daily and i can work with weekly. As prices are going down (and they are), then fee should go too automatically. Waiting for the Devs to notice an increasing gap is a gamble, they make a patch and we will get the typical "Sadly we did not have time to update the value with today's patch, we will try in the next one."

[Rol_Khavos]

The real fallacy of this solution to the GTN inflation (which is at the core of the problem they were supposedly trying to fix) is that it doesn't affect what the problem is.  Charge a tax on an item fifty percent of its going price on the GTN?  Then all I will do as a seller is -add- that amount to my asking price to cover my expenses.  That pushes prices even higher, not lower.  Charge a tax on players trading to make a profit?  Again, they just raise their prices to compensate, and the buyer has to cover the extra cost.  The end result is far higher prices with the sellers pretty much unaffected and the market paying the extra to obtain what they want, which is exactly how it was before the new system was put in place.

 

What it does affect are generous players who either helped their friends or new players by gifting them items they had no means of obtaining themselves for no credits asked.  That was a cost entirely borne by the initial purchaser, with no financial return to them.  Now, they must pay for their generosity in an out-of-scale way that simply makes it impossible to help others in this way.  The GTN cannot be used for this, as the intent by the giver is to provide it to a specific person for no credits asked, not the general playerbase of the game.

 

If BW wanted to actually correct the issue, then they could have just as easily set a top limit on each item's selling price on the GTN, which would have required about the same work as this, and reduce credit payouts from missions across the board.  Or, institute the tax rate on the price -asked-, with the higher the price, the more the seller pays.  With the quicktravel and regular travel costs being enforced by the requirement to travel to play the game, that would have either stabilized things or gradually drawn down the credit supply in the game.  All BW has done here is eliminate the generosity of those players who want to help their friends or new players they may not even know.

 

There is a reason SWTOR has a reputation among gaming circles as the most mercenary and money-is-all-we-are-interested-in games in the MMORPG world, and this just cements it more.

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Rol_Khavos