1. There is nothing wrong with the economy; 2. To change it you must control the exchange rate

[StrikePrice]

10 hours ago, tattoohero said:

I'm a returning player, one who was gone for a very long time.  I came backing have a few million credits and when I left I could afford things on GTN, now it's a pipe dream unless I buy something off the cartel market and sell it on the GTN which I've never done before.

Spend money or time. It's an MMO. Given time, you can get anything you want. Given money, you can get anything you want immediately. You just can't have both. Sorry, it's an MMO. That's the way it works.

[StrikePrice]

On 4/8/2023 at 11:31 AM, xxSHOONYxx said:

First 1.5b is pocket change right now, and second why would someone new spend 10 usd for a dye when they can get it for like 3-4 dollars? Too many credits were made already to the point it has no value so people stock up on items and some illegal places sell everything that is on the gtn for much cheaper than on the CM. It came to the point that saving on credits is just horrible. Letting the inflation keep growing will only help credit sellers and those webpages.

There is no inflation. The exchange rate of USD to CC has been constant forever. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by StrikePrice

[StrikePrice]

On 4/8/2023 at 9:17 AM, FlatTax said:

I agree it's not a charity, and don't have a problem with the subscription.

Anything other than cosmetic-only monetization beyond the sub, however, is a problem.

Monetized game-affecting grinds, above and beyond the sub, function like paywalls: you accrue a benefit after the cash transaction which you didn't have before. The fact a 'free' path technically exists is of no matter. It's tuned to *not* be enjoyable, and drive P2W sales.

It's anti-consumer exploitation.

There is no pay to win in this game. Only pay to catch up and it will only catch you up so far. You cannot get top gear by spending money.

You can get 324 gear with gold augs (if you want lol) by spending money, that's it. The rest you have to earn. All that does it catch you up to a new 80. It's not pay to win. 

[StrikePrice]

On 4/8/2023 at 10:15 AM, VegaMist said:

The free path doesn't "technically exist" - it exists. If you find it "not enjoyable" - that's on you. Crafting used to play a much bigger role in swtor economy back in the day and it doesn't need to be crippled even further. Augments are some of the last items people need that are made by players - not by EA. We need more items like that for the economy to heal - not less.

This is correct. Plus, all you need to do is spend frags on crating materials and you can make BILLIONS without paying a dollar of USD other than a sub. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by StrikePrice

[SteveTheCynic]

4 hours ago, DWho said:

Game economies should function based on what players can earn playing the game not a player to player trade system.

This statement is very far from correct.  The "economy" *is* the player-to-player trade system.  (If there wasn't any way to trade between players(1), there wouldn't even *be* anything we'd recognise as an economy.)

(1) GTN, auction house(2), direct trade, COD mail, etc.

(2) Yes, I'm well aware that SWTOR doesn't have an auction house in the eBay-like sense that's normally meant by the term.

[StrikePrice]

6 hours ago, remylion said:

or spend time gathering crafting materials and sell them. There are rank 1-9 crafting materials that go for 200,000-350,000 each. You have to search the GTN and keep track of materials but you can make billions buying and reselling crafting materials if you track them properly.

I've been at this game for a little over a month and I am close to hitting 6 billion buying and reselling items I find on the GTN.

This is correct. You can catch up in credits just by being smart and playing the game. 

[DWho]

9 minutes ago, StrikePrice said:

Completely wrong. 

You can get everything in the game you need without spending 1 penny. You're just lazy.

You're the one who is totally wrong. When the game came out (and for many years after) it was not required to pay real money for something to sell on the GTN in order to buy things as simple as unlocks now those sell for more than a preferred or f2p player can even hold on their characters. It's not about needs it's about wants. There is no feasible way to obtain billions of credits without buying them from credit sellers, using exploits, or flipping items on the GTN.

It's typical of the people who got ahead by whatever means (mostly nefarious) to say others are lazy when they were the one who bought their way to the position they are in now.

[DWho]

3 minutes ago, StrikePrice said:

This is correct. You can catch up in credits just by being smart and playing the game. 

By playing the GTN, not the game.

[DWho]

5 minutes ago, SteveTheCynic said:

This statement is very far from correct.  The "economy" *is* the player-to-player trade system.  (If there wasn't any way to trade between players(1), there wouldn't even *be* anything we'd recognise as an economy.)

(1) GTN, auction house(2), direct trade, COD mail, etc.

(2) Yes, I'm well aware that SWTOR doesn't have an auction house in the eBay-like sense that's normally meant by the term.

I disagree. When it is all but required to pay cash for credits (whether directly to credit sellers or indirectly to them via player to player trades) the economy is broken. No one can gain enough credits by playing the game (flipping items on the GTN isn't playing the game which is an RPG-MMO not a trading simulator)

[StrikePrice]

3 minutes ago, DWho said:

You're the one who is totally wrong. When the game came out (and for many years after) it was not required to pay real money for something to sell on the GTN in order to buy things as simple as unlocks now those sell for more than a preferred or f2p player can even hold on their characters. It's not about needs it's about wants. There is no feasible way to obtain billions of credits without buying them from credit sellers, using exploits, or flipping items on the GTN.

It's typical of the people who got ahead by whatever means (mostly nefarious) to say others are lazy when they were the one who bought their way to the position they are in now.

Yes, you want everything without paying anything. I understand the entitled mentality perfectly. Sorry, it's a game. Pay for it. And, FYI, when the "game came out" there was no f2p option. That was offered years later. 

[StrikePrice]

1 minute ago, DWho said:

I disagree. When it is all but required to pay cash for credits (whether directly to credit sellers or indirectly to them via player to player trades) the economy is broken. No one can gain enough credits by playing the game (flipping items on the GTN isn't playing the game which is an RPG-MMO not a trading simulator)

False. There is nothing you need on the GTN to play the game. You can't seem to distinguish between want and need. 

[DWho]

Just now, StrikePrice said:

Yes, you want everything without paying anything. I understand the entitled mentality perfectly. Sorry, it's a game. Pay for it. And, FYI, when the "game came out" there was no f2p option. That was offered years later. 

Right. Lets just reset the game economy back to year one and listen to people like you cry that Bioware "stole" all your credits (which aren't real anyway)

[DWho]

1 minute ago, StrikePrice said:

False. There is nothing you need on the GTN to play the game. You can't seem to distinguish between want and need. 

The player to player trade economy has nothing to do with need. That is the problem you are having trouble understanding

[StrikePrice]

1 minute ago, DWho said:

Right. Lets just reset the game economy back to year one and listen to people like you cry that Bioware "stole" all your credits (which aren't real anyway)

What MMO would accept an economy reset? WoW? Eve Online? Any that you know of? You're just spouting nonsense now. 

Plus, I can't lose the things in game that I have. I spend real money on the game. And thus, have no need for credits. 

[StrikePrice]

1 minute ago, DWho said:

The player to player trade economy has nothing to do with need. That is the problem you are having trouble understanding

Which has nothing to do with playing the game. It's all cosmetic. If you want features, pay for them. Sorry. You're not special. 

[SteveTheCynic]

1 hour ago, StrikePrice said:

And, FYI, when the "game came out" there was no f2p option. That was offered years later. 

It wasn't *years* later.  In fact, it wasn't even *one* year later.  The game launched in December 2011, and Free2Play arrived in November 2012, only eleven months later, patch 1.5.0.  HK-51 Activated | Star Wars: The Old Republic (swtor.com)

Edited April 10, 2023 by SteveTheCynic
can't spell "November 2012" correctly...

[DWho]

2 minutes ago, StrikePrice said:

What MMO would accept an economy reset? WoW? Eve Online? Any that you know of? You're just spouting nonsense now. 

Plus, I can't lose the things in game that I have. I spend real money on the game. And thus, have no need for credits. 

I've got a better idea that a reset then. All player to player trades are taxed based on the value of items traded whether done through the GTN or through "private trades". bronze cartel items have a "value" of 50K, silver ones 100K, gold ones 1 million, platinum 10 million, and hypercrates 100 million. Then a 10% transaction fee is charged for any trade not done through the GTN. That will bring things under control, drain credits from the game, and bring down prices.

[Balameb]

4 minutes ago, StrikePrice said:

There is no inflation. The exchange rate of USD to CC has been constant forever. 

Looking just at exchange rates is a kind of too limted view of what inflation is/isn't.

While exchange rates to USD are usually an indicator for foreing economies that needs to be considered while working on controlling inflation, it usually is a value that chages after the actual inflation is present. I mean, is very normal for a country suffering inflation for some time to gets prices increased before the exchange rate is updated.

In terms of game, CM economy is like you said fixed as BW can control at will and keep it steady. The problem comes with what you can get get in game (GTN/PtP Trade) by spending the same amount.

In 5.X with a single cartel pack you could get enough credits to get TWO sets (28 augments) of purple augments and even get spare change. One cartel pack: 200cc

How many curent purple augments can you get by doing the same exchange? 

 

Value of CCs to obtain gear have decreased by several order of magnitude for years. So you need more CCs or USD to get the current equivalent.

 

Ergo: Game economy does have inflation.

[remylion]

24 minutes ago, DWho said:

I've got a better idea that a reset then. All player to player trades are taxed based on the value of items traded whether done through the GTN or through "private trades". bronze cartel items have a "value" of 50K, silver ones 100K, gold ones 1 million, platinum 10 million, and hypercrates 100 million. Then a 10% transaction fee is charged for any trade not done through the GTN. That will bring things under control, drain credits from the game, and bring down prices.

or just a flat tax like the GTN. Because you know what will happen if you tax based on armor quality? You are going to buy this bronze set from me for the price of this platinum set then I'm going to trade you the platinum set for 1 credit.

You do not need to create different tax brackets for higher trades. Percentages are amazing because 8% of 100 is 8% and 8% of 20 billion is still 8%.

if a system is overly complicated, people will find a way around it.

[DWho]

9 minutes ago, remylion said:

or just a flat tax like the GTN. Because you know what will happen if you tax based on armor quality? You are going to buy this bronze set from me for the price of this platinum set then I'm going to trade you the platinum set for 1 credit.

You do not need to create different tax brackets for higher trades. Percentages are amazing because 8% of 100 is 8% and 8% of 20 billion is still 8%.

if a system is overly complicated, people will find a way around it.

What I suggested is a flat tax of 10%. The "values" are only to determine the amount that is to be taxed (and are just examples). So in your case, whether you trade the platinum item for 1 credit or not (unless you use the GTN to do so) would still cost 1 million credits to complete the transaction.

Edited April 10, 2023 by DWho

[StrikePrice]

3 hours ago, Balameb said:

In 5.X with a single cartel pack you could get enough credits to get TWO sets (28 augments) of purple augments and even get spare change. One cartel pack: 200cc

I don't have that recollection, so I can't dispute you on that point. Others will have to come along and dispute or confirm. But, since 2017, there has been substantial inflation in USD, so you would need to use inflation adjusted dollars form 2017 to validate your point and not 2023 dollars. Further, there has been massive inflation in the cost of video games since then, so you might judge it by that level of inflation. But now we're comparing real inflation to in game inflation which is a fair comparison, but not so clear cut.

Not exactly to your point, but I think it's worth mentioning that simply by playing the game, you can get a full set of purple augs quite easily (if you're a sub).

On the GTN, currently, the cost of a Advanced Critical 77 is < 50m, the sale value of an RMP-13 is > 100m. So, the net cost of a purple aug is ~2000 frags. Basically two runs of KP SM which you can do with 324 gear in < 1 hour.  One can get a full set of 14  augs in less than a day of grinding KP. Not to mention that you can easily craft them using Jawa Junk if you've been playing the game for any appreciable amount of time. 

There's nothing really in the game save for premium cosmetics that cannot be attained by playing the game. Even gold augs are attainable if you're in a decent guild that runs a lot of ops and you put a little time into crafting. 

[StrikePrice]

4 hours ago, SteveTheCynic said:

It wasn't *years* later.  In fact, it wasn't even *one* year later.  The game launched in December 2011, and Free2Play arrived in November 2012, only eleven months later, patch 1.5.0.  HK-51 Activated | Star Wars: The Old Republic (swtor.com)

I stand corrected. I guess it only felt like years.

Edited April 10, 2023 by StrikePrice

[StrikePrice]

Oh and I should mention that subs can get 600 CC per month of subscription. So after only two month of subbing, you have enough CC to make ~1.5b in credits. More than you would ever need for anything in the game other than cosmetics of value higher than 1200 CC.

That's $30 US. The new harry potter game is $80 for the deluxe edition. You're getting in for half the cost of a normal game. If you were to pay that for swtor, you would get 180 days or 6 months. That would be 3600 CC worth roughly ~4.5bn in credits.

This is really a discussion of people who want something without paying for it or earning it. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by StrikePrice

[DWho]

2 hours ago, StrikePrice said:

Oh and I should mention that subs can get 600 CC per month of subscription. So after only two month of subbing, you have enough CC to make ~1.5b in credits. More than you would ever need for anything in the game other than cosmetics of value higher than 1200 CC.

That's $30 US. The new harry potter game is $80 for the deluxe edition. You're getting in for half the cost of a normal game. If you were to pay that for swtor, you would get 180 days or 6 months. That would be 3600 CC worth roughly ~4.5bn in credits.

This is really a discussion of people who want something without paying for it or earning it. 

So what you are saying is that subs don't need credits (they can generate as many as they want from their free CCs as needed). Then we could lower the account cap on credits (to 5 or 10 billion) and move everything over that to an escrow account that you can draw out of by spending CCs (whatever the escrow unlock was in CCs to withdraw 10 billion which if not used up in 48 hours goes back to escrow). I like that idea, let's go with it. That will lower prices because you'll have to decide how many CCs that 50 billion credit item is worth to you.

 

I'm only being a little sarcastic. It could work to lower the number of "working" credits in the economy without taking any away from anyone. It should cut down on any single player's ability to buy out the entire stock of an item and listing it for a crazy price.

Edited April 11, 2023 by DWho

[Balameb]

1 hour ago, DWho said:

So what you are saying is that subs don't need credits (they can generate as many as they want from their free CCs as needed). Then we could lower the account cap on credits (to 5 or 10 billion) and move everything over that to an escrow account that you can draw out of by spending CCs (whatever the escrow unlock was in CCs to withdraw 10 billion which if not used up in 48 hours goes back to escrow). I like that idea, let's go with it. That will lower prices because you'll have to decide how many CCs that 50 billion credit item is worth to you.

 

I'm only being a little sarcastic. It could work to lower the number of "working" credits in the economy without taking any away from anyone. It should cut down on any single player's ability to buy out the entire stock of an item and listing it for a crazy price.

I was about to say that BW could not do that because it would be like asking for ransom on your already earned credits. F2p/preferred knows it before had, but doing it for subs is a change of rules...then i realized BW has just done something similar asking for extra credits for what we already paid before (some with CCs even) 😅

I know you were being sarcastic, still way better idea that anything BW could come up with.