Totemdancer Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 Oookay... If the effect is this severe, why do you or your friend put up with this? If I know riding a bike will hurt my back so I have backpain for days after this, I will certainly not go out and ride a bike... No one forces people to play this game. Why not take a break till its fixed? Edit: that is me taking this serious. It is (would be) really easy to take "anecdotal evidence" for what it is: hear-say. Some people heard of people having issues and suddenly developing the same issues or having friends with the same issues, because it is suddenly vogue to sue the company providing an OPTIONAL hobby. The sensible thing is just this: Doing something that hurts oneself deliberatly is not the fault of the person providing the thing that hurts oneself. I do not know if there are the standard warningsdisclaimer for migraine/seizures before starting SWToR, but they may even have this covered. Let me answer quiet simply. There was no warning or expectation that a game she plays daily would all of a sudden start causing her migraines after the update. So she played for a few hours, her eyes hurt and she got a headache that kept getting worse. She logged off and a few hours later had full blown migraine that lasted 2 days, 1 tablet ($40) and 2 injections to stop her throwing up from the pain and 2 unpaid days off work Now at first we didn’t put 2 and 2 together that it was the game because she has a migraine history, but never from playing swtor. It wasn’t until I started getting headaches from playing that I started to suspect. She tried playing the game again for 10 mins to see how her eyes felt. Soon after she started to get a headache and logged off. Then another Migraine started, but thankfully her medication was enough to control it that time. It’s obvious that the UI changes are to blame. I myself have poor eyes and wear glasses. I can’t even read some of the stuff in the game anymore since the font was changed in the expansion. My eyes are constantly straining to see and it gives me a headache. So I’ve not been logging in or playing because of it. There are obviously other players like my friend and myself who can no longer play the game because of these changes. But we’ve prepaid subscriptions and some have paid for cartel coins or have 1000’s of hours and money invested in this game that we can no longer play. But if I or anyone else asks BioWare for a refund, they will lock us out of every EA account linked to that email or account. And we lose any further access to this game even if BioWare fixes the UI. The problem is BioWare are AFK on this problem and aren’t even responding to players concerns. That is really giving us the *********** ***** because we paid to play a game that we can’t. And it seems like we have no recourse to get our money back without repercussions from EA. At the same time BioWare are ignoring the problem and hopes it and us go away. Tell me, how fair do you think it is that we paid and can’t play. How would you feel if BioWare took your money for 6 month sub and then turned off the servers. That’s basically the situation some of us are in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totemdancer Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 Lots of class actions get started. Many of them get shut down before they actually go anywhere, though. Most people like to talk about class actions but have never participated in one and have very little idea of how they work; which is why many get started but a massively higher number go nowhere. The content of the class action -- in terms of why it got started -- is irrelevant. What matters is if it's allowed to continue. The judgement to allow a class action to proceed is always based on four probative questions. * How many people are affected? * Do the class members share common questions of law and fact? * Are the plaintiff's legal claims typical of all class members? * Is the potential class adequately represented? The second point is important because it means that the class members must all have suffered the same injury. The third point is equally important because it means that the people bringing the lawsuit should have claims and injuries that are typical of all potential class members. If the idea is to pursue non-economic damages, then you have to show the toll the injury took on everyone's health. This will usually come down to disability (physical and/or mental capacity has diminished because of the injury) or pain and suffering (injuries were physically painful and, in addition, the pain and/or the injury itself has caused emotional anguish). Now remember my two points from above: a class action means the above points have to be distributed among the class as common injuries. If people are going for economic damages, then you have to show medical costs, meaning as a class, the injury required (or will require) treatment or medical care. Or, as a class, the injury affected people's ability to do their job on a temporary basis. ("My eyes got hurt so bad I couldn't stare at monitors anymore.") And, again, all of this has to be as a class. I'm not coming down on one side of the fence here or the other -- although it's pretty obvious how any such "class action lawsuit" in this context would go -- and I certainly don't want to diminish those who have felt like they've had problems with the interface. I'm solely speaking to the viability of the oft-touted, oft-threatened -- but oft-unsuccessful -- class action lawsuit. No one wants to start a class action. We just want to be able to play the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muckbeast Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 The virtually invisible borders on the Combat Style skill trees which make it damn near impossible to see which one you've selected and the black, soulless voids that are the new inventory slots are just two that come top of mind with a slew of others. Those are definitely 2 of the glaring offenders. The UI looks placeholder. It is so weird because the "old" UI was excellent. They really need to at least tell everyone they are going to fix this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totemdancer Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 Those are definitely 2 of the glaring offenders. The UI looks placeholder. It is so weird because the "old" UI was excellent. They really need to at least tell everyone they are going to fix this. Or at worst say they aren’t going to fix it and offer refunds to players who can’t play because of the changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaraNebesna Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 But if I or anyone else asks BioWare for a refund, they will lock us out of every EA account linked to that email or account. And we lose any further access to this game even if BioWare fixes the UI. Wait, you get banned for a refund???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calidge Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 Vote with your wallet or stop complaining. Sorry, no offense, that's just the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryptonomic Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 No one wants to start a class action. We just want to be able to play the game. I was more responding to what you said here: I can see a class action happening in the US if they don’t. And here: I’ve seen people launch class actions for less. I agree that no one should want a class action since it would go nowhere. And yet someone always brings one up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totemdancer Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 (edited) Wait, you get banned for a refund???? Yes, for demanding one or getting your credit card company to do a charge back if EA says no. It’s well documented that EA close all your accounts to any game or account linked to a charge back or refund demand. That could include other EA games you’re currently playing too. Edited February 22, 2022 by Totemdancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totemdancer Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 I was more responding to what you said here: And here: I agree that no one should want a class action since it would go nowhere. And yet someone always brings one up. People bring it up sometimes because the threat alone is enough to make some legal departments make their companies take **** seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JojoKasei Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 (edited) Those are definitely 2 of the glaring offenders. The UI looks placeholder. It is so weird because the "old" UI was excellent. They really need to at least tell everyone they are going to fix this. Agreed, out of all the MMOs that I ever played it was the UI that I liked most. Sure, would not have fit in every game for thematic reasons, but all in all I liked it best. Smooth, marginally transparent, illusion of being more plastic than it really was. A bit like the Win 7 default, still miss that. The only change to UI I could have embraced would have been making the alignment change the color: light grey (white would not be ideal) for neutral, blue for light, red for dark; colors becoming more pronounced with every alignment tier. Edited February 22, 2022 by JojoKasei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnEaKyMan Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 It is only subjectively "disastrous" and this talk about class-action-lawsuits is really bonkers. Yes, it is (seems to) affecting players with medical issues and these certain aspects should be fixed in future. But the overall reaction and the mindless hate on the the whole UI thing is IMHO really blown out of proportion. If you have no other problems then hating on UI changes on some online game about space-wizards, consider yourself lucky. Though I mostly agree with you. The new UI is not "subjectively" worse. It is objectively worse and that's just a fact. The UX is extremely terrible in comparison the previous. The functionality is worse, even if it might be "subjectively" worse. You now need to do more actions in order to see your stats...on the character profile. They are now hidden away in a tiny box that you then need to scroll through to actually see your stats. Previously you just opened up the sheet and you could see them without needing to scroll... The new UI also takes up far too much of the screen now adding the inventory into the mix when previously and in pretty much any MMO the Inventory and Character screens are usually separated, probably for the very reason we're now experiencing. People saying it's taking up too much of the screen and they cant keep it open while doing other things etc. Lastly, the guy isn't moaning about SWTOR on some Save the Elephants Website, he's in the right place doing it and I would encourage people to give the negative feedback, in a constructive way if possible obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Kaitou-Kid Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 (edited) Probably not, no. They'll respond to easy questions/concerns or bug reports, but anything else is crickets. This is what happened on the PTS after they started getting more heavy criticism. We went from them rounding up the feedback and responding to it with explanations and insight for Guardians, to doing a small roundup of common feedback points for Sentinels with no insights or explanations other than "We know you have complaints" (which they promptly ignored), to no posts of substance for 4 months for any of the other classes. No responses to the criticism, no guidance for their goals with that specific class and why they made certain decisions, they just spat the classes out on the PTS and silently made changes to give the illusion of engagement. It shouldn't be surprising that they're doing the same thing here. They're either too embarrassed about the state the expansion launched in to come on here and try to talk about it candidly, or they're so arrogant that they feel this will all blow over and everything's fine. Either way, I don't see any responses coming any time soon. I'd love to be wrong, but again (and I'm sorry to keep harping on this, but I'll do it until they say something), they won't even respond to a bug that was swapping characters to the opposite faction and changing their base class. If that kind of bug didn't motivate a response from somebody on Bioware's team during the last week, I can't imagine what would. At this point, they have no shame. Edited February 22, 2022 by The-Kaitou-Kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryptonomic Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 People bring it up sometimes because the threat alone is enough to make some legal departments make their companies take **** seriously. The "threat" -- if such it is -- is very rarely enough to make legal departments stand up and take notice. All you have to do is look at the number of class action lawsuits that are filed and the relative few that actually go anywhere. The only threat that matters is to actually file one; not people vaguely talking about filing one. That's why I posted what I posted: so people who think they know how class actions are viewed by companies would actually have some idea about how they're actually viewed. Everything is viewed through the lens of those four questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshuadyal Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 The over the top drama of saying that the UI is "disastrous" and is like looking at Medusa doesn't do much to make you look like someone with a complaint to take seriously, honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryptonomic Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 Though I mostly agree with you. The new UI is not "subjectively" worse. It is objectively worse and that's just a fact. Objectively means "not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts." Obviously that's not the case here in people's viewpoints, which are going to be subjective. What we can say -- truly objectively -- is that the UI is different. Whether that difference is better or worse is going to be subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpenedstick Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 Objectively means "not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts." Obviously that's not the case here in people's viewpoints, which are going to be subjective. What we can say -- truly objectively -- is that the UI is different. Whether that difference is better or worse is going to be subjective. Wrong, we can objectively say the UI is worse. It fails to communicate as much information as the old UI in the same amount of time. Take for instance the abilities menu (P). It is objectively worse. With the tabs, you could see all the options at once, rather than the current drop down bar that doesn't even have sufficient capacity to show everything, requiring you to scroll. Additionally, taking that same menu again, switching categories takes more time because the drop down menu is slower than the tab listing. The simple fact is that changes of these kinds need to be justified by significant advantages to offset the loss of familiarity. The fact that the current UI is just objectively worse makes this a self-inflicted disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virchaw Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 (edited) Don't be ridiculous. There's a lot of "literally hurts my eyes" blither, but all I can say to that is that if it is actually causing physical injury, y'all should be seeing doctors about it rather than blithering on the forums. Heck, it's way less bright than, say, a blank page on your word processor, which is full white across the whole screen, and we don't hear people complaining about that.. For anyone else with as little understanding of migraines let me provide an education. Doctors are quite poor at determining the cause of migraines, poorer yet at preventing them and poorer still at providing medication that alleviates them. The last medication I got for migraines actually left me feeling worse afterward. In general sufferers tend to self-diagnosis their triggers and the best remedy is to avoid those conditions. And no, we do not look at blank pages on a word processor. I run in Dark Mode - pages are black with white text. My co-workers understand and create spreadsheets with a colored background so as not to stress my eyes. In that respect, they are more accommodating than Bioware! I cancelled my sub earlier this week. But with only 10% of the population suffering from migraines I doubt our numbers are sufficient to influence Bioware. Edited February 22, 2022 by Virchaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnEaKyMan Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 For anyone else with as little understanding of migraines let me provide an education. Doctors are quite poor at determining the cause of migraines, poorer yet at preventing them and poorer still at providing medication that alleviates them. The last medication I got for migraines actually left me feeling worse afterward. In general sufferers tend to self-diagnosis their triggers and the best remedy is to avoid those conditions. And no, we do not look at blank pages on a word processor. I run in Dark Mode - pages are black with white text. My co-workers understand and create spreadsheets with a colored background so as not to stress my eyes. In that respect, they are more accommodating than Bioware! I cancelled my sub earlier this week. But with only 10% of the population suffering from migraines I doubt our numbers are sufficient to influence Bioware. People who never had migraines in their entire life have started to get migraines with this new UI. I think that is enough evidence of how bad it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediBoadicea Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 (edited) Don't be ridiculous. There's a lot of "literally hurts my eyes" blither, but all I can say to that is that if it is actually causing physical injury, y'all should be seeing doctors about it rather than blithering on the forums. Heck, it's way less bright than, say, a blank page on your word processor, which is full white across the whole screen, and we don't hear people complaining about that. I understand wanting to push back against forum hyperbole, because it's pretty awful. But allow me to say, more respectfully than perhaps is warranted by the tone your post here strikes, that it sounds like you are lacking knowledge on the subject you're speaking about. Do you tell people with a serious food allergy to see a mental health therapist about their anxiety and just continue to eat the food they're allergic to? Because as ridiculous as that comparison sounds, it's pretty much what you're telling someone who suffers from ocular migraines or many other type of headaches (such as occipital neuralgia) or astigmatisms to do. You are effectively suggesting that those people go to an "expert" who has zero power to change the trigger in question in order to keep playing the game. Which, of course, will not in fact help them to continue playing the game at all, because no one's doctor can make Bioware change the UI, and modern medicine still does not know how to cure flipping migraines. Which someone familiar with migraines would already know. People have posted in many of the other topics on this issue with much more informative posts than I can offer. They've spoken to the specifics of UI design, the physiology of the human eye and the mechanics of human sight, color theory, and many other things. There are very specific reasons why this UI design, specifically in the inventory window, is causing people trouble. This is not about "oh noes it's different from what I'm used to and I cannot cope with change!" I too get very frustrated with the almost hypochondriac tone you can get out of people complaining about their maladies on the internet. We can't definitively parse truth from exaggeration (and there is a lot of exaggeration) on these forums any more than we can anywhere else where people can post truth or lies or sympathy-seeking rambles freely. So, forced as we are to take the complaints at face value, it's only right to note that people are claiming serious negative side effects to this change. And here's my sticking point: The change to the UI that is causing this trouble is cosmetic, and it wasn't addressing anything that was actually broken. It's not going to impact game mechanics. Changing it back to something more similar to the previous visual design (rounded corners, textured background, different border color, adjusting the black space to prevent optical illusion, all sorts of things) won't affect those who aren't negatively impacted in the slightest way whatsoever. But it will help people who can no longer comfortably engage with the interface, and who may be prevented from playing the game because of it. Not because they don't like the game, not because they don't want to play, but because they now can't. If you are not a migraine sufferer whose migraines can be triggered by visual triggers, I am happy for you, and you should count yourself fortunate. But if you aren't, then I respectfully request that you understand that you do not have the experience required to dismiss the claims people are making as invalid. A migraine can be triggered in a matter of a few minutes, sometimes even far less. Depending on how severe the person's susceptibility to migraines is, it can sincerely take days to fully recover. We learn to work very hard to avoid things that might trigger a migraine, but we can't control our environment at all times. And in fact no, the current UI design is not at all the same as a blank page on your word processor. A blank page on my word processor does not create optical illusions, for one (even people who won't have a headache triggered by it can report seeing those phantom dots at the intersections of the inventory boxes). It is not about brightness alone. If anyone actually cares enough about the question to pass judgements, then I should hope they are also actually reading the posts they are disparaging. If they were, then they might have seen the many posts where people were explaining the elements that are at fault. I do hope Bioware considers adjusting the inventory UI. As I've said elsewhere, I don't care if they changed up menus, I don't care if they changed the grid shape, I don't care if they made things different from what I'm used to. All of those things, I can get used to all over again with the simple passage of time. But I can now no longer actually use the inventory screen without risking a migraine, not even for short periods of time, and inventory management - in a game where the need for two separate cargo holds with six tabs each in it was recognized - is not something people spend only a "short period of time" on. They could leave all of the new menus just as is (including inventory where it's now connected to the character screen) and I personally wouldn't care, as long as they revert just the stand-alone inventory and cargo holds. Anyway, that is my hope. Others will disagree. But if they're disagreeing just because they don't want to believe those of us who are reporting a different experience than they are, then I would ask them to recognize their own good fortune rather than trying to say the rest of us are crazy. Edited February 23, 2022 by JediBoadicea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totemdancer Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 It might help BioWare if we try to explain what parts of the UI are causing the physical problems for people. Not wether we like the design aesthetically or it’s functions. If we could get a list of the things in the UI causing the problems from everyone, then I or someone else can make a condensed list of the problems we think are causing the physical effects for some of us. My personal problems are with the Font type change through most of the game. Which goes beyond the other UI changes. I can no longer read my characters class type on the login screen. I’ve also had to increase the size of the txt in the chat from 14 to 16. In other parts of UI I can’t read descriptions of items and abilities clearly anymore. The inventory squares being highlighted when empty and the black spaces between leaves a ghosting image on my vision even after I’ve closed the inventory and cargo screens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregordunbar Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 It's been a week now For you. It was on the PTS for MONTHS. They do not care what players think, they have not listened or care for years, they are not going to start now. Do what many have done. Unsub if you are and just let the game die because the devs are not going to change a thing back to what it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wintermood Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 (edited) Yes, for demanding one or getting your credit card company to do a charge back if EA says no. It’s well documented that EA close all your accounts to any game or account linked to a charge back or refund demand. That could include other EA games you’re currently playing too. Obviously. The service provider will shut down an account if it is not paid or charged back. That has nothing to do with malpractice, that is practice everywhere. If you want to charge back you need a backed claim. Just saying "I have the right to do so, because reasons" does not make it true. Bioware will also not close the account on "refund demanded" only on "charge back", which is fraud in the eye of the service provider (you want to use the product, but not pay for it). If you do NOT want to use the product, you can cancel the account, then you are also not paying and you take the legit way to "vote with your wallet". This line of "argumentation" sprinkled in between legit claims is part of the issue that makes seeing your posts as troll posts easy. You claim to know a person that seems to be getting migraine from playing the game. That seems to be a real issue. And then you HAVE to prove, that bioware is some awful company by framing standard industry practice as mapractice or somesuch. Let me explain: "Yesterday I went to McDonalds and bought a coffee. But they overheat the beverage as of late, without telling someone, so I got 3rd degree burns on my hands. I then did not pay for the coffee (because of the injury) and they had the gall to not let me leave? They even called the police?" Edit: since it seems to be /whooshing over some heads. In the above example "I" did not pay for services rendered, so the store is in its right to keep "me" from leaving. Simply stating "I do not need to pay, because I burned myself on your coffee" in the store, does not make the claim in itself right. Yes, I could afterwards make my damages heard, but without "backup" I have no right to just refuse payment. That also would be true for the case of the diabetic, even if bringing this up as an example is overly dramatic. Keep the argumentation to the original point and it is worth discussing, but tin-foil conspiracies help no one. Edited February 23, 2022 by Wintermood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eabevella Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 It's like telling a diabetic person who is being upset because this cafe that used to serve sugar-free coke served them a regular coke without telling them so that they had to get an emergency insulin shot after they drank it "lol u whiner just deal with it I can drink 2L of coke in one go they're not going to change the menu back". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amon_Ray Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 This expansion is the end of this game. It's shallow and empty (there is no "story" on Manaan and Elom, it's just a buggy copypast) and as disgustingly looking as a Death itself (yeah, that is about UI changes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midianlord Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 (edited) BioWare is institutionally incapable of even conceiving, let alone acknowledging that anything they do is in any way/shape/form less than completely perfect. This has been the case right from the beginning of this game's life, and it informs pretty much everything that's always been wrong with it. (And most BW games since 2013-ish, the Anthem consumer-fraud débacle being the most recent and egregious example.) Look up Jason Schrier's Kotaku articles about "BioWare Magic", and you should get a good understanding of why. Sorry son, but this is it. This is all it'll ever be. This is all you'll ever get from BW, so might as well try to make a feast of this dog's breakfast and find what enjoyment you can in it. Edited February 23, 2022 by midianlord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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