7.0 Gear doesn’t add up

[MASTERDMANISEPIC]

*cracks knuckles* Oh boy, where do I start…

 

As someone that’s deeply invested in stat optimization in this game, I’ve reached a point of concern with gear in 7.0. I’m not complaining about anything regarding acquiring the pieces, just the stats in the pieces themselves. The main concern here is that the gear we will be provided in 7.0, both easily available on the PTS as well as datamined pieces, will not provide enough relevant stats to optimize our gear in the new expansion.

 

I’m going to use dps classes as an example. If people don’t know, this is an example of what a full 330 set of Rakata gear will provide us stat wise (using Force-Lord as an example):

 

Head: 554 Alacrity

Chest: 500 Crit

Gloves: 554 Accuracy

Pants: 500 Crit

Boots: 554 Accuracy

Implants/Earpiece: 554 fill-in-the-blank tertiary stat.

 

The Devs already confirmed to us that there will be no new augments or stims introduced in the new expansion initially, if at all. So we can assume our 300 augments with 130 tertiary in them and our accuracy stims with 264 accuracy and 109 Crit will just be what we get for a while. This gives us a total tertiary stat pool (including stim and crystals) of 7707 for 330 gear.

 

I have derived the stat formulas for level 80 myself, although I’m sure it was figured out by other theorycrafters as well. We will need 2694 of that 7707 stat *just* for Accuracy alone to do raid content. That leaves us with 5013 tertiary stat remaining for Crit and alacrity assuming we can get to the exact point we need with accuracy without wasting any stats (which we can’t).

 

I’m not going to dive into the massive rabbit hole of discussing Alacrity and how people optimize it because I know I’ll start a massive fight for no reason. What I will say, however, is that there is certain amounts of that stat you will want in your gear, and the various options for optimization in the current expansion and the last will no longer be achievable in any way with the way the stat formulas are for level 80 and the stats provided in level 80 gear. Without having any alacrity whatsoever in your gear minus the 2 given shells that have them no matter what, you end up essentially wasting the value of 1100 stat. Now, if you put more alacrity in your gear, you lose the value of crit, which at the point we have in the stat pool, is much more worth it over the alacrity (again, AT THAT POINT, not in general).

 

I put together a set of 318 gear on the PTS and transferred a ton of 300 augments over for testing. What I found is that if you want to make alacrity even semi-useful, and assuming you have to have that 100% accuracy for raid content, you end up with 30% crit, and that’s counting in the bonus from mastery. That’s ridiculous. It’s simply not enough stat for the formulas.

 

I understand that the intent is to raise gear with big updates, and obviously that helps this situation a little bit, but it’s not enough. Even when they introduce 334 gear with the new operation, and even 340 gear with NiM of the new operation, we won’t have enough stats. 340 gear has 614 stat in each piece minus the 2 “low” pieces that give us 554. That ends up giving us a 8295 tertiary stat pool assuming we don’t get any new augments or any new stims. Remember, almost 2700 of that you put directly into accuracy for raid content. Then to hit 1.4 gcd+ you need roughly 2100 or more alacrity. That’s almost 5k of your 8.3k stat pool just to take care of those 2 stats. With the Crit formula also changing along with the other 2 stats, that leaves us with exceptionally low crit.

 

I haven’t even talked about tank stats and how they are basically getting screwed entirely out of absorb if they want shield chance that matters. That’s a whole other example, but this post is probably long enough with what I’ve said already.

 

I’m not here just to complain about this issue, however. I want to offer a few possible solutions.

 

1. Leave the stat formulas as they are, where only the level divisor increases from 75 to 80. This solution will make gearing with 7.0 feel like 5.0 again, where we are actually allowed to have the stats we need to optimize alacrity, but still have Crit to spare. You wouldn’t have to touch the stuff you have already set for stats on pieces with 7.0 gear if you did this. 330 gear will feel like what 242 gear did for us in 5.0. 334 feeling like 248. 340 feeling like 258. You get the idea.

 

2. Increase the amount of tertiary stats in the 7.0 gear to compensate for the stat formulas. This solution is pretty unlikely because of the work the devs already put into setting up the pieces and the stat distribution. Changing every single piece would take a lot of time which at this point is something they don’t have.

 

3. Remove accuracy as a requirement for gearing dps. This solution could be gone about in a few ways. One way is removing the defense chance legendary/gold/silver mobs have so that accuracy isn’t needed at all. Another way is simply giving players a buff when they enter a raid instance that increases their accuracy by 10% to compensate for the 10% defense chance legendary mobs have. A long term solution, though it would take a while to implement, is to remove accuracy entirely from the game and rework defense.

 

No matter what the devs end up doing, I really hope they end up fixing what I’m seeing here as an issue before 7.0 goes live. I just don’t think the math adds up as they intended, and I hope this at least brings that to their attention before they have a mass of players complaining.

[LD_Little_Dragon]

Will there be complaints though? Only from veteran players and theorycrafters, and I'm pretty sure 7.0 is banking on drawing in new players (who don't know any better) and not on retaining older players.

 

Look at the fancy new UI, and the 3 big, meaningless, numbers that pop up: Damage (alright, semi-useful), Survivablity (useless for dps/heals), Support (?).

 

You have to go digging for the actual meaningful stats, and what new player is going to do that? They'll look at the 'important' numbers and be happy. If you think new dps/heals wearing tank stats on LIVE is bad now, wait until after 7.0 drops and players think upping that 'survivability' number is useful. It will be like every dps/heals is using all the high endurance mods/enhancements on purpose.

 

New players will wear the horribly balanced, static gear the game gives them and be happy.

[MASTERDMANISEPIC]

Will there be complaints though? Only from veteran players and theorycrafters, and I'm pretty sure 7.0 is banking on drawing in new players (who don't know any better) and not on retaining older players.

 

Look at the fancy new UI, and the 3 big, meaningless, numbers that pop up: Damage (alright, semi-useful), Survivablity (useless for dps/heals), Support (?).

 

You have to go digging for the actual meaningful stats, and what new player is going to do that? They'll look at the 'important' numbers and be happy. If you think new dps/heals wearing tank stats on LIVE is bad now, wait until after 7.0 drops and players think upping that 'survivability' number is useful. It will be like every dps/heals is using all the high endurance mods/enhancements on purpose.

 

New players will wear the horribly balanced, static gear the game gives them and be happy.

 

I understand it’s tailoring to newer players. The problem is, the new players or conquest heroes will not be happy when they can’t even kill SM ops without enraging because the stats they have from the gear the game gives them isn’t effective enough. Obviously I’m a veteran player that actually cares what the stats do, and there are those that don’t, but the problem comes when even the people that don’t necessarily care what stats they have can’t do what they want to do either.

 

SM difficulty is supposed to be completed in 318 gear. Someone I talked to recently tried a SM TC on the PTS. It has a 9min enrage timer, and it was killed in 11min 30s. That was with nim raiders that know what’s going on already. If you can’t even kill story mode ops without enraging, there’s a problem. I’m certain that if that’s the case, people will struggle significantly with certain flashpoints, too. They will struggle more with dailies. They will struggle more with everything. This doesn’t just apply to ops.

[jedimasterjac]

Are ops and fps intended to be re-balanced further? I'm not sure whether or not that's the case, and that would really sway my level of concern here.

[MASTERDMANISEPIC]

Are ops and fps intended to be re-balanced further? I'm not sure whether or not that's the case, and that would really sway my level of concern here.

 

They are sure to go through numerous changes from now, absolutely. The issue I have isn’t with the scaling, that is just bound to be wack for a while. What the issue is is the gear not providing enough tertiary stat.

 

It’s something that double screws us currently. We have very wack scaling (which is bound to change and fix as time goes on in the xpack), but we also have gear that doesn’t provide enough tertiary stats to be useful for us to deal the damage or heal or even tank to the level we need those stats to be to successfully complete content.

[TheVoyant]

From where I'm sitting so few people optimized gear to begin with, this is unfortunately a very small minority of players.

 

I'm curious to see how it plays out, but with so many people running around with cookie cutter stats... Its a hard argument to make. I would say I've run into maybe 2 random players who understand the current gearing system. I mean the guides mislead people to no end, people have stats like 1213 alacrity but don't hit their gcds bc they don't get why they're doing it in the first place. And thats my gripe.... The game does not teach this to new players and relies on them googling some guide by a player who is clueless about stats copying what they heard from someone else.... Has made PvP night n day easier though.

 

But I'm not gonna test til it launches, bc no point building theories on that which will most likely be tweaked.

 

Still this follows the trend of: less fun, less power, less mobility, etc.

 

Its baffling logic to say the least.

 

For clarification I run an Arsenal Merc at 520 alac with zeal for PvE to hit 1.3 gcds. I run 1421 Alac in PvP to reach the 1.3 and thats with an inherit 3% alac boost that most disc don't have.

Edited November 16, 2021 by TheVoyant

[Toraak]

I'm going to miss my 1.3 GCD I use on my Virulence sniper. PTS just makes me feel so slow with a set of 318 gear and 1.4 GCD. It's even worse when I'm on one of the planets where you are stat capped, and your GCD drops to 1.5.

[TheVoyant]

I'm going to miss my 1.3 GCD I use on my Virulence sniper. PTS just makes me feel so slow with a set of 318 gear and 1.4 GCD. It's even worse when I'm on one of the planets where you are stat capped, and your GCD drops to 1.5.

 

It doesn't make any sort of logical sense right?

 

But the devs genuinely seem to think a slower, clunkier, less customizable game will be more enjoyable.

[ralphieceaser]

From where I'm sitting so few people optimized gear to begin with, this is unfortunately a very small minority of players.

Which is the better situation compared to games like WoW where if you dont metaslave and follow the l33t build guides or even play the current FOTM you are bound to suffer a lot of discrimination even though mathematically if played well, all specs are viable and are able to do the most of the content outside of literally world first m+/mythic.

 

It is absolutely better for people to not take the game too seriously because after all, it is a VIDEO GAME, not their source of self worth.

And i don t see why you would complain, you get to enjoy your stat advantages and be more optimized than most, why do you need others to follow your minmaxy playstyle?

 

I personally always like to understand how a game works but I dont expect others to do the same, and I only do that in order to make builds that I enjoy and focus on one thing such as having more burst(though based on the stat DRs we have its not like we can put all our tertiaries into crit if we wanted burst, so stat customization is already extremely limited), I care little about the highest theoretical dps build because my focus has always been making builds in which I enjoytheir playstyle , for example the engi sniper tactical that makes emp discharge increases the damage and trigger explosive probe is incredibly fun because of that huge amount of damage you can cause in that single GCD, great burst and great for pvp, it is obviously not the best performing tactical if you want to dummy parse but if you know how to play your class then able to perform well in high end pve content as well no matter the build, let's not pretend this is about world first where due to lack of gear people need to optimize to mathematically beat the raid.

Everything past that can be blamed on people failing mechanics or not performing on the highest level of what their build provides in terms of dps, nowhere in there requires minmaxing and that is a good thing because we see what happens to a game when minmaxers take over.

 

Though based on what I am reading, you ll start having to make choices, accuracy obviously cant be ignored in pve content so you are kinda forced into it, but then the option is crit or alacrity, if you only care about theoretical encounter dps you ll obviously feel alacrity is a priority or in your cast "mandatory", but for us who prefer more bursty playstyles, crit would be our preferred choice because I choose based on my build, not what is most efficient.

Edited November 16, 2021 by ralphieceaser

[TheVoyant]

.

And i don t see why you would complain, you get to enjoy your stat advantages and be more optimized than most, why do you need others to follow your minmaxy playstyle?

 

First, I'm not a WoW guy so you can throw out all the toxic stuff that comes from that line of thinking. Its cringeworthy imo anytime anyone brings it up.

 

Second, my frustration lies in the game doesn't teach players to get better. They're running around not knowing what to do and then wondering why they're having a hard time with crap stats that are never explained in game. Anywhere.

 

Its not rooted in some weird form of elitism, its rooted in wanting people to have the potential to succeed opened up for them not continuously made more difficult to acquire. I spend half my time in game helping people make builds/teaching them how to utilize stats bc there aren't any accurate resources out there for people to learn.

 

Third, I never judge the way others want to play. Casual/Hardcore makes no difference to me. But when this sort of logic is utilized.... its how it gets taken away for the rest of us.

Edited November 16, 2021 by TheVoyant

[ralphieceaser]

Its not rooted in some weird form of elitism, its rooted in wanting people to have the potential to succeed opened up for them not continuously made more difficult to acquire. I spend half my time in game helping people make builds/teaching them how to utilize stats bc there aren't any accurate resources out there for people to learn.

My question stands, why do you care that other people "dont have the potential to succeed opened up" when they have no problems with the way and content they are playing, we are not drowning in complaints about people not understanding the game after all, you decided that is a problem, not them.

 

I can understand them having issues and asking you but your complain was clearly aimed at the fact that the playerbase and community as a whole doesnt play like you.

Hell anything than nim ops can be done with whatever meme build and inefficient play, and even in nim ops the room for error still exists, it is just not enormous. And I know very well how average some people can be, when in a single target MM fp boss my overall damage is 75% of the bosses health it is very clear that the other DPS underperformed big time, I felt no need to tell him that or to try tell him how to play his class, why do you?

 

I like to understand how the game works for my own build's benefit, but I dont go around expecting other people play on my level unless I am in a guild that focuses heavily on high end content and even then, such expectations are unrealistic, you just hope they are good enough, not think and play the same way i do.

 

People have been complaining about a lot of things but rarely ever this, most are enjoying the game, yet you believe that is a problem for those people, you are not those people, so we conclude that you clearly dont speak for those people and the community, only for yourself.

That clearly suggests you are personally complaining that people arent playing the same way you are, why not let people just play the way they like instead of trying to promote your playstyle as something that people should follow?

 

I have reasons for the opposite, we have WoW as a perfect example of what happens when your mentality dominates a game, and it is not pretty so this situation in SWTOR is actually great!

[bwhitt]

We have two people arguing the same point between each other. No one is saying it isnt ok for people to sit back and enjoy the game how they like it. But there is an endgame community and it doesnt matter how small or large that community is they shouldnt be scuffed because some people dont understand the gearing factors of the game. With the current set ups even the regular go with the flow people, new players and conquest players wont be able to much either. Flashpoints and Story Modes will become impossible for those players to kill. Even with the same players having scuffed gear, because they arent aware of the numbers needed to do massive amounts of damage at max optimization, will have an impossible time trying to do the same things they do now for enjoyment. this post isnt about forcing everyone to min max their stats. its about those of us that do min max so in the Nightmare Content the game has to offer we do the best we can. and the players who want to relax and chill because its a game will also still be able to do those things. as it stands no one will be able to do anything even the regular players. Thats what this post is focusing on.

[ralphieceaser]

]We have two people arguing the same point between each other.

Not really, my point is a far more sociological one.

 

You can never have a community full of theorycrafters and minmaxers, very few people in mmorpgs actually care about more indepth understanding of how the game works. (Guides dont give indepth understanding)

 

By that fact you realize that there will be people who dont understand the game in any serious level of depth, so usually two factions exist, people who play the game for fun and dont get into too many details and just play based on what they understand via the game or the ignorant metaslaves who because they read a guide believe they know how you are meant to play the game.

 

The first faction is mostly harmless, they do their own thing, they obviously dont perform great but its not like they are often going into content that ever requires optimization, technically no content requires optimization after we get decent gear because even in nim room for error exists.

 

The second faction is extremely harmful to a game and its community and we can observe the results by observing the WoW community, one that openly discriminates against people who are not playing the FOTM or meta builds, one where pugging can be suffering for some who play sub optimal classes or builds, one where ignorant people who dont understand the game have made themselves believe they need FOTM/Meta to beat content that requires half that performance. The amount of ignorance and half knowledge is vast in that faction and they use that half knowledge to delude themselves they know better which results in extreme discrimination of anyone who isnt obsessed with minmaxing even though themselves dont understand minmaxing.

 

You cannot have a gaming community that understands indepth how a game works no matter how much you want to, I would like that to, just like I would like most people in real life to be as informed or detailed like me, that is sadly not happening and based on observation the results of a community where the minmax mentality is spread are not pretty, hence why if I see someone complaining about how others play the game I have to point it out.

 

Intentions no matter how good matter little, the result of actions is what matters, and the results of trying to spread a more minmax mentality are terrible.

 

]there is an endgame community and it doesnt matter how small or large that community is they shouldnt be scuffed because some people dont understand the gearing factors of the game

That is up to them, it is a personal choice, dont try to spread the way you play on others, if they want to improve, they will, if they dont care.

 

With the current set ups even the regular go with the flow people, new players and conquest players wont be able to much either. Flashpoints and Story Modes will become impossible for those players to kill. Even with the same players having scuffed gear, because they arent aware of the numbers needed to do massive amounts of damage at max optimization

Swtor is incredibly lenient in terms of dps performance requirement, and from what I understand what we are discussing here is a loss of overall tertiary stats, which is definitely gonna have an effect on more high end activities but I have very strong doubts that because a casual doesnt have optimal crit they wont be able to clear low end ops or mm fps both which have an enormous room for error and can even be done with a dps down.

[bwhitt]

so i need to reply to your entire post as a whole mister ralphieceaser

 

Its clear you did not choose to read my entire paragraph as a whole. if you bothered to even test things out you would understand where the post is coming from on both parts. On PTS with the 300 augs which currently are the best and using the gear made for story mode operations the TC boss which is a solo boss that takes on average 5 minutes to kill takes 11 minutes and 30 seconds. the enrage timer is 9 minutes. meaning players that play the game for fun and do story mode things will be unable to clear. this isnt about min maxing to do end game content this about the entire game at this point. No one can complete anything. This time it would be amazing if you bothered to read everything thats typed. i never stated that everyone is required to min max. On top of that the min maxers are not the worse part of the game. We strive to be the best of the best players in the end game content. Not all of us are disrespectful and hate players that are on the low end. Everyone should be able to play whatever they want however they want. but you cant be disrespectful to players that min max because your upset that you personally cant get on that level.

 

The way gearing is currently on PTS its impossible to clear anything effectively even with the room for error. and thats the issue that needs to be fixxed.

 

I do appericate you however your reading skills need to improve so you can understand whats being said

[ralphieceaser]

if you bothered to even test things out you would understand where the post is coming from on both parts. On PTS with the 300 augs which currently are the best and using the gear made for story mode operations the TC boss which is a solo boss that takes on average 5 minutes to kill takes 11 minutes and 30 seconds. the enrage timer is 9 minutes. meaning players that play the game for fun and do story mode things will be unable to clear. this isnt about min maxing to do end game content this about the entire game at this point. No one can complete anything.

I am not against believing that this could be a possibility, but if it was I would be expecting a sea of complaints here in the pts forum instead of just a couple of people with long posts about stats, we would be seeing a ton of posts of people being unable to complete anything, so why is that not the case?

 

What you are suggesting is a glaring problem and mistake from the part of the devs that is not easily missed, people would notice being unable to complete anything, what you are describing is a major problem, yet why are there barely any people reporting it?

 

Based on this I can only guess something must be wrong on your end and the way you tested it because I highly doubt there's that few testers that only you were able to test group content. Unless you have another reason as to why that enormous problem has not been noticed by most testers, plus sounds kinda dramatic.

[Twortas]

there's a very limited number of people playing ptr, if the case of nim raiders not being able to meet enrage timer holds up, the forum better put on its flame-resistant suit once expac goes live

[ralphieceaser]

there's a very limited number of people playing ptr, if the case of nim raiders not being able to meet enrage timer holds up, the forum better put on its flame-resistant suit once expac goes live

Oh i would understand the lack of testers for nim content but not for the rest of the content that is way more accessible, unless there's like 5 testers or something xd

[TheVoyant]

My question stands, why do you care that other people "dont have the potential to succeed opened up" when they have no problems with the way and content they are playing, we are not drowning in complaints about people not understanding the game after all, you decided that is a problem, not them.

 

What?

 

Ok whatever weird concepts you're projecting over the point just let it go man.

 

Its very simple and has been explained a couple times now.

 

People are unable to clear content and don't have a pathway to clear content. Progression and skill progression are not intuitively integrated into the design.

 

That's it. Not whatever misconceptions and misinterpretations you took from it.

[Toraak]

Every time I go to the PTS I see very few on it. Combine that with the fact getting 8 people on to do a raid on PTS at the same time is even more challenging. Even less are testing Operation balance.

[Schneegol]

So, uhh, hey, dev team. Fix this. Cause once it drops - you're gonna either have forums blow up, or lose a lot of veteran/dedicated playerbase. There isnt a need to reinvent the wheel.

[Damask_Rose]

I am a casual player. I don't min-max my stats and my gear is undoubtedly far from optimized. However, I like knowing that if I cared more I could get more out of my performance by tweaking my gear. I greatly respect people who have the interest and ability to theorycraft and I like knowing that information is out there should I choose to search it out. I resent like heck being forced to have poorly optimized gear with no choice to do better, and I am angry every time someone says as a casual player I don't deserve the choice to improve my gear. If they are going to make everyone wear the exact same gear, the least they could do is give us good gear! Gating higher rated gear behind content type is one thing, gating quality gear is another. It is insulting.

[TheVoyant]

There isnt a need to reinvent the wheel.

 

Well it would explain why we all have less mobility and the game is considerably slower in 7.0 😂

[Beyrahl]

Whew boy. I was hoping something like this would be fixed before hitting live. But it didn't. There are a lot of things they could do to make it better, though the gear is only 20ish item levels above our last expansions gear. I am glad you took the time to write it all out in a much better way than I would of.

I hope some light can be shed on this topic, along with the way a new "bolster" if you will, creates power caps randomly for gear and not at 326, but earlier than that for warzones for example. Different sets and item levels have seemingly random caps to things like critical rating, accuracy, alacrity, and power.

[Spexius]

The whole gear situation is a mess currently. SM OPs drop green gear at iR 320 and 322. This week is DF/DP and I've seen teams which feel almost as ok as 6.x, and others where you run into soft enrage here and there, kills certainly taking their time. Same issues for healing, which is all across the board. Green VM FP gear goes to 324, blue MM FP gear up to 326. Conquest green gear is up to 326, same as blue VM OPs gear. The only "normal" gear progression is with PvP gear where you go through green-blue-purple stages with raising iR, and it also stops at 326. PvE gear coloring is now based on content "difficulty". VM FPs drop blue MM FP gear here and there, just to add insult to the injury to that SM OP gear garbage. No idea who conceived all that, it certainly reeks of someone having had a "grand vision", but not of the conceptual kind ...