How do you feel about your L75 gearing grind now that 7.0 has been announced?

[Galbsadi]

People have been over this time and time again: it is detrimental to a game's health if new players are treated as second class citizens and can't catch up with their friends quickly, be that with a boost or easy gearing. Nobody wants to join an MMORPG their friends are playing only to hear the words: "but we can't actually play together for 300 hours unless we sacrifice all our progress."

 

It's good to have long-term cosmetic rewards and rare cosmetic items that can show how long you've been playing (e.g. the Founder title), but gearing being long and tedious has never really worked out. That's why MMOs have moved away from it for close to 15 years now.

 

Exactly. Give them a unique mount or title or stronghold decoration (or maybe even an entire stronghold!)...but don't prevent them from playing the game.

[Zorii_Bliss]

The short answer is because the idea of numbers going up is appealing to people, stats, damage, money, etc.

 

Why do they need to add more armor sets, weapons, locations, etc? Why can't people just be fine with everything that's there?

 

The fundamentals of progression aren't in question, we're talking this approach to "end-game".

 

I've not expressed any issue with the honest commerciality of shinies for real money. Makes perfect sense.

 

If this is your issue with things why not put all the information you just posted in the first post? Why do you keep making these topics trying to disguise what it is you're doing/saying like you're trying to conduct a survey when you really just want people to tell you that 7.0 is bad?

 

"Hey so what do you guys think of this? It's bad right?"

 

(after several people reply)

 

"No, see here's what the actual problem is and why you are all dumb."

 

Why bother with the pretense? You already know your own views and issues so why not post those from the get-go? People aren't validating your passive-aggressive questions from the get-go so you might as well be more upfront from the get go.

 

You clearly don't understand what happens in a discussion (what all of us here on the forums are involved in); we talk about something and in the course of that a thought occurs to someone which may not be apposite to the particular topic being discussed but is worth discussing separately. In a conversation that's not easy to accommodate, in a written forum it's very easy.

Please stop inventing your tin-foil theory about my motivations because that just speaks to the fragility of yourself. If you don't want to discuss things with me then don't, if nobody else does then I just don't get any responses, no biggie. I'm asking questions and making points that occur to me and if others come up with good reasons to change my thinking then I'm happy to do that. However just throwing up excuses for things does not answer the wisdom of them nor does it open up the possibility for better practices.

[Zorii_Bliss]

You get level 75 gear mostly from doing level 70 content. All expansions had the level cap raise and new gear tiers. I do understand the new tiers of gear because it keeps people busy in an MMO that doesn't have a whole lot else to offer to veteran players, but the new levels are completely and utterly pointless. It's just so people can feel good about a meaningless higher number. It's not as if you become more powerful from the levels themselves. It all comes from gear and there are no new skills, they just spread the skill acquisition over more levels.

 

And now they're pruning the existing skills, which is ok by itself, but it does mean there will be more levels and fewer skills. And no more utilities to select either. I really can't wait till they do the same thing as in WoW, reducing the levels back to the original levels. The levels are "like butter scraped over too much bread".

 

Thanks, I hadn't actually considered that they're giving us less for this next 5 levels than what we got before.

The gruel is thinning even as we ask, "Please sir, can i have some more?"

[Zorii_Bliss]

I know the question is rhetorical, but this is another opportunity for me to mention Guild Wars favorably. NCSoft did exactly that - very successfully. The game's level cap is 20 and you would reach it easily half-way through the first chapter. In that game, you have to earn/capture your abilities as you progress, long after hitting level cap. You also can only take 8 abilities (out of 100+) into combat, everything is instanced (except for "towns" (combat-free safe zones)) and you can only change your available 8 abilities while you are in the "towns." You can also wield weapons of 2 classes (called professions) and use the corresponding abilities.

 

For those that play GW: I main a Warrior/Ritualist carrying "Sundering Rhino's Charge" (a hammer) or a longbow or a staff, with 31-51 Energy, and Luxon "Signet of Spirits", "Ebon Vanguard Sniper Support" among other abilities.

 

All that is to say: Yes, these things have been done very well by other MMO developers - years ago - and done quite well. That includes - as I mentioned above - allowing characters to mix and match classes, weapons, and abilities. It helps that they had planned that right from the design stage of the game.

 

Shame they only seem to be taking plays from one MMO and apparently not even learning from their detrimental outcomes. That said, because they are refusing to reveal their reasoning and the gist of all the "new" abilities (and mechanics) they have in store, we don't know that they've come up with solutions to make those past mis-steps actually work for us. Perhaps there is a new hope or perhaps we're looking at the last Jedi.

All the secrecy for the sake of "the big reveal, see you could've trusted us" only serves to waste all our time analysing, debating and worrying in the uncertainty of the limited evidence we are given about what may be coming.

I find it hard to believe that all this half-arsed implementation and reveal on PTS is actually a fully "strategised" experience for someone's entertainment at our expense.

It does seem as though we might seriously be part of what should be the design phase of this game, despite being just a few months from release. I welcome the involvement but feel it should've been done 12 months or more out from release and now would be the last round of consultation to find the last, minor wrinkles.

[Zorii_Bliss]

I'm sorry, but hard disagree here. You can literally run a few flashpoints in a day (spammer station, anyone?), collect a whole bunch of disposable gold gear (that's all garbage for you), deconstruct it, get a Legendary Ember for roughly every 5 gear pieces, and sell each one for roughly a million credits. I average 10 pieces of loot per flashpoint, and spammer station takes about 15 minutes, so that's 8 million credits per hour right there. No fishy emails or breaking ToS, just playing the game, for an hour.

 

Indeed, and how much fun is that, when perhaps you only have an hour of game time a sitting and only a handful of sittings a week?

 

You do have a point there. That first gear up to 306 does take a while...maybe almost as long as it takes to level to 75. I would very much disagree about "longer" though. It's a fairly simple grind: run Flashpoints, equip anything that's an ilvl upgrade, break everything else, spend tech fragments (it's like 300 per piece) on slots that fall behind, repeat. Takes about a week, conservatively estimating. As far as augments, yeah, that could be a bit of a grind (although not as bad as you're saying, again, 8 million credits per hour just running flashpoints), but those also are something that, at this point, I'd probably skip for the next couple months if I was a newer player, because you can get 'enough' to experience so much without touching them anyhow. (In fact, of my characters, only two or three have fully augmented gear.)

 

Just after GS1 started I created a new account/legacy and I've been playing that in parallel to my main. I've just been playing it for the story experiences and then when the toons hit 75 I did a little FP running to start collecting frags and get the end-game armours. With time limitations I haven't had the time to endlessly "Groundhog" the millions you have explained are possible and have only acquired 4 pieces of one set through frags and the limited cash I've gotten from drops whilst doing GS POs and conquest contributions.

 

So whilst those who can dedicate hours to the game daily/weekly can perhaps indulge the monotony/repetition you describe, along with all the other time-sinks, I'm thinking of the casuals that only have a few hours to indulge per week. The same casuals that might be being targetted with the simplified combat proposed for 7.0

 

That's the thing: I *can't* buy anything. I said that I have a couple billion, then qualified that with I am relatively poor. I can buy most Legacy unlocks, sure, because the war on inflation is over, and inflation won, but items on the GTN that people used to buy for a few million or tens of millions? They go for tens of BILLIONS now, and I can't touch them. It's the same as it's always been for me, just the number of zeroes have changed.

 

At last we're on the same side of the argument with the ludicrous state of the "economy". But the absurdity has been accelerating, less than a year ago some "desirable" CM armours were going for sub 10 MCr, 1 hr of Spammering, now they're being sold for 10s of MCr. Perhaps a cynic would say that BW proxies are "breaking" the GTN to force people to spend CC in CM or maybe the uber rich players are exploiting the GTN. Neither is good for the "average" player, nor is any other real reason for the inflation.

 

Again, this is simple: so newer players actually have an opportunity to get into endgame content. Imagine if you HAD to run every operation from before 6.0 to even enter Dxun. How many people would be doing Dxun? 5? 10 per server?

 

Hang on. Ops attract interest because of the challenge and rewards they offer be they cosmetics or QoL or more powerful gear that makes it easier to do that Op. Getting into them can't be gated on having what's in them, that's why the necessary gear is available from "easier" content and vendors. That logic has always been the case before SWTOR 1.0.

 

Why SHOULDN'T they? If you're interested in end-game raiding, do you want to spend your time having to train somebody through every operation in the game before doing the one you want every single time someone leaves the game for any reason? You yourself said that you've looked at, and I presume also played, other games. Why should it be harder for you to come back to SWTOR if you try another game? Because that's what you seem to be asking for here.

 

We may be debating different points here, you're talking about mechanics and tactics which are always a necessary learning curve for any game that wants to be genuinely challenging. That's why both of us would be coming to a game and why either of us might leave in frustration if they proved unmanageable for us.

I'm saying that newbies shouldn't be able to rock up to any "hard" content and be able to overcome it with the same ease as those veterans who've grafted for the powerful/rare items won in previous runs of the ultimate content. And that those trophies should not be rendered less than they were when the latest content is added to the game.

 

Sadly, because of the ability rework they are doing more than just making the future challenges more challenging than the current best working gear can handle, they are effectively rendering them less capable against all the content they previously dominated.

 

The statements about current gear not working at level 80 aren't logical, because the moment 7.0 drops all current set bonuses will be broken by the ability rework that 7.0 brings. So you can't use any of the "special" attributes against any level of content, scaled or not.

[kirorx]

Its not a big deal. The way gearing is now, is so alt friendly that it makes gearing no chore at all. Which has been awesome.

[kirorx]

Official statements so far indicate that all L75 set bonuses will not work (since abilities involved may be changing, their current synergies breaking or they're being removed to achieve new balance). Tacticals similarly won't work for the same reasons.

 

So unless you want any L75 armour sets for their looks, their "special" utility only lasts until 7.0 drops.

 

The look is a good point. Some of the gear used as shells are old retired sets and if they are pulled off the vendor after 7.0, we may not see them again. Going to have to stack up on some of those for aesthetic reasons

[Galbsadi]

Indeed, and how much fun is that, when perhaps you only have an hour of game time a sitting and only a handful of sittings a week?

 

While that wouldn't be fun, and I wouldn't disagree. If you only have an hour or a couple hours to play every week, then odds are you're not running any content that requires any gear whatsoever (literally, as long as SOMETHING is in the slot, scaling takes care of the rest), so you don't need the gear. Augments are pointless, because scaling removes almost all stats (except tertiary stats), so again, not needed. In fact, in this regard, Bioware is closer to appealing to the casual player than most other MMOs, because you can at least catch up in ilvl without running the hardest content in the game.

 

Just after GS1 started I created a new account/legacy and I've been playing that in parallel to my main. I've just been playing it for the story experiences and then when the toons hit 75 I did a little FP running to start collecting frags and get the end-game armours. With time limitations I haven't had the time to endlessly "Groundhog" the millions you have explained are possible and have only acquired 4 pieces of one set through frags and the limited cash I've gotten from drops whilst doing GS POs and conquest contributions.

 

This sounds like a whole other limitation, then. I've been able to gather upwards of 10k tech fragments in a week, even when I've only had 4-5 hours to play that week, just from conquest alone. That right there is 3.3 set pieces per week, plus any that might drop from the conquest boxes, either when the conquest is completed or on Tuesday when an invasion resets.

 

So whilst those who can dedicate hours to the game daily/weekly can perhaps indulge the monotony/repetition you describe, along with all the other time-sinks, I'm thinking of the casuals that only have a few hours to indulge per week. The same casuals that might be being targetted with the simplified combat proposed for 7.0

 

Touchy subject here, because I, and probably many others, actually disagree with the ability pruning, at least the way it's been toyed with so far on the PTS. They've reverted the worst offenses, but we're talking about taking away key abilities like Saber Throw from a Jugg/Guardian, Sleep Dart from an Operative/Scoundrel, etc. Although, that said, for those few hours per week...again, you don't need the gear. There's not a single veteran flashpoint in the game where you need a fully augmented amplifier rerolled set bonus 306 gear. I can't confirm with the newest of flashpoints, but even master mode hasn't required all of that in my experience. (The later master modes might be way smoother with 306 gear and preferably a set bonus, but the earlier ones [FPs that were in the base game] literally just require one to be aware of mechanics and their class.) It's not a gear test, it's a skill test. And if that doesn't interest you, that content isn't for you. Story mode operations don't require full set bonuses either (they help, but they're not needed). Same applies to some of the HMs/Veteran operations. Nightmare/MM ops, sure, THEY do, but again, if you're playing that content, you're not only playing for 1 hour per day and a couple days per week. That's like saying "oh, I do world first progression in WoW but only log in for raid." Simply does not happen.

 

At last we're on the same side of the argument with the ludicrous state of the "economy". But the absurdity has been accelerating, less than a year ago some "desirable" CM armours were going for sub 10 MCr, 1 hr of Spammering, now they're being sold for 10s of MCr. Perhaps a cynic would say that BW proxies are "breaking" the GTN to force people to spend CC in CM or maybe the uber rich players are exploiting the GTN. Neither is good for the "average" player, nor is any other real reason for the inflation.

 

This is more of an issue with inflation because the game doesn't have a reasonable credit sink, not really an issue with pricing overall. Yes, prices are well beyond normal stuff, but it's also related to you being able to sell at prices way beyond normal stuff. When it was 20 million for a full set of Revan armor, which was one of the most expensive items on the GTN at the time, you'd be lucky to sell crafting mats for 100k. Now it's 10s of billions for the rarer armors, but you're selling crafting mats for millions, rather than 10s of thousands. The rules haven't really changed since inflation, just the numbers.

 

Hang on. Ops attract interest because of the challenge and rewards they offer be they cosmetics or QoL or more powerful gear that makes it easier to do that Op. Getting into them can't be gated on having what's in them, that's why the necessary gear is available from "easier" content and vendors. That logic has always been the case before SWTOR 1.0.

 

Currently, yes. If you start carrying over gear sets and tacticals, however, then it could be that you're not getting into an op unless you have gear that drops from another op. Example: maybe as a 'mando DPS you're not getting in unless you have Apex Predator from Dxun. If you think that doesn't happen, look at how some raid teams are for trials in ESO, where gear sets DO cross expansions. A tank MUST have their set from Maw of Lorkaj and MUST have their set from Sunspire or groups don't want them. A healer MUST have their set from WGT and MUST have their set from...well, you get the point.

 

We may be debating different points here, you're talking about mechanics and tactics which are always a necessary learning curve for any game that wants to be genuinely challenging. That's why both of us would be coming to a game and why either of us might leave in frustration if they proved unmanageable for us.

I'm saying that newbies shouldn't be able to rock up to any "hard" content and be able to overcome it with the same ease as those veterans who've grafted for the powerful/rare items won in previous runs of the ultimate content. And that those trophies should not be rendered less than they were when the latest content is added to the game.

 

Not all all. I'm talking about when you carry things across that maintain the power level and don't give people a way to 'catch up,' then people aren't 'caught up' when new content comes out and need to run that old content (even if they're pros and ran it on another character but just don't have the right gear for this one) just to have the set bonus they need to do their job effectively in the new content. Again, ESO does this, and this is a major fallback ESO has as a result of doing this. WoW used to have this problem until they started disabling gear sets after content was old. SWTOR is simply learning from other games on this.

 

Sadly, because of the ability rework they are doing more than just making the future challenges more challenging than the current best working gear can handle, they are effectively rendering them less capable against all the content they previously dominated.

 

Possibly, and this is a concern of mine as well. Hopefully they'll rebalance the old content accordingly, but this is Bioware, so flip a coin to see if that happens.

 

The statements about current gear not working at level 80 aren't logical, because the moment 7.0 drops all current set bonuses will be broken by the ability rework that 7.0 brings. So you can't use any of the "special" attributes against any level of content, scaled or not.

 

That's not really true, overall. There might be a set her or there, but for example, Concentrated fire just affects things related to Supercharged Gas, which will likely remain. Tactician relates to Tactical Advantages, which still exist (although the rework is literally turning that set into a talent, so it'll be interesting to see if it could stack with the set before 80 I expect that this is one in particular that they don't want people being able to double-dip in at level 80, however). Right Price is based off CD usages that PTs/VGs are likely to keep. This isn't new to Bioware or SWTOR, either. Sets existed before, they'll exist again. 6.0 did well with them, IMO. Hopefully 7.0 will do the same.

[cloneofdax]

Aren't you just describing what happens whenever any MMO raises the level cap?

 

I'd imagine the answer to the "how will you feel?" type questions will be "the same way I felt the last time the level cap got raised."

 

LOL, very nicely put. Agreed, same as last time, however I never see it as a grind as so many of you do. I enjoy increased level caps, getting new gear is just part of the course. Having said that until we get to hear more of what the new level 80 gear will be, it's not going to mean anything yet.

[Sarova]

LOL, like it has not happened about 3 or 4 times already before :eek:

I indeed. Gear grind is the same any time there's a level increase in every mmo I've played. It just takes a short while to learn the best way initially (during which we'll all have at least one moan about it) then it's fairly easy as people always share their info. Not a big deal for me.

[casirabit]

While not a fan but it is something you get used to every time they raise the level cap.

[TezeFarstar]

Do you not also play for fun?

[Baletraeger]

I just hope they go back to one set per spec like in the past.

 

Onslaught was supposed to be a change to horizontal gearing but they are obviously giving up on that considering how most of the sets are useless and they need to cull all the classes to handle balance better.

 

TBH if we just had regular set bonus gear like every other expansion no one would be having an issue with this.

 

I still wish they had listened to player feedback to make set bonuses 3/6 instead of 4/6 to allow mix and match, which would have been a much more successful implementation of their horizontal gearing strategy and perhaps led us down a different path going into 7.0

[kirorx]

We have done this with every level cap. 55,60.65,70,75.80.

 

This happens everytime, this is why I dont buy those outrageously priced yellow augments.

 

If they dont overhaul the gearing system; which they could, this that happens all the time too, than it wont take much to get the next new toys that come out. I would say the new gearing systems is probally the least painless currently, though I could do away with RNG, but we cant have it all.

 

In short, when the level cap increase, we get new gear for the new level, it happens.

[Hrafnhildur]

Hi.

Will there be new content? New flashpoints, new missions? If yes, then is fine by me, this isn't my first rodeo aka game where the level cap is increased and i have to farm new gear.