I'm torn...

[lord_mitoh]

...on what makes marauders unique from the other classes. What I'm getting at is, juggernauts have force push and aoe snares and things, inquisitor can heal and use force lightning, assassin has cloak and force pull, sniper has cover and really long range, operatives have stealth and high cc with healing and decent dps, powertechs have death from above and shields, mercenaries have their rockets and jetpack abilities, with some healing.

 

Marauders have...a 2nd saber that adds a very piddly amount of damage that doesn't affect game-play at all...we don't have any unique force abilities that a jugg doesn't already have.

 

In addition to all the other threads about marauders, the more i look and analyze the class the more I think what happened was they did marauder's last and said.."Uhm, we ran out of idea's".

Edited December 30, 2011 by lord_mitoh
changed the title to be more appropriate

[shadowcreaper]

...on what makes marauders unique from the other classes. What I'm getting at is, juggernauts have force push and aoe snares and things, inquisitor can heal and use force lightning, assassin has cloak and force pull, sniper has cover and really long range, operatives have stealth and high cc with healing and decent dps, powertechs have death from above and shields, mercenaries have their rockets and jetpack abilities, with some healing.

 

Marauders have...a 2nd saber that adds a very piddly amount of damage that doesn't affect game-play at all...we don't have any unique force abilities that a jugg doesn't already have.

 

In addition to all the other threads about marauders, the more i look and analyze the class the more I think what happened was they did marauder's last and said.."Uhm, we ran out of idea's".

 

tbh its one of those classes that just wasnt loved my its parents after birth:o

 

But in reality it isnt as bad as some say though in game you will find yourself looking at a Sith sorc ith a tank companion soloing elites and wondering, well who needs me in a group;)

 

But tbh this class needs work and not so much damage wise ect but more on CC abilities as we should be a proper melee class and based on the Lore entry "we pick out weakspots in enermys defence and exsploit them" ect ect.

 

Biggest thing i miss from sorc, isnt the damage or healing but the CC effects like force push ect, i reall do miss pushing elites off bridges.

[lord_mitoh]

tbh its one of those classes that just wasnt loved my its parents after birth:o

 

But in reality it isnt as bad as some say though in game you will find yourself looking at a Sith sorc ith a tank companion soloing elites and wondering, well who needs me in a group;)

 

But tbh this class needs work and not so much damage wise ect but more on CC abilities as we should be a proper melee class and based on the Lore entry "we pick out weakspots in enermys defence and exsploit them" ect ect.

 

Biggest thing i miss from sorc, isnt the damage or healing but the CC effects like force push ect, i reall do miss pushing elites off bridges.

 

Carnage in itself doesn't do much that a rage spec can't do almost as well, it has its perks but rage though has a little bit less burst, can sustain that burst more often then carnage can seems like.

 

The way I would see it, anni is good as it is minus a few small tweaks here and there as a sustained dps tree. Rage is good for what it does in smaller but sustainable bursts, as well as some assist control(and what I mean by assist control meaning all of the cc abilities boosted in rage, is for assisting someone else it does nothing for the player 1on1 but help the other guy).

 

Carnage on the other hand lacks the really high end burst, but it does have a unique skill tree Item I do like and that is the root with ravage. The only thing we have going for the class is the offhand saber, which in a fight is used as much for an extra strike as it can be for adding control. In a jedi vs jedi, or even if you watch the iconic movie "return" 2 sabers didn't damage the jedi faster it forced him to defend instead of attack until they got the advantage.

 

I think if carnage was re-worked to be cc specific, ie run up to someone hit a channel like ravage and from then forward the target is rooted over say 6 seconds, for each second the damage you do is increased and the damage they deal back is reduced by 15% and abilities like that where we can do cc and lock things down like modifying smash to aoe stun or aoe kb.

 

In most of the cinematics of the story line i've faced so far(I'm lvl 36 and my class quests I'm on now are just passed quesh i forget where but haven't gone there yet). You will see the your character force choke someone into the air then throw them, or 2 people at once, those abilities should be things you can do in-game too, so some advancement of things like that in the carnage tree, and just do a DoT-DPS/CC-DPS/Burst-DPS layout of anni/carnage/rage and I think it would be a fine class.

[Drathmar]

Carnage in itself doesn't do much that a rage spec can't do almost as well, it has its perks but rage though has a little bit less burst, can sustain that burst more often then carnage can seems like.

 

The way I would see it, anni is good as it is minus a few small tweaks here and there as a sustained dps tree. Rage is good for what it does in smaller but sustainable bursts, as well as some assist control(and what I mean by assist control meaning all of the cc abilities boosted in rage, is for assisting someone else it does nothing for the player 1on1 but help the other guy).

 

Carnage on the other hand lacks the really high end burst, but it does have a unique skill tree Item I do like and that is the root with ravage. The only thing we have going for the class is the offhand saber, which in a fight is used as much for an extra strike as it can be for adding control. In a jedi vs jedi, or even if you watch the iconic movie "return" 2 sabers didn't damage the jedi faster it forced him to defend instead of attack until they got the advantage.

 

I think if carnage was re-worked to be cc specific, ie run up to someone hit a channel like ravage and from then forward the target is rooted over say 6 seconds, for each second the damage you do is increased and the damage they deal back is reduced by 15% and abilities like that where we can do cc and lock things down like modifying smash to aoe stun or aoe kb.

 

In most of the cinematics of the story line i've faced so far(I'm lvl 36 and my class quests I'm on now are just passed quesh i forget where but haven't gone there yet). You will see the your character force choke someone into the air then throw them, or 2 people at once, those abilities should be things you can do in-game too, so some advancement of things like that in the carnage tree, and just do a DoT-DPS/CC-DPS/Burst-DPS layout of anni/carnage/rage and I think it would be a fine class.

 

Carnage actually has a hell of a lot of burst once you get massacre.

 

Massacre (which procs an ataru strike and gives ataru strikes 50% chance) + Critical Force Scream (one of our highest damage abilities, and with the carnage talents, it is THE BEST damage per rage ability single target at 2 rage, and gets +30% crit damage) + Gore + Ravage = a hell of a lot of burst.

 

Also, Force Scream is actually worth using even without the auto crit (though you shouldn't as with massacre you should always get an auto crit) as it is our best Damage per Rage ability at 2 rage in the carnage tree.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Drathmar

[lord_mitoh]

Carnage actually has a hell of a lot of burst once you get massacre.

 

Massacre (which procs an ataru strike and gives ataru strikes 50% chance) + Critical Force Scream (one of our highest damage abilities, and with the carnage talents, it is THE BEST damage per rage ability single target at 2 rage, and gets +30% crit damage) + Gore + Ravage = more burst than Rage tree.

 

Assuming your target stands still for the 5 seconds it takes to go through that rotation, and that's if you don't get interrupted during ravage. On paper it's probably better, I've yet to pvp anywhere open or in a wz where a target will stand still that long, where as rage typically has it all into smash, with a channeled choke or crush just prior, 3 moves instead of 5, a lot more likely to happen.(charge+choke/crush+slam vs charge+massacre+scream+gore+ravage).

 

Though in PvE that would most definitively be true, I think I would still prefer a cc based tree then a burst, when there are so many other burst classes out there that simply do it better, and quicker. Since rage can't really change because its shared I think carnage would be good for what it's called..carnage!

[Drathmar]

Assuming your target stands still for the 5 seconds it takes to go through that rotation, and that's if you don't get interrupted during ravage. On paper it's probably better, I've yet to pvp anywhere open or in a wz where a target will stand still that long, where as rage typically has it all into smash, with a channeled choke or crush just prior, 3 moves instead of 5, a lot more likely to happen.(charge+choke/crush+slam vs charge+massacre+scream+gore+ravage).

 

Though in PvE that would most definitively be true, I think I would still prefer a cc based tree then a burst, when there are so many other burst classes out there that simply do it better, and quicker. Since rage can't really change because its shared I think carnage would be good for what it's called..carnage!

 

 

okay.. full rotation

 

Force Charge (First Immobilize) -> Massacre -> Scream (gauranteed) -> Battering Assault -> Deadly Throw (2nd Immobilize) -> Gore -> Ravage (3rd Immobilize)

 

Yes it is longer, but it's also more reliable as you have more immobilization effects as well.

 

Also if they break out of choke, or you are stunned during choke you lose damage on smash which is already really low damage, it crits for like 1300 max without the double damage from choke/crush. If you are stunned during crush, you are still screwed as you don't stay close enough for smash, and it's AoE radius is quite low.

 

If we go by time as well it's not that big a difference as you have to wait for a full 3 seconds for force choke which means force choke = massacre + scream (3 seconds cause of GCD).

 

EDIT: To prove my point I did the math on them:

 

Charge = 1437

Choke = 2376 (3 seconds)

Smash = 1889 (x2)(x1.5)(x1.3)

Massacre = 328

Ataru = 298

Scream = 2549 (x1.3)(x1.5)(x1.3)

Battering Assault = 347

 

Charge + Choke + Smash = 9840

Charge + Massacre + Ataru+ Battering Assault + Scream = 8871

 

And this is using TorHeads messed up numbers for massacre and possibly ataru. There is no way force charge does more damage than massacre, so lets assume massacre does the same that would mean.

 

Charge + Massacre + Ataru + Battering Assault + Scream = 9980

 

So, it does more damage and uses the same amount of time (force choke counts as 2 abilities do to needing to channel for 3 seconds).

 

Crush (according to torhead) does less than choke and take 5 seconds to do all it's damage so no use even checking that.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Drathmar

[lord_mitoh]

okay.. full rotation

 

Force Charge (First Immobilize) -> Massacre -> Scream (gauranteed) -> Battering Assault -> Deadly Throw (2nd Immobilize) -> Gore -> Ravage (3rd Immobilize)

 

Yes it is longer, but it's also more reliable as you have more immobilization effects as well.

 

Also if they break out of choke, or you are stunned during choke you lose damage on smash which is already really low damage, it crits for like 1300 max without the double damage from choke/crush. If you are stunned during crush, you are still screwed as you don't stay close enough for smash, and it's AoE radius is quite low.

 

If we go by time as well it's not that big a difference as you have to wait for a full 3 seconds for force choke which means force choke = massacre + scream (3 seconds cause of GCD).

 

Just to throw it out there, even in your rotation if your stunned your dead already at the moment. If your stunned in a rage rotation it's because they broke out of theirs and now have you stunned or another player has shown up and now your 2v1 and your dead. The immobilize on force charge is very short, with a 1 second gcd for massacre and scream and battering assault plenty of time for them to apply any cc or escape they want and if they snared you, deadily saber even at 10m won't matter your chain is broken. If they stay choked they aren't moving. or cc'ing you back. First thing anyone should do to win against a marauder is snare, at least rage has obliterate to gain melee range a 2nd time, that also applies the same buff as charge.

[Drathmar]

See above, I edited to include the math. Also I think mine does about 2k more as vicious slash is rated at 4k and massacre + ataru does more damage than vicious slash according to people who have spec'd carnage. Edited December 30, 2011 by Drathmar

[lord_mitoh]

 

Charge = 1437

Choke = 2376 (3 seconds)

Smash = 1889 (x2)(x1.5)(x1.3)

Massacre = 328

Ataru = 298

Scream = 2549 (x1.3)(x1.5)(x1.3)

Battering Assault = 347

 

Charge + Choke + Smash = 9840

Charge + Massacre + Ataru+ Battering Assault + Scream = 8871

 

 

Charge + Massacre + Ataru + Battering Assault + Scream = 9980

 

so wait, 9840 vs 9980? really were talking a 140 damage difference?

 

If you had rage built up already Obliterate+choke+smash does significantly more then charge. I think if it was really down to 140 damage difference for a non-burst specific dps tree to be only that far off from a what should be a pure dps burst tree, we have a problem with the design of the tree...

[Drathmar]

so wait, 9840 vs 9980? really were talking a 140 damage difference?

 

If you had rage built up already Obliterate+choke+smash does significantly more then charge. I think if it was really down to 140 damage difference for a non-burst specific dps tree to be only that far off from a what should be a pure dps burst tree, we have a problem with the design of the tree...

 

As I said, the carnage one is off because torheads numbers are crap.

 

Massacre + Ataru strike in that scenerio using their numbers does 626 total damage.

 

Vicious Slash on torhead does 4351 damage. So Massacre + Ataru should do more than that... lets just say 4400.

 

Means a difference of 3774, which means realistically, the carnage burst is 13754 or thereabouts.

 

All the numbers for the rage abilities look correct or more on at least so this should be a more correct comparison.

 

Which means carnage does around 3900 more burst.

 

Now if you wanna say hey if I already had rage built up I can use obliterate instead of charge. Okay fine, then I can use vicious slash instead of charge and increase my number by another 4k. Or Use gore before scream instead of assault so scream has 100% armor pen (kinetic damage is affected by armor iirc) drastically increasing it's damage.

[lord_mitoh]

As I said, the carnage one is off because torheads numbers are crap.

 

Massacre + Ataru strike in that scenerio using their numbers does 626 total damage.

 

Vicious Slash on torhead does 4351 damage. So Massacre + Ataru should do more than that... lets just say 4400.

 

Means a difference of 3774, which means realistically, the carnage burst is 13754 or thereabouts.

 

All the numbers for the rage abilities look correct or more on at least so this should be a more correct comparison.

 

Which means carnage does around 3900 more burst.

 

Now if you wanna say hey if I already had rage built up I can use obliterate instead of charge. Okay fine, then I can use vicious slash instead of charge and increase my number by another 4k. Or Use gore before scream instead of assault so scream has 100% armor pen (kinetic damage is affected by armor iirc) drastically increasing it's damage.

 

torhead numbers issue aside I'm not convinced your numbers are right either, if you were doing 14k burst dps, hell with rage pre-built up(not hard to do) lets add another 4, 18k burst dps. Then carnage marauders should able to walk up and destroy someone within 6-7 seconds.

 

You would be seeing the equal number of scoundral hate threads to marauder hate threads in terms of pvp domination. Even with armor reduction you only need to score ~12k burst post redux, that's a 33% reduction which is more then most classes have.

 

I've yet to see a carnage spec do that to anyone of equal level. Then what your on a 12 second cooldown before starting the rotation over? Rage can start it instanty using the force crush and charge instead of obliterate and choke, though would be slower the 2nd time around and not quite as high, I think your still doing more dps/cc overall rage then carnage. Until some numbers get proven reliable there's no end to the argument.

[Aztian]

...on what makes marauders unique from the other classes. What I'm getting at is, juggernauts have force push and aoe snares and things, inquisitor can heal and use force lightning, assassin has cloak and force pull, sniper has cover and really long range, operatives have stealth and high cc with healing and decent dps, powertechs have death from above and shields, mercenaries have their rockets and jetpack abilities, with some healing.

 

Marauders have...a 2nd saber that adds a very piddly amount of damage that doesn't affect game-play at all...we don't have any unique force abilities that a jugg doesn't already have.

 

In addition to all the other threads about marauders, the more i look and analyze the class the more I think what happened was they did marauder's last and said.."Uhm, we ran out of idea's".

 

Yeah Youre so right

[EasymodeX]

Please use more effective relative numbers (note: I take no credit for these numbers, see the sithwarrior.com forums for more specific details):

 

Force Crush DoT 3199

Annihilate 2866

Vicious Throw 2 2583

Ravage 7 1 2403

Force Scream 8 1772

Rupture 5 1681

Vicious Slash 10 1579

Obliterate 1518

Massacre 1346

Gore 1342

Retaliation 8 1339

Smash 8 1280

Deadly Saber 1039

Assault 1031

Battering Assault 7 1031

Wounding Throw 4 1009

Force Choke 4 967

Sweeping Slash 3 907

Force Charge 9 823

Crippling Slash 4 510

Ataru Form 297

 

Talents not included.

[Drathmar]

Please use more effective relative numbers (note: I take no credit for these numbers, see the sithwarrior.com forums for more specific details):

 

Force Crush DoT 3199

Annihilate 2866

Vicious Throw 2 2583

Ravage 7 1 2403

Force Scream 8 1772

Rupture 5 1681

Vicious Slash 10 1579

Obliterate 1518

Massacre 1346

Gore 1342

Retaliation 8 1339

Smash 8 1280

Deadly Saber 1039

Assault 1031

Battering Assault 7 1031

Wounding Throw 4 1009

Force Choke 4 967

Sweeping Slash 3 907

Force Charge 9 823

Crippling Slash 4 510

Ataru Form 297

 

Talents not included.

 

Using these numbers (modified by talents as noted below):

 

Ataru Form: 297 x (1.3) = 386 [Ataru Master + 30% Damage]

Force Scream: 1772 x (1.5 + 0.3)) = 3012 [Auto crit from Towering Rage and +30% crit from Sever]

Obliterate: 1518 x (1.06) = 1609 [+6% damage from Saber Strength]

Smash: 1280 x (2) = 2560 x (1.5 = 0.3) = 4352 [x2 from shockwave, auto crit from dominate, and 30% more crit damage from Dark Resonance]

 

 

 

Obliterate + Crush + Smash = 9160

Charge + Massacre + Ataru Form + Scream = 5567

 

So wow, you are right using real numbers, and I admit there is quite a problem with this in that case and I was wrong.

[lord_mitoh]

Using these numbers (modified by talents as noted below):

 

Ataru Form: 297 x (1.3) = 386 [Ataru Master + 30% Damage]

Force Scream: 1772 x (1.5 + 0.3)) = 3012 [Auto crit from Towering Rage and +30% crit from Sever]

Obliterate: 1518 x (1.06) = 1609 [+6% damage from Saber Strength]

Smash: 1280 x (2) = 2560 x (1.5 = 0.3) = 4352 [x2 from shockwave, auto crit from dominate, and 30% more crit damage from Dark Resonance]

 

 

 

Obliterate + Crush + Smash = 9160

Charge + Massacre + Ataru Form + Scream = 5567

 

So wow, you are right using real numbers, and I admit there is quite a problem with this in that case and I was wrong.

 

Dear god that is worse then I thought it was. At least we have some numbers to go by and hopefully BW will read this far into this post, cause that is a huge problem that needs addressed, as well as a place to start anyway.

[lord_mitoh]

even charge+choke+smash would be somewhere around 6-8k depending on talents, also does smash give a 2.25 bonus instead of just 2? technically its 25% per tick, and crush does 5 tickets instead of choke's 4, but I don't know if it caps out at 100% or 125, in which it would hit even a little bit harder.

 

(what's really sad is juggs do even more damage with rage then mara's do, and this is our best burst dps tree..)

Edited December 30, 2011 by lord_mitoh