UNDER not circumstances do not remove 200/100 win requirement for team ranked

[JediMasterAlex]

This is only the beginning. First they don't start at certain time, then it will start later and later and in the end you will have like 3-4 pops per day.

 

It's possible. But there have been lulls like this before in past seasons as well. 6.1.1 will probably revitalize it, at least for a time. Even now, I'm still steadily getting wins every night. We don't have any hackers or bots in solos on SF that I'm aware of.

Edited April 8, 2020 by JediMasterAlex

[Nickodemous]

I don't really know how to respond to a post like this to be honest. I assume you're trolling. All I'll say is I've been queueing and getting steady pops for the last 2+ hours. They've been pretty good games, some of them quite high quality.

 

It is sad that the pops don't start until about 9-10pm now. They used to start a lot earlier, but we are where we are.

 

Believe what you want. You consistently seem to deny that there is anything wrong with ranked. But, you said it yourself, start times are being pushed back. Yet another manipulation, that can be added to a list, that excludes others from participating. Now really, who is trolling who here? The camp that is saying something is wrong or those, like yourself, who consistently defend the current state.

[Sertar]

Believe what you want. You consistently seem to deny that there is anything wrong with ranked. But, you said it yourself, start times are being pushed back. Yet another manipulation, that can be added to a list, that excludes others from participating. Now really, who is trolling who here? The camp that is saying something is wrong or those, like yourself, who consistently defend the current state.

 

How is it possible that the most active people in this forum (an activity that basically consists of reading and writing) all seem to have failed their reading comprehension test at school back in the day?

 

He consistently says himself that Ranked is in bad shape. They only thing he consistently denies is that he is responsible for system manipulations, which is a fair thing to do if you ask me, especially if there is no proof.

 

I really don't get where people making these accusations get their juice from. I can understand any frustration in regards to Ranked and some manipulation is definitely happening. But why does it always hits the people, who seem to understand the problems and try to make the best out of it, the most?

Edited April 9, 2020 by Sertar

[Nickodemous]

How is it possible that the most active people in this forum (an activity that basically consists of reading and writing) all seem to have failed their reading comprehension test at school back in the day?

 

He consistently says himself that Ranked is in bad shape. They only thing he consistently denies is that he is responsible for system manipulations, which is a fair thing to do if you ask me, especially if there is no proof.

 

I really don't get where people making these accusations get their juice from. I can understand any frustration in regards to Ranked and some manipulation is definitely happening. But why does it always hits the people, who seem to understand the problems and try to make the best out of it, the most?

 

Don't be ignorant here. The problem I have with this entire situation is that players, like myself, have been more or less blackballed from ranked. I have played thousands of ranked matches on multiple toons and on several servers. Why, anonymity. I don't guild anymore, play many toons, and have 0 peps on my friends list now. Once people figure out what toon I have been focusing on....you can forget it. All matches are manipulated. A prime example is Pepe'Nero on SF. I rarely play her anymore because of all the hate. Sad the pvp community has gotten to this point but just how it is now.

[JediMasterAlex]

Believe what you want. You consistently seem to deny that there is anything wrong with ranked.

 

I don't though...there are clearly problems with solo ranked and I talk about them all the time. Low population is certainly one of the biggest ones. Excessive kicking is another. There used to be other problems, such as people getting gold/top 3 with like 30 wins, and people leaving games with impunity. But they added win requirements and a 15 minute timeout and -50 elo for people that leave early. Bioware has taken some tangible steps that have improved ranked, so hopefully they'll continue doing that.

 

He consistently says himself that Ranked is in bad shape. They only thing he consistently denies is that he is responsible for system manipulations, which is a fair thing to do if you ask me, especially if there is no proof.

 

I appreciate the support. The main thing that bothers me about many of the ranked detractors on these forums is that they grossly exaggerate ranked's problems or just downright make stuff up, because they don't play it. And so I point out when they do so. That doesn't mean I think ranked is perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But I'm concerned with the actual problems ranked faces (on SF, can't really comment on DM as I don't play there), not what is going on in the fantasies of the people that only read about ranked on the forums.

 

The saddest part is that we could have many more productive conversations about the problems in ranked if people operated on the actual facts. Instead I have to spend a lot of time just correcting people.

 

Don't be ignorant here. The problem I have with this entire situation is that players, like myself, have been more or less blackballed from ranked. I have played thousands of ranked matches on multiple toons and on several servers. Why, anonymity. I don't guild anymore, play many toons, and have 0 peps on my friends list now. Once people figure out what toon I have been focusing on....you can forget it. All matches are manipulated. A prime example is Pepe'Nero on SF. I rarely play her anymore because of all the hate. Sad the pvp community has gotten to this point but just how it is now.

 

What manipulation exactly? Do you mean that people are kicking you? If so, that really shouldn't be happening. I almost always speak out against unjustified kicks if I see it happening. But that's not matches really being "manipulated," that's just the toxic ranked people's attempt to bully you out of the queue. Again, I'm not trying to minimize it, because it's a real problem. I'm on the record saying that I think they should remove vote kick from ranked because it's being abused so much.

 

As an aside though, you really might try playing a class other than dps jugg (the worst class for solo ranked right now). Again, not saying you should have to, and it doesn't justify kicks, but sometimes you have to adapt to bad balance.

Edited April 9, 2020 by JediMasterAlex

[Nickodemous]

I don't though...there are clearly problems with solo ranked and I talk about them all the time. Low population is certainly one of the biggest ones. Excessive kicking is another. There used to be other problems, such as people getting gold/top 3 with like 30 wins, and people leaving games with impunity. But they added win requirements and a 15 minute timeout and -50 elo for people that leave early. Bioware has taken some tangible steps that have improved ranked, so hopefully they'll continue doing that.

 

What manipulation exactly? Do you mean that people are kicking you? If so, that really shouldn't be happening. I almost always speak out against unjustified kicks if I see it happening. But that's not matches really being "manipulated," that's just the toxic ranked people's attempt to bully you out of the queue. Again, I'm not trying to minimize it, because it's a real problem. I'm on the record saying that I think they should remove vote kick from ranked because it's being abused so much.

 

As an aside though, you really might try playing a class other than dps jugg (the worst class for solo ranked right now). Again, not saying you should have to, and it doesn't justify kicks, but sometimes you have to adapt to bad balance.

 

 

I agree, you are often very well balanced with most of your arguments. I have respected your opinion in the past but, here, you cannot seem to grasp the fact that:

 

1) the reason there is a low population is because the tiny existing ranked community often controls the venue for their own self-serving benefit.

 

2) There is a lot more going on, behind the scenes, than just excessive kicking. You are being rather naïve if you think this is not the case.

 

Ok, I can count on one hand how many times I have been kicked from a match. In those matches, it was normally after an obvious win and, to be ******, they kicked seconds before the match ended. Meh...I don't let that bother me. Whatever.

 

As far as the manipulation, it does not matter. I will continue to do what I have been doing. You all are playing against me....just don't know it.

 

Also, obvious toons like Clandestu, Tyranticus, Ty'zor, and Pepe.....you will only see them from time to time....for sentimental reasons. I will play them still in regs….just for fun....and, as I have all ready mentioned, I am aware of the jugg/guardian situation and don't bring them in very often because of it.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Nickodemous

[JediMasterAlex]

1) the reason there is a low population is because the tiny existing ranked community often controls the venue for their own self-serving benefit.

 

Partially. I'd agree that this is a problem, but it's not black and white. Some people really aren't ready for ranked and need to be told so. Others with full gear and reasonable competence often have to deal with unfair treatment just because they're perceived as "bad" and that shouldn't really be happening.

 

And it is self-serving, but the reason people kick is because they don't want the "bots" in their games, which I can sympathize with, but everyone has to start somewhere.

 

2) There is a lot more going on, behind the scenes, than just excessive kicking. You are being rather naïve if you think this is not the case.

 

Is there? On Star Forge? When and by whom? During seasons 10 and 11, I personally saw plenty of wintrading and other nonsense, but I have not this season. Genuinely, if you have names or stuff that you think is happening, either describe it here or PM me and I'd love to hear about it.

Edited April 9, 2020 by JediMasterAlex

[DavidAtkinson]

Partially. I'd agree that this is a problem, but it's not black and white. Some people really aren't ready for ranked and need to be told so. Others with full gear and reasonable competence often have to deal with unfair treatment just because they're perceived as "bad" and that shouldn't really be happening.

 

And it is self-serving, but the reason people kick is because they don't want the "bots" in their games, which I can sympathize with, but everyone has to start somewhere.

 

 

 

Is there? On Star Forge? When and by whom? During seasons 10 and 11, I personally saw plenty of wintrading and other nonsense, but I have not this season. Genuinely, if you have names or stuff that you think is happening, either describe it here or PM me and I'd love to hear about it.

 

On darth malgus I had people telling me that some ranked players sit on discord and just kind of control the scene. I don't know what this means, nor do I care if it's true or not, I am telling you what others have told me and I have some chats with one or two ranked players on discord who say that player x, or player y wintrades with player c, and player d . Again, I have no idea if these are true or not. This is what people talk about .

 

Now for the part where you say that some people aren't ready fro ranked. True, I suppose if you are talking about people who have absolutely no clue about how to play their class, have no gear and things like that,. but from my experience even decent players with good gear get trashed a lot for making mistakes.

 

And honestly this is my problem and one of the reasons ranked is.. a ghost town with same faces all the time in que. And like you said it yourself, some people are just viewed as trash just because they made mistakes or aren't part of the " elite club" of players on the server.This can discourage people from participating because it's creates stress whereas this is a game and people should have fun EVEN if it's a competition. It's still a game.

 

The problem is that a lot of... veteran ranked players do not think it should be fun and because it's ranked, it should be toxic also because it's like that in every game.

 

I know you consider team ranked irrelevant, but when it popped during those 2 season it offered mats, it was way more fun than SR ever was . Why ? everyone won in the end. mat farmers got their mats, elites got their shiny pixel rewards, decent teams had some good games and bad games. Was it fair ? Top spots were mostly players who farmed mat farmers 80% of the time and avg teams that qued for fun , but it wasn't as toxic as SR because in the end everyone was a winner in their own way by getting what they were after. I

Edited April 9, 2020 by DavidAtkinson

[JediMasterAlex]

Now for the part where you say that some people aren't ready fro ranked. True, I suppose if you are talking about people who have absolutely no clue about how to play their class, have no gear and things like that,. but from my experience even decent players with good gear get trashed a lot for making mistakes.

 

Yeah, pretty much.

 

And honestly this is my problem and one of the reasons ranked is.. a ghost town with same faces all the time in que. And like you said it yourself, some people are just viewed as trash just because they made mistakes or aren't part of the " elite club" of players on the server.This can discourage people from participating because it's creates stress whereas this is a game and people should have fun EVEN if it's a competition. It's still a game.

 

Sometimes it's funny when the "elite club" as you put it talk trash to players that are better than them :0

 

I know you consider team ranked irrelevant, but when it popped during those 2 season it offered mats, it was way more fun than SR ever was . Why ? everyone won in the end. mat farmers got their mats, elites got their shiny pixel rewards, decent teams had some good games and bad games. Was it fair ? Top spots were mostly players who farmed mat farmers 80% of the time and avg teams that qued for fun , but it wasn't as toxic as SR because in the end everyone was a winner in their own way by getting what they were after. I

 

I understand that perspective, but I still disagree. People farming mat farmers and dodging other decent teams don't deserve the rewards that they got, and it's good that that stopped for that reason alone.

Edited April 10, 2020 by JediMasterAlex

[Lhancelot]

I understand that perspective, but I still disagree. People farming mat farmers and dodging other decent teams don't deserve the rewards that they got, and it's good that that stopped for that reason alone.

 

This right here shows how impossible you are when it comes to reasoning and ranked whether it's solo or team ranked. You just admitted here that a DEAD game mode is better than a healthy active one.

 

Please explain how the game benefits by having an entire game mode shut down when mat incentives were pulled away?

 

The problem was what exactly, if it served the greater purpose which is made ranked active and gave people a reason to queue for it? It's sort of like a medication that is prescribed off brand, you know...

 

I don't even think BW understood just how much life adding mat rewards to team ranked created. In this circumstance you got to consider the big picture here.

 

I think It's shortsighted to count out the benefits of material rewards when we have proof now that it actually gave life to team ranked.

 

Another excellent part about team ranked is, it's as balanced as can be because teams constructed are going to be better matched up, and there's far less match manipulation when you have opposing teams configured to do battle versus many other teams versus as it is now when there's probably zero teams in the team ranked queue right now as we speak. How this is a good change is beyond me.

 

I can tell you that way less shenanigans goes on in team ranked than solo ranked, and there's no question about that especially when team ranked was active those couple years. People I had seen who had left game came back to it just for team ranked. Guess what now, they are all gone again.

 

(How do I know this? Well, easy. I know for a fact solo ranked is chalk full of shenanigans because every year I played in it, yes, IN IT, I witnessed all the garbage cheating and match manipulation with my own eyes. How do I know team ranked wasn't this bad? I have friends that ONLY do team ranked, they do not do solo ranked, and they used to tell me in great detail how enjoyable ranked was especially with the quality of matches they got against all the other teams that ranked high in ELO like my pals teams did. They had high quality matches, and I believe them they have no reason to lie about it.)

 

Forum activity even noticeably dropped btw over the last couple years since team rank died, because some of those players from that niche were on the forums, too. Just a small microcosm of another area being affected due to a lack of population and it's apparent here, too. I know this because the guys that do team ranked who I am very familiar with are not on the forums now, and they are not in the game now. They went to another game that offers PVP that doesn't offer a dead game mode.

 

 

 

 

 

TL;DR: Why team ranked ought to have material rewards.

 

My point is sometimes a solution isn't perfect, but it works. In this case, BW is wrong, you are wrong about mat farming. In theory I can see why it's not liked, but when the reality is it actually revived team ranked and gave it life it had not had for years they ought to consider that and leave it be or alter it so that the incentives are still there and people still want to queue up for it. By gutting it entirely, they destroyed it. As par for the course with many facets btw (conquest, crafting, gearing, etc.) Now, as is usually par for the course, we have to wait for them to come back around and fix it. And, as what often times is the fix, adding back what they removed will probably help.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Lhancelot

[JediMasterAlex]

This right here shows how impossible you are when it comes to reasoning and ranked whether it's solo or team ranked. You just admitted here that a DEAD game mode is better than a healthy active one.

 

I wouldn't consider a game mode that consisted of decent teams farming mat farmers and dodging other decent teams "healthy" by any stretch. It was already dead as far as I'm concerned.

 

Please explain how the game benefits by having an entire game mode shut down when mat incentives were pulled away?

 

People that farmed mat farmers and dodged other decent teams no longer get ranked rewards that they do not deserve. I've explained this many times. It's just my perspective though, you don't have to share it.

 

I can tell you that way less shenanigans goes on in team ranked than solo ranked, and there's no question about that especially when team ranked was active those couple years. People I had seen who had left game came back to it just for team ranked. Guess what now, they are all gone again.

 

Utter nonsense. It is infinitely easier to wintrade in team ranked...for the most obvious reasons. In the past, a huge proportion of the wintrading happening at like 4am on dead servers was via team ranked. Not to mention that farming mat farmers is basically "shenanigans" in and of itself.

 

(How do I know this? Well, easy. I know for a fact solo ranked is chalk full of shenanigans because every year I played in it, yes, IN IT, I witnessed all the garbage cheating and match manipulation with my own eyes. How do I know team ranked wasn't this bad? I have friends that ONLY do team ranked, they do not do solo ranked, and they used to tell me in great detail how enjoyable ranked was especially with the quality of matches they got against all the other teams that ranked high in ELO like my pals teams did. They had high quality matches, and I believe them they have no reason to lie about it.)

 

If we were posting on the forums in 2017, maybe this would be relevant. It's 2020. All of this is completely meaningless because you've only played a handful of matches in the past 2 years. You have no clue what is happening or who is participating in either solo or team ranked.

 

I'll ask you again, if you have any evidence whatsoever of anyone cheating in solo ranked on SF at the moment, please let me know who it is, when they're doing it, and how they're doing it. That way I could verify it for myself and report them.

 

My point is sometimes a solution isn't perfect, but it works. In this case, BW is wrong, you are wrong about mat farming. In theory I can see why it's not liked, but when the reality is it actually revived team ranked and gave it life it had not had for years they ought to consider that and leave it be or alter it so that the incentives are still there and people still want to queue up for it. By gutting it entirely, they destroyed it. As par for the course with many facets btw (conquest, crafting, gearing, etc.) Now, as is usually par for the course, we have to wait for them to come back around and fix it. And, as what often times is the fix, adding back what they removed will probably help.

 

Again, I understand this perspective and you're not alone in holding it. But in my opinion mat farmers totally ruins the integrity of the entire game mode. It's not "ranked" in any meaningful sense when mediocre players can get to top 3 just by farming mat farmers. The devs clearly agreed and made the right decision.

Edited April 11, 2020 by JediMasterAlex

[bladech]

I wouldn't consider a game mode that consisted of decent teams farming mat farmers and dodging other decent teams "healthy" by any stretch. It was already dead as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

 

People that farmed mat farmers and dodged other decent teams no longer get ranked rewards that they do not deserve. I've explained this many times. It's just my perspective though, you don't have to share it.

 

 

 

Utter nonsense. It is infinitely easier to wintrade in team ranked...for the most obvious reasons. In the past, a huge proportion of the wintrading happening at like 4am on dead servers was via team ranked. Not to mention that farming mat farmers is basically "shenanigans" in and of itself.

 

 

 

If we were posting on the forums in 2017, maybe this would be relevant. It's 2020. All of this is completely meaningless because you've only played a handful of matches in the past 2 years. You have no clue what is happening or who is participating in either solo or team ranked.

 

I'll ask you again, if you have any evidence whatsoever of anyone cheating in solo ranked on SF at the moment, please let me know who it is, when they're doing it, and how they're doing it. That way I could verify it for myself and report them.

 

 

 

Again, I understand this perspective and you're not alone in holding it. But in my opinion mat farmers totally ruins the integrity of the entire game mode. It's not "ranked" in any meaningful sense when mediocre players can get to top 3 just by farming mat farmers. The devs clearly agreed and made the right decision.

 

You must understand there is no perfection in swtor ranked. From bad choices devs must chose the best one but not the worst one even if this best one will be bad overall. During mat farming era we had mat farmers, queue dodgers, decent teams and top teams hunting each other to get wins and queue dodging wasn't really successful (from my personal and other dodgers experience) since you never know which teams are in queue, how skilled they are and what chars they will swap to. There were many moments when dodgers queued team ranked thinking that no stronger teams are in queue but got a pop against stronger team which were playing on random characters that haven't showed up in team ranked before. Queue dodge wasn't really an issue especially considering that matchmaking system always puts teams with big rating against other teams with big rating rather than matching them against mat farmers.

 

And what we have now is total disaster. Bots and pure wintraDING in team ranked, players who like team ranked unsub and quit swtor because of team ranked being dead, absolutely no fair teams in queue, dead content. This variant of team ranked existence is much worse compared to what we had in mat farming era. Game is more dead and more flexible for wintraders in and bot users

Edited April 11, 2020 by bladech

[JediMasterAlex]

There were many moments when dodgers queued team ranked thinking that no stronger team in queue but got a pop against stronger team which were playing on random characters which haven't showed up in team ranked before.

 

Yeah, and then what happened? The team that lost to the better team stopped queueing for the night and waited to try again when there were no better teams in queue. The fact that decent teams played each other on rare occasions does not change my argument.

 

And what we have now is total disaster - bots and pure wintraDING in team ranked, players who like team ranked unsub and quit swtor because of team ranked being dead, absolutely no fair teams in queue, dead content. This variant of team ranked existence is much worse compared to what we had in mat farming era. Game is more dead and more flexible for wintraders in and bot users

 

Wintrading in team ranked is meaningless right now, because unless they get to 200 wins, they're not getting top 3. So you would have a great point here, but the win requirements already solved it.

[bladech]

Yeah, and then what happened? The team that lost to the better team stopped queueing for the night and waited to try again when there were no better teams in queue. The fact that decent teams played each other on rare occasions does not change my argument.

 

yeah but when they try next time they get against other good team and so on. There are always good teams in queue as soon as team ranked is alive. So pops were always guaranteed for EVERYONE and wintraders had no chances.

 

Wintrading in team ranked is meaningless right now, because unless they get to 200 wins, they're not getting top 3. So you would have a great point here, but the win requirements already solved it.

 

Many of them trying to get gold too and 100 wins with wintrading or with so called KICK-BALLS, events or how they call it. Now players who want easy gold just asking weak people to queue for credits/other rewards and farming them with no competition.

 

Besides, no one knows if devs won't reduce the amount of wins needed to get rewards for tr. iN THE end of the season the may say "Considering that team ranked was less active in this season we reduce the amount of wins needed for top 3 to 100 wins and for gold to 50 wins". In this case all wintraders, bot users, and kick-ballers will get easy titles

 

wHILE legit players who just want to queue tr and get pops can't get pops and just quiting the game.

 

So compared to mat farming era, this system is MUCh worse.

[JediMasterAlex]

Besides, no one knows if devs won't reduce the amount of wins needed to get rewards for tr. iN THE end of the season the may say "Considering that team ranked was less active in this season we reduce the amount of wins needed for top 3 to 100 wins and for gold to 50 wins". In this case all wintraders, bot users, and kick-ballers will get easy titles

 

wHILE legit players who just want to queue tr and get pops can't get pops and just quiting the game.

 

So compared to mat farming era, this system is MUCh worse.

 

It's only worse if they remove the win requirements. I agree with you that if that happened, it would be a terrible thing. Unless I'm mistaken, that's the original point of this thread lol. I really, really hope Bioware sticks to their guns and keeps the win requirements in place for both solo and group ranked, otherwise the wrong people will get rewards.

Edited April 11, 2020 by JediMasterAlex

[bladech]

It's only worse if they remove the win requirements. I agree with you that if that happened, it would be a terrible thing. Unless I'm mistaken, that's the original point of this thread lol. I really, really hope Bioware sticks to their guns and keeps the win requirements in place for both solo and group ranked, otherwise the wrong people will get rewards.

 

the possibility of reducing win requirement for corrupted team ranked is the worst thing which might happen yet not the only one. yesterday 3 of my friends quited from swtor because team ranked isn't popping and they tired from solo ranked. Such thing continues all over servers. People want pops against all kinds of teams - bad, good, decent etc, they want TO PLAY. TO play is what games are made for but when certain types of content are dead or just infected by wintraders/bots only this causes many problems. Iam confident that previous mat farming system with its drawback of few dodgers trying to get free wins (which didn't work much anyway though) is still a better way for swtor overall compared to what we have now

[JediMasterAlex]

the possibility of reducing win requirement for corrupted team ranked is the worst thing which might happen yet not the only one. yesterday 3 of my friends quited from swtor because team ranked isn't popping and they tired from solo ranked. Such thing continues all over servers. People want pops against all kinds of teams - bad, good, decent etc, they want TO PLAY. TO play is what games are made for but when certain types of content are dead or just infected by wintraders/bots only this causes many problems. Iam confident that previous mat farming system with its drawback of few dodgers trying to get free wins (which didn't work much anyway though) is still a better way for swtor overall compared to what we have now

 

As I've said, I understand this perspective. We can agree to disagree. After all, it's not up to any of us anyway lol

[Sertar]

Again, I understand this perspective and you're not alone in holding it. But in my opinion mat farmers totally ruins the integrity of the entire game mode. It's not "ranked" in any meaningful sense when mediocre players can get to top 3 just by farming mat farmers. The devs clearly agreed and made the right decision.

I understand that perspective, but I still disagree. People farming mat farmers and dodging other decent teams don't deserve the rewards that they got, and it's good that that stopped for that reason alone.

It's nice to see Lhance and you are back to an actual discussion here. In the other thread it felt a bit like kindergarten, ngl.

 

And surprisingly for me, I agree with Lhance on this topic. Your argument invalidates itself. And season 11 is the proof.

 

Yes, mat farmers lead to ELO inflation. Inflation makes it look like the ones at the top are far more ahead of their competition than the skill difference might actually be. But atleast the players on top ARE the best, and because of higher population the integrity of the game mode is saved.

 

The issue of dodging and how it solves itself was already described by Bladech accurately. Doesn't mean that in mat farmer times there was no wintrading though, oh there definitely was.

 

But I think we all agree that S11 TR was the worst case scenario: dead game mode, mediocre players getting undeserved rewards, massive cheating.

 

Wintrading in team ranked is meaningless right now, because unless they get to 200 wins, they're not getting top 3. So you would have a great point here, but the win requirements already solved it.

It might be meaningless for top3, but leaderboards exist too. Some people don't go by top3 titles but by leaderboards to get a picture of who's good and who's not. While this is a minor "problem", although it would lead to a fundamental discussion about the meaning of Ranked, the Gaming scene and Everything (who got the reference? ), by constantly saying how irrelevant Team Ranked is and how relevant Solo Ranked is in contrast (which is not wrong), you're trying to vote for the current compromise, which is objectively a worse one than having all player types forming teams for ingame objectives making sure that the main issue of ranked (bodies in the queue) is reduced.

[JediMasterAlex]

It's nice to see Lhance and you are back to an actual discussion here. In the other thread it felt a bit like kindergarten, ngl.

 

If people want to make legitimate points about the state of the game, then that can lead to actual discussion. I won't stand for nonsense being spewed though, which can then lead to the kind of stuff you've seen. People can criticize me for it all they want, but if I just ignored the lies and exaggerations spread about ranked, even more people would believe such things.

 

Yes, mat farmers lead to ELO inflation. Inflation makes it look like the ones at the top are far more ahead of their competition than the skill difference might actually be. But atleast the players on top ARE the best, and because of higher population the integrity of the game mode is saved.

 

If the mediocre mat farming teams queue more than the actual top teams, they can easily end up with similar or even higher ratings. They simply waited for the best teams to get off and farmed the mat farmers. While I didn't participate, I know people that actively did this very thing all the time on SF. And even if all of the top most spots really were the best, tons of people got gold that they didn't deserve. To me, that's a rather serious problem. It undermines the point of a "ranked" game mode if people can get rating and rewards that they haven't legitimately earned. Your and others response is essentially that that's a small price to pay for an "alive" game mode, and I simply disagree.

 

But I think we all agree that S11 TR was the worst case scenario: dead game mode, mediocre players getting undeserved rewards, massive cheating.

 

For sure, that's why the win requirements were such an excellent addition.

 

It might be meaningless for top3, but leaderboards exist too. Some people don't go by top3 titles but by leaderboards to get a picture of who's good and who's not.

 

Rating without the wins to back it up is meaningless. The top commando right now has only 40 wins, and is far from the best commando on SF. If that person were to queue regularly on that character, their rating would drop like a rock down to the 1300s very quickly. I think they should overhaul the leaderboards to match the new win requirements to be honest.

 

While this is a minor "problem", although it would lead to a fundamental discussion about the meaning of Ranked, the Gaming scene and Everything (who got the reference? ), by constantly saying how irrelevant Team Ranked is and how relevant Solo Ranked is in contrast (which is not wrong), you're trying to vote for the current compromise, which is objectively a worse one than having all player types forming teams for ingame objectives making sure that the main issue of ranked (bodies in the queue) is reduced.

 

Just having more people queue for ranked should not be the ultimate objective. I mean, if it were, they should just add mats to solo ranked as well. It will be a *****how in no time.

 

It may seem like I have a bias against group ranked, but I really don't. What I have a bias against is people thinking group ranked carries any weight when it's been a joke of a game mode for years. If it was alive and healthy with a plethora of good teams competing against each other on a regular basis, then I would be all for it.

Edited April 11, 2020 by JediMasterAlex

[omaan]

It's nice to see Lhance and you are back to an actual discussion here. In the other thread it felt a bit like kindergarten, ngl.

 

And surprisingly for me, I agree with Lhance on this topic. Your argument invalidates itself. And season 11 is the proof.

 

Yes, mat farmers lead to ELO inflation. Inflation makes it look like the ones at the top are far more ahead of their competition than the skill difference might actually be. But atleast the players on top ARE the best, and because of higher population the integrity of the game mode is saved.

 

The issue of dodging and how it solves itself was already described by Bladech accurately. Doesn't mean that in mat farmer times there was no wintrading though, oh there definitely was.

 

But I think we all agree that S11 TR was the worst case scenario: dead game mode, mediocre players getting undeserved rewards, massive cheating.

 

 

It might be meaningless for top3, but leaderboards exist too. Some people don't go by top3 titles but by leaderboards to get a picture of who's good and who's not. While this is a minor "problem", although it would lead to a fundamental discussion about the meaning of Ranked, the Gaming scene and Everything (who got the reference? ), by constantly saying how irrelevant Team Ranked is and how relevant Solo Ranked is in contrast (which is not wrong), you're trying to vote for the current compromise, which is objectively a worse one than having all player types forming teams for ingame objectives making sure that the main issue of ranked (bodies in the queue) is reduced.

 

As a guy who got my mando to top 1 mostly thanks to dodging i can confirm that dodging is a small issue. It is hard to dodge as bladech said because you never truly know who is in queue and keeping all top teams in friend list for dodging doesn't really help since unlike wow in swtor teams in ranked are rarely the same. Lets imagine like there are 4 players who queue together as team "alpha" and you want to dodge them. Their team consists of Bruno, bianka, reno and chica. On monday they queue all together and you can dodge them but in few hours they swap bianka and chica with nina and thor who are also skilled. Due to this your team may consider to queue since you are sure that team alpha isn't queuing because two of their members are offline but when you queue your team loses to same team alpha but with 2 new members. In addition to this you are never sure if there are any other decent teams in queue which can farm your team easily and no one really can see who is queuing team ranked in certain period.

 

PLUS, there is also other interesting thing about queue dodge. During The time when no top teams are in queue your team will have to fight other queue dodgers who are also smart enough to queue at the "right time". So there is also a competition among queue dodgers as well. Weak and unskilled queue dodgers won't have a chance to get even gold because they will be farmed either by top or decent teams or by other more skilled queue dodgers. So tbh, there always been proper competition among all teams.

 

What about wintraders and bot users? During seasons when tr was alive they had a hard time since every time they tried to wintrade or farm bots they were farmed by decent teams, top teams and queue dodgers. In an era of "elo hunters" wintraders and bot users didn't had a chance because there always were someone who interrupted and ruined their dirty dealings. The only small wintrade existed at those times was small wintrade at early mornings when normal players were sleeping and both team and solo ranked weren't popping at all. But such attempts of wintrade were too obvious and easy revealed by devs since no one would queue tr or sr legit at 6.00-7.00 a.m. when everyone is sleeping.

Edited April 11, 2020 by omaan

[JediMasterAlex]

As a guy who got my mando to top 1 mostly thanks to dodging i can confirm that dodging is a small issue.

 

huh? This is an illustration of my issue... Care to elaborate how you did it if it's so hard? Or did you just mistype this? lol

[omaan]

huh? This is an illustration of my issue... Care to elaborate how you did it if it's so hard? Or did you just mistype this? lol

 

read my full message and you will understand. THERE IS ALWAYS competition if team ranked is alive. even if you queue during time when top teams are offline you will have to fight either good teams or other queue dodgers. In this case queue dodgers lose to decent teams and less skilled queue dodgers LOSE TO MORE SKILLED QUEUE DODGERS. our team was both decent and queue dodging top teams so we easily farmed everyone except top teams who were unbeatable no-lifers. But it's still competition, we had to tryhard against decent teams and other queue dodgers (one of them were bladech, who didn't succeed in queue dodging because our team was much stronger).

Edited April 11, 2020 by omaan

[JediMasterAlex]

read my full message and you will understand. THERE IS ALWAYS competition if team ranked is alive. even if you queue during time when top teams are offline you will have to fight either good teams or other queue dodgers. In this case queue dodgers lose to decent teams and less skilled queue dodgers LOSE TO MORE SKILLED QUEUE DODGERS. our team was both decent and queue dodging top teams so we easily farmed everyone except top teams who were unbeatable no-lifers. But it's still competition, we had to tryhard against decent teams and other queue dodgers (one of them were bladech, who didn't succeed in queue dodging because our team was much stronger).

 

lol. This is literally the perfect example of why team ranked is better off the way it is. Everyone, please read the quoted text carefully and internalize it. Stain willingly admits to not being the best in queue. Yet he and his teammates got to top spots by queue dodging. Team ranked in that condition is fundamentally broken. End of story as far as I'm concerned.

Edited April 11, 2020 by JediMasterAlex

[septru]

I wouldn't consider a game mode that consisted of decent teams farming mat farmers and dodging other decent teams "healthy" by any stretch. It was already dead as far as I'm concerned.

 

For a player that never qued Team Ranked in s9 when it was revitalized by matts, you sure have a lot of opinions about them... Well let me tell you, your "opinions" are straight wrong. So lets actually look at the facts:

 

Fact: Matts resulted in an influx of players in TR. Yes it resulted in matt farmers, but it also resulted in top teams coming out of the wood works (teams that had previously played in other seasons) (even some teams came back to the game solely because of matts in TR), average teams forming up (your typical solo ranked stars), and mediocre teams (regs premades).

 

Fact: Not only were there brackets of different skilled teams, there were multiple teams within those brackets. As a player that actually qued during s9 TR, as admittedly on only an average team, I never saw matt farmers. It was impractical. When there are 10 other teams in que, at almost all times of the day, you are really placed with another team of comparable skill. It's hard to imagine because this game is so dead, but the elo and matchmaking system of this game is actually quite when there are enough players. In fact, even if there are only two teams in que, if one is 1500+ rated and the other is <1000 rated the que will increase the wait time you sit in que, even up to 30 minutes to get a que pop. For a 1750+ rated team (that was the threshold of gold at the time) to play against matt farmers (most likely sub 1000 elo) they would most definitely sit in 30 minute que times.

 

Fact: The influx of players in team ranked led to many learning more about arenas and getting overall better. Team Ranked is as "not toxic" as it comes. You choose the team members. So being able to que arenas in a game mode with no toxicity is a dream come true to many regs players that want to transition to ranked. Many different teams, of many different skill brackets progressively got better as they qued more TR. Mediocre teams (regs premades) learned about arenas and how to do actual damage. Average teams (solo ranked stars) began to understand aspects of the game that you can't learn through solo ranked. In fact, I have several friends, who like me, became much better solo ranked players through learning in TR. Top teams perfected their comps, practiced their classes to perfection. You could even see growth in matt farming teams. Some matt farmers didn't give a ****. They went in and stucked it. But some matt farming teams started to try and even began to establish tank/healer comps. While we may laugh at this "progressive" you have to remember that for them, this is significant progress. To the novice pvper like matt farmers, they don't even know the meta is tank/healer. I am sure most of them had never pvped before. But after TR, maybe some of them started pvping more often in regs?

 

TLDR: Matts in TR was the best thing to ever happen to it. It is misconception to believe that top teams ever went against matt farmers.

 

 

I will end with this aside that I hope definitively answers your "opinions" Caecus:

 

On Satele Shan (arguably the most alive server for TR, the other being DM) there was only 1 team that consistently farmed matt farmers. The team, comprised of bronze and silver solo ranked stars that were struggling to get gold, qued at off hours of the night against matt farmers and eventually got gold. They did que dodge good teams, and their rewards are not deserved. Several facts to note however about this team: 1) they did not que dodge successfully. Several top tier teams made it their mission to que snipe by going pub side. 2) eventually their que pops got insanely long. towards the end it was probably very grueling for them to sit in que just for a +5. 3) everyone knew that they farmed matt farmers. No one thinks that they are good. They don't have the respect of anyone, just as much as known wintraders don't have the respect of anyone.

 

At the end of the day, you can not look at a whole game mode, a plethora of positive impacts, and discredit it by its 1%. That would be like advising the devs to shut down solo ranked because 3 people wintrade on the Leviathan.

Edited April 11, 2020 by septru

[JediMasterAlex]

For a player that never qued Team Ranked in s9 when it was revitalized by matts, you sure have a lot of opinions about them... Well let me tell you, your "opinions" are straight wrong. So lets actually look at the facts:

 

I only started playing again at the tail end of s9 (and didn't play ranked seriously again until s10), so I freely admit to having very little firsthand knowledge of s9. But I played throughout season 10, and I did see first hand how team ranked was being played. I saw a bunch of teams only queue into mat farmers and get gold. I saw them drop out of queue when better teams got into queue. This behavior was extremely common on SF.

 

Look no further than Stain's admission that top spots were taken by teams that focused on farming mat farmers and dodging the best teams. Just because there were occasionally decent games doesn't mean that the system wasn't rotten.

 

At the end of the day, you can not look at a whole game mode, a plethora of positive impacts, and discredit it by its 1%. That would be like advising the devs to shut down solo ranked because 3 people wintrade on the Leviathan.

 

This is a decent point, but it's mainly an empirical question. Just as I didn't play on SS during that time, I'm pretty sure you weren't playing on SF, or at least not much, correct me if I'm wrong. My close observation of the situation led me to believe that it was much more than 1% of the teams were farming mat farmers and queue dodging. It was a foundational aspect of queueing at that time. People sought to do it on purpose to get rewards. I have no idea of an exact percentage, but it was not an insignificant number of teams doing it on SF.

 

Also, I've never advocated for group ranked to be shut down. I just don't think putting mats back in is the correct answer, because the negative consequences outweigh the positives.

Edited April 11, 2020 by JediMasterAlex