Increase the Aggro Range of Enemies in FPs/Ops

[decicco]

I play this game to play this game. Which means kill things. Why is it that the default for people to avoid as much as they can just to get items and points at the end? I BETA tested this game and I have yet to be in an Ops group where it wasn't cheesed to the boss, an the majority of group runs players will do whatever they can to avoid as many enemies as possible and then complain or kick me out of the group when I aggro things on purpose or accidental. I'm at the point where if they skip enemies after me joining within a minute, I leave.

 

Why pay a subscription to the game only to not play the game and go through the same not playing the game routine because you find joy in getting items and putting no effort into it?

 

Increase the aggro range, actually have people play the game.

[Elessara]

I play this game to play this game. Which means kill things. Why is it that the default for people to avoid as much as they can just to get items and points at the end? I BETA tested this game and I have yet to be in an Ops group where it wasn't cheesed to the boss, an the majority of group runs players will do whatever they can to avoid as many enemies as possible and then complain or kick me out of the group when I aggro things on purpose or accidental. I'm at the point where if they skip enemies after me joining within a minute, I leave.

 

Why pay a subscription to the game only to not play the game and go through the same not playing the game routine because you find joy in getting items and putting no effort into it?

 

Increase the aggro range, actually have people play the game.

 

Just because that's the way *you* play the game doesn't mean it's the *only* way to play the game.

[decicco]

Just because that's the way *you* play the game doesn't mean it's the *only* way to play the game.

 

I have to say the same.

[aerockyul]

It’s like using an oven versus a microwave. People just can’t be bothered. They have more important things to do than play the game, like, finish this mission and then stand on fleet for 45 minutes....or hurry up and finish so they can hurry up and play some other game that you’re keeping them from. They’re doing YOU the favor by even bothering to allow you to “play” with them between their busy schedule of standing on fleet or doing something unrelated to the game. The question isn’t why they bother to log in, but why you feel the need to slow them down from hurrying to wait to not play the game they logged into.

[Elessara]

I have to say the same.

 

Your entire op was basically saying that the devs should force people play the way you want to play because it's the only true way to play the game. I'm saying, no that isn't the only true way to play the game so I'm not really sure you can say the same. If you actually wanted to "say the same", you probably wouldn't have made this suggestion in the first place.

 

When I grouped/raided (I don't anymore) we weren't there to kill the trash mobs. We were there to kill the bosses. The bosses were the challenge, the trash mobs were just an annoyance. Speaking for myself, the whole point of an operation are the boss mobs not the mobs in between the bosses (although personally, if trying to bypass the trash took more time then actually killing then I would prefer to kill them).

 

Btw, to accomplish what you want they'd not only have to increase aggro range they'd also either have to remove stealth entirely or have every single mob see stealth which effectively removes stealth entirely. I doubt they're going to do that.

[decicco]

Stealth can still be an option. The argument presented to me is that I shouldn't force people to play the game I want, but my counter is that I shouldn't be forced to play the game that others want, which from my perspective is skipping. Clearly, playing with random players does not accomplish this goal, as it is guaranteed I will be forced to play this way, nor does wanting a game mechanic that allows me to play the game that I want to play the game. I want to experience the game as intended, but it is like pulling tooth and nail in order to do so.

 

While I want the devs to look at this, and the divisive nature of skipping or playing, clearly, I should not even bother with this portion of the game and continue with the single-player aspects, as to voice my opinion of this is met with heavy and verbose opposition.

Edited February 3, 2019 by decicco

[xordevoreaux]

Why is it that the default for people to avoid as much as they can just to get items and points at the end?

 

Maybe because I have 145 toons and I've done those things a thousand times and really don't feel like messing with trash mobs yet again.

[FlameYOL]

No, if you want to do the bonus series let the group know. Because killing everything just for the sake of it is quite pointless and a waste of everyone's time.

[decicco]

Unfortunately I have vary from a nice request to blunt and the same result with a disproportionate number of groups. The times it does happen are distinct and I can recall each instance.

[Tofu_Shark]

Stealth can still be an option. The argument presented to me is that I shouldn't force people to play the game I want, but my counter is that I shouldn't be forced to play the game that others want, which from my perspective is skipping. Clearly, playing with random players does not accomplish this goal, as it is guaranteed I will be forced to play this way, nor does wanting a game mechanic that allows me to play the game that I want to play the game. I want to experience the game as intended, but it is like pulling tooth and nail in order to do so.

 

While I want the devs to look at this, and the divisive nature of skipping or playing, clearly, I should not even bother with this portion of the game and continue with the single-player aspects, as to voice my opinion of this is met with heavy and verbose opposition.

I definitely share your frustration over this.

 

If you don't know (or for anyone who doesn't) You'll find many of the single-player elements have been changed because of a certain preferred style of play, forcing everyone to play in that style more or less. And the people that like these changes will fight you to the death to keep them.

 

 

• Did you like the "choosing your advanced class at Fleet?" Well too bad, we removed those NPCs and now you have to choose yours at character creation! We couldn't keep the NPCs optional, nor the choice to wait till Level 10 or to get to Fleet like we originally did with 4.0 for some asinine reason. We had to force a certain demographic's playstyle on everyone!
  
• Did you like picking up heroics from the NPCs that hand them out. Well guess what, we removed some of those because too many people don't bother with them and pick up the heroic missions at the terminals. We don't care about your "immersion." You're going to play like the majority of people whether you like it or not. Did you like turning them in to the NPCs? Oh we removed that long ago instead of giving you an option!
  
• Do you miss your old abilities? Well too bad! Those are never coming back, because we received too many complaints from PvP players about them. So instead of just changing those abilities for PvP, we forced those abilities on everyone whether you play PvP or not.
  
• Do you miss your companion's unique abilities? Well too bad! The game was too hard for some players, so we dumbed down companions by taking away their personalities in combat and stuck them all with the same ability sets for each role, instead of only giving those sets for their alternative roles. Now all your companions are boring (except certain newer, special companions, so we at Bioware have no excuse for this now)!
  
• Do you miss skill trees? Too bad! We got too many complaints from new players the game was too complex, and veterans also complained players were using the "wrong" skills from their trees. So now you can't customize your character's abilities to your playstyle.
  
• Do you miss stances and ammo types? Too bad! Veterans complained new players were using the wrong type for their role (and then not teaching them about them so they learn) so now we forced them on you as passives. Say goodbye to offtanking, you DPSs!
  

 

The only thing not on this list is the White Acute Module, as that was finally brought back, so you can stay at sane levels if you want to play through all the content of vanilla.

[SteveTheCynic]

* Do you miss your old abilities? Well too bad! Those are never coming back, because we received too many complaints from PvP players about them. So instead of just changing those abilities for PvP, we forced those abilities on everyone whether you play PvP or not

OK, let's take a look at how they could "split" abilities into PvP and PvE versions. Don't lecture me on how GW1 and GW2 have this feature. I'm well aware of that, having cut my MMORPG teeth on GW1 (even if you can argue about whether GW1 is properly an MMORPG) and continued into GW2.

 

So: In Warzones of all types, it's clear that PvP abiltiies are the way to go, with no doubts. Let's rewind the clock, though, and look at how it was before the PvE/PvP instance split in the main world. Let's ignore Outlaw's Den and the relevant bit of Ilum, and concentrate on the western end of the Glarus Valley map on Alderaan on Mantle of the Force, a PvE server, before the release of 3.0. And let's look at Kylath (a noobish level 32 Commando directed by SteveTheCynic) as she crosses the bridges there, fighting Thul and Ulgo bridge guards. Oh, and a level 29 red-name Sith player character who decides to get involved.

 

Which set of abilities should Kylath be using? PvP because she's fighting a red-name Sith player character? PvE because she's fighting NPCs? What if it gives an advantage against the player that I'm fighting with PvE abiltiies? What if it gives an advantage against the NPCs that I'm fighting with PvP abilities?

 

Does it matter whether I'm targeting the player, the companion, or the NPCs?

 

And so on. Clearly, it's possible to just pick one answer and run with it, but it won't be satisfactory to everyone. (I'd vote for PvP abilities in WZ, PvE elsewhere, because Guard already works like that, so everyone would know what to expect, although there's an interesting debate about Outlaws' Den and similar areas.)

* ]Do you miss skill trees? Too bad! We got too many complaints from new players the game was too complex, and veterans also complained players were using the "wrong" skills from their trees. So now you can't customize your character's abilities to your playstyle.

Please remember the reasons they cited: the change from skill trees to disciplines was made to simplify the task of balancing classes for PvP by reducing the number of weird "hybrid" combinations they had to consider. That is, it was for *their* convenience, not ours. Balancing PvP is really hard at the best of times, and skill trees do not count as "the best of times". (Ref: the problems with PvP balance in GW1, where the skill tree problem was even wilder, given the many hundreds of abilities available, and the oddball combinations of primary and secondary classes.)

* Do you miss stances and ammo types? Too bad! Veterans complained new players were using the wrong type for their role (and then not teaching them about them so they learn) so now we forced them on you as passives. Say goodbye to offtanking, you DPSs!

Offtanking is done differently now, but it's still there.

[decicco]

I definitely share your frustration over this.

 

If you don't know (or for anyone who doesn't) You'll find many of the single-player elements have been changed because of a certain preferred style of play, forcing everyone to play in that style more or less. And the people that like these changes will fight you to the death to keep them.

 

 

• Did you like the "choosing your advanced class at Fleet?" Well too bad, we removed those NPCs and now you have to choose yours at character creation! We couldn't keep the NPCs optional, nor the choice to wait till Level 10 or to get to Fleet like we originally did with 4.0 for some asinine reason. We had to force a certain demographic's playstyle on everyone!
  
• Did you like picking up heroics from the NPCs that hand them out. Well guess what, we removed some of those because too many people don't bother with them and pick up the heroic missions at the terminals. We don't care about your "immersion." You're going to play like the majority of people whether you like it or not. Did you like turning them in to the NPCs? Oh we removed that long ago instead of giving you an option!
  
• Do you miss your old abilities? Well too bad! Those are never coming back, because we received too many complaints from PvP players about them. So instead of just changing those abilities for PvP, we forced those abilities on everyone whether you play PvP or not.
  
• Do you miss your companion's unique abilities? Well too bad! The game was too hard for some players, so we dumbed down companions by taking away their personalities in combat and stuck them all with the same ability sets for each role, instead of only giving those sets for their alternative roles. Now all your companions are boring (except certain newer, special companions, so we at Bioware have no excuse for this now)!
  
• Do you miss skill trees? Too bad! We got too many complaints from new players the game was too complex, and veterans also complained players were using the "wrong" skills from their trees. So now you can't customize your character's abilities to your playstyle.
  
• Do you miss stances and ammo types? Too bad! Veterans complained new players were using the wrong type for their role (and then not teaching them about them so they learn) so now we forced them on you as passives. Say goodbye to offtanking, you DPSs!
  

 

The only thing not on this list is the White Acute Module, as that was finally brought back, so you can stay at sane levels if you want to play through all the content of vanilla.

 

You have hit so may points I have previously complained about.

 

Remember that you were able to get your lightsaber at an appropriate time in the story? Now it's "You have chosen your advanced class, here's your weapon," and then two hours later from the story gameplay, it's "This is your first lightsaber and you should cherish this moment." Someone did not check this/EA is in it for the money, which quite frankly is always the case and logic should be thrown out the window.

 

Picking up heroics was good, but sometimes I had a hard time finding one or two. While the terminal at fleet helps, it removes context as to why your character is doing what they're doing. It has been replaced with "Do here, do this." On some of the flashpoints on fleet, the ending convos are replaced with mission complete. That's it, go home, begin the grind again, hope you get matched with people who skip everything and just want the gear or credits.

 

Freaking orbital strike, snipe, and explosive probe on operative was fantastic when you couldn't close the gap, especially when the game came out and infinite stuns were available at close range. Explosive probes were also available on sinpers, not sure why that was removed, but I suspect it was because of PvP, which at the time consisted of Huttball of the same faction because it was impossible to get into any other match. While this has been fixed, the solution at the time was to remove abilities, not fix how players were matched. For the longest time, they missed the mark. Unfortunately, over the years, abilities continue to be removed in order to accommodate PvP.

 

Hk-51 had a unique ability that would 1-shot silvers, and getting HK-51 was worth it because you had to search the entire freaking galaxy for 2 meter areas where his components were. He was fantastic and powerful because of the effort put into him and now he's just "You found the needle in the haystack during a hurricane blindfolded and handcuffed? Here's a generic companion to go with every single one of your other generic companions." Or With Doctor Lokin how he could change into a rakgoul? That's gone forever.

 

Skill tress allowed me to customize. While I'm alight with the new system because it does allow for faster respec'ing to accommodate roles, there's virtually no customization to it, so now OUR toons are just about as cookie cutter as our companions. 30 toons and the only differences between them are the advanced class and whether or not they are Heals, Tank, or DPS. That's it. While Ilum when it came out was intended to be end-game content where the heroes of the galaxy met together to take down Malgus and that's why the stories had to align, EA and Bioware have decided our toons are nothing special anymore, and everyone now gets the same story, period. There are few and brief moments where character stories reemerge, but that's it.

 

Stances and ammo types fit with the previous category. It's easier to make the cookie when it comes out of the cutter, especially when it's a circle. A boring circle for how many years now?

[MorseGod]

Moving goalposts creates an incentive for perpetual grind. People aren't doing operations and flashpoints for enjoyment. They are playing them because the rewards for completing these activities are a necessary evil in getting the gear or items they want. Making it even more tedious wouldn't do anything other than cause players to leave the game.

 

The actual solution to your grievance is to simply give everyone the best gear / rewards in the game, and then they will only play the content they enjoy for its own sake. At that point, good luck finding anyone at all in operations or flashpoints.

[decicco]

Moving goalposts creates an incentive for perpetual grind. People aren't doing operations and flashpoints for enjoyment. They are playing them because the rewards for completing these activities are a necessary evil in getting the gear or items they want. Making it even more tedious wouldn't do anything other than cause players to leave the game.

 

The actual solution to your grievance is to simply give everyone the best gear / rewards in the game, and then they will only play the content they enjoy for its own sake. At that point, good luck finding anyone at all in operations or flashpoints.

 

This is my issue, people aren't playing the game to play the game. They're just going for the rewards and then get angry at me because they don't have the 15 minutes it takes to play the game, they would much rather build up gear and credits. And honestly, people aren't going to leave the game because EA and Bioware are going to do what they can to keep the masses. If the masses just want to throw money and brag about the decos and credits they have, EA will cater to them. And no, the actual solution is not to simply give people things because we're already so close to that to begin with.

 

What has become apparent to me is people will default to the path with least resistance, no matter what the course is. So because of the flak I have been getting because I actually want to play the content, much of which I have not been able to properly at all because of skippers, I am considering this forum closed and focusing on my efforts for Account-Ignore. Obviously, there are people I wish not to play with, I would like to add them to a personal global ignore list so I don't deal with this frustration.

 

Regardless of what has happened in this forum, go ahead and check out the other one as there is more common ground to congregate on.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=960188

[Tofu_Shark]

You have hit so may points I have previously complained about.

Picking up heroics was good, but sometimes I had a hard time finding one or two. While the terminal at fleet helps, it removes context as to why your character is doing what they're doing. It has been replaced with "Do here, do this." On some of the flashpoints on fleet, the ending convos are replaced with mission complete. That's it, go home, begin the grind again, hope you get matched with people who skip everything and just want the gear or credits.

Thanks, I forgot about the FPs. I'm not so bugged about the heroic terminal, because if you read the descriptions, they let you know if there's an NPC you could pick it up from if you were say, running the story. I don't think every heroic had an NPC to speak to originally, but I haven't been here from the start. It's all about options and choice.

 

They really need a separate queue for speedrunners, so if you want to just blow through everything, you can queue up with people with the same intentions. This way, players that want to experience an FP or Op can do so without their teammates ************ the whole time.

 

People aren't doing operations and flashpoints for enjoyment. They are playing them because the rewards for completing these activities are a necessary evil in getting the gear or items they want.

The newbs and the people that haven't completed every class story would like to have a word with you. Their needs and desires need to be taken into account as well. The game is always in need of new players. This is not to say to pander to them, like some threads I've seen have been demanding, but they deserve a similar experience to what veterans had.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Tofu_Shark

[MorseGod]

The newbs and the people that haven't completed every class story would like to have a word with you. Their needs and desires need to be taken into account as well. The game is always in need of new players. This is not to say to pander to them, like some threads I've seen have been demanding, but they deserve a similar experience to what veterans had.

 

My point is simply that people do what they find rewarding. The first time through, perhaps the actual content of some activities is rewarding, but after that it's simply mindless, repetitive grind to get achievements, decos, gear, et cetera.

 

If you want to make playing the game for its own sake the reward, then you need to make all activities equally rewarding in terms of Stuff™ (or just give the Stuff™ away for logging in), and then people will play what they like solely on the merits. That's really the only way the devs would ever find out what kind of content people actually enjoy as opposed to doing it because it's the fastest, easiest, least objectionable, or only route to the Stuff™ they want.