A perplexing thing

[OldVengeance]

Actually Kira's plot is more or less known. It was said that she's working with Scourge to find a way to remedy his condition and together they were working on a way of defeating Zakuul/Arcann etc. I'm relatively sure they're going to figure into the next xpac in a fairly big way, which I'm looking forward to.

 

As I said, I don't see them doing away with Lana, for just that reason. She's the only love interest that is bi and thus the only one available for F/F. The way I see it, if they're making Scourge available to male and female players, then they should do that to Kira too.

 

Really? Where was it established exactly what she was doing? I would assume that Scourge and Kira would be doing something related to finishing off Vitiate for good. That's really the only thing that makes sense to me, but I didn't know they explicitly came out and said what they were doing.

[Goreshaga]

I think it realistically would continue to make people angry after the Commander wins the Eternal Throne. I really hope that if the Commander chose to keep Arcann alive, there will be some pushback about it. I can't imagine walking into Dromund Kaas or Coruscant with him without protest or calls for punishment.

The same holds true to a DS Commander. All these people united to stop a tyrant and then another just to watch their Commander become one themselve ?

There is no logic for people still following a full DS Commander who kills all his companions and is always willing to sacrifice civilians.

Sad thing is that choices don't really matter wether you're LS or DS...

 

I've watched my sister play Detroit : become human and wow, that game was awsome, there choices really matters. If you're an incompetent or unpopular leader with Markus, the people in Jericho will kick him out, if you chose the pacific approch, public opinion will start to like them, but if you chose the violent path they will not and it will be war. The 3 main characters (and their friends / companions) can actually die at different points during the story (i remember my sister being frustrated when she messed up her QTE with Connor in the last chapter and watched him die) and there are something like a hundred different outcomes, she played the story 3 times now and got 3 different endings.

There is only 1 thing i've seen people complain about, it's the somehow forced romance between North and Markus, even when she always disagree with him because she wants them to go the violent path, while a lot of people would've loved to be able to pair Markus with Simon (and i honnestly agree that he'd be a better match for a pacifist Markus at least)

 

I'd really love if SWTOR could make it feel more like our choices really matter like that but it's a huge work, it took something like 8 years to make DBH. And well, there are so many different endings that it'll be difficult to make a sequel for the game, unless they choose one of them and make it the canon ending.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Goreshaga

[Lunafox]

Really? Where was it established exactly what she was doing? I would assume that Scourge and Kira would be doing something related to finishing off Vitiate for good. That's really the only thing that makes sense to me, but I didn't know they explicitly came out and said what they were doing.

 

Yep, Ranos said Scourge was off looking for something to solve his condition, but mostly they said on one of the live feeds I think it was. I know I heard it right from Charle's mouth on one of the streams. I wish I knew which one so I could prove it better. If I recall correctly, it wasn't one of their own so much as one that they visited.

[Kiesu]

Well, it did appear that way to me, but thank you for clarifying, I appreciate that. Sometimes it's hard to tell the emotions behind text, so I misread you, sorry about that. It seems we're pretty much in agreement on things.

No problem mate, I don't always do the best job expressing my intentions either when just writing down monotone thoughts

 

Still I don't see that Ashara and Andronikos' situation is alike, inefficient and uninformed as Andronikos was, he was still looking for the PC in the ways he knew how. Ashara, was quite fine with moving on and doing her own thing and not giving two craps about the PC. I think the actual plot the way it played out flew in the face of the letter she wrote early on, at least in that she seemed somewhat sad and remorseful, instead of the uppity twit we get on Voss.

Well we're in disagreement here then

I don't blame Ashara for wanting to move on, 5+ years is a long time. It's a long time to obsess over someone blindly too, (speculation: ) to the point you could think "searching for you" might have been just a convenient excuse to raid some more ships, pirate as he was. Plenty of characters have lied to us in the past, we don't really know if that was the truth at that point anymore. Falling back to your old habits is unfortunately easy when you got nobody looking after you. He literally says "shows how much I paid attention" when talking about not knowing you owning the fleet now. Then goes on to say he was looking for you but didnt mind the credits, and being with you was the "best job he ever had". He was not very sympathetic either if not romanced, just wanted the good-pay position back, haha.

 

Exactly! And you know, I'll never understand, why someone who is as powerful as Nox wasn't allowed to break their apprentice. The Wrath could...so why not the Inquisitor? Both are powerful. And yeah, no one deserves Harkun inflicted on them more than Ashara. My Nox would make her life hell and then pass her to Harkun and I'd instruct him to be as savage as he can be.

Maybe Ashara was simply stronger than Jaesa. Think about it.

Jaesa is constantly doubting herself, her master, your master and you the warrior before you recruit her. She made some hasty calls without her master and doubts her master in thinking her close ones are getting hurt because her master has beef with Baras. And her transformation is very extreme, her entire mentality changes, and we did that only by talking to her... the change doesn't seem forced to me at all.

It's rare to see a Jedi turn to the dark side in any bit of lore and change this radically. Dooku is a good example, his character stayed consistent from Jedi to Sith when he got new master and switched sides.

Then again Ashara always wants to have her way. She doesn't like being a follower, she doesn't constantly ask for guidance like Jaesa does, mentally she is a lot more independent. It makes sense to me we couldn't just turn her with a flick of our fingers.

 

Actually Kira's plot is more or less known. It was said that she's working with Scourge to find a way to remedy his condition and together they were working on a way of defeating Zakuul/Arcann etc. I'm relatively sure they're going to figure into the next xpac in a fairly big way, which I'm looking forward to.

 

As I said, I don't see them doing away with Lana, for just that reason. She's the only love interest that is bi and thus the only one available for F/F. The way I see it, if they're making Scourge available to male and female players, then they should do that to Kira too.

I didn't hear this about Kira either o_O

I admit I have issues letting Scourge just "find" a cure. Arguably the most powerful being in the current galaxy gave him immortality hundreds of years ago, feature that in on itself should be a damn near impossibility. It cannot be easy to erase, where do they think to find a power source larger than Vitiate that can undo a feat Emperor himself has been after for thousands of years. If he just finds an ancient datacron of undoing from under the Dark Temple, frankly I'm gonna be very disappointed at the writing. If him getting a cure is actually gonna be a thing it needs to be some bloody epic feat to be believable.

 

I don't know why Kira would turn Bi just because Scourge maybe possibly was? She had no issue having a relationship of purely flesh with male JK with no strings attached, it'd be weird if she had no touchy feelings of any kind towards ladies before, but now suddenly would because Scourge does? Idk, it sounds a little far fetched.

 

The same holds true to a DS Commander. All these people united to stop a tyrant and then another just to watch their Commander become one themselve ?

There is no logic for people still following a full DS Commander who kills all his companions and is always willing to sacrifice civilians.

Sad thing is that choices don't really matter wether you're LS or DS...

Yeah the entire Arcann dilemma, and DS dilemma is a mess.

 

My JK is an evil dude nowadays, he tried to kill Satele in the chapter she was in, later sided with imperials on Iokath so Malcom is ded, yet he got a very hearwarming letter from Satele afterwards welcoming him back to the Republic any time...

What the fck?

 

I've watched my sister play Detroit : become human and wow, that game was awsome, there choices really matters..

Too bad it's also the only David Cage game where decisions matter, all the previous ones he made were just illusion choices. He has been a massive joke in gaming community for forever now because his games are just quicktime event movies with no real choices, he should have just made the previous ones into movies.. I'm happy for him for finally breaking the pattern with this one, here's hoping he keeps up with the new direction

Edited September 21, 2018 by Kiesu

[IoNonSoEVero]

The same holds true to a DS Commander. All these people united to stop a tyrant and then another just to watch their Commander become one themselve ?

There is no logic for people still following a full DS Commander who kills all his companions and is always willing to sacrifice civilians.

Sad thing is that choices don't really matter wether you're LS or DS...

 

I agree with that too. I don't think the Alliance's goal is to replace one monster with another and that they'd turn on (or wouldn't even rescue in the first place) someone who was out of control evil.

 

I personally also wish they'd not scripted peacekeeper vs. empress/emperor as a LS or DS choice. Regardless of the choice you make you're the only one calling the shots. I wish the actions you'd carried out during the game did matter more instead. Like if you were a commander that had slaughtered Zakuulan citizens, it would have been nice if they scripted that Zakuul wouldn't accept you at all as a leader when you tool the Eternal Throne.

[casirabit]

Goreshaga;9649844]The same holds true to a DS Commander. All these people united to stop a tyrant and then another just to watch their Commander become one themselve ?

There is no logic for people still following a full DS Commander who kills all his companions and is always willing to sacrifice civilians.

Sad thing is that choices don't really matter wether you're LS or DS..

.

 

While my sorceress is dark side V, she isn't stupid. She refused to sacrifice civilians because in her way of thinking if she wanted the throne she sure didn't want to rule over a bunch of droids, so she didn't sacrifice civilians but she still made dark choices. While she did kill a companion or two (basically Kayilo for not following her orders) she doesn't make it a habit to kill people just because. If you betray her or not follow her orders then yea she is going to deal out the punishment but to just to kill civilians just because nope but she also tends to rule over them and she doesn't want to rule over droids p.

[casirabit]

I agree, Bioware didn't do right by the female players, whether they're straight or LBGT. Straight males get all the bells and whistles in spades. I suppose they thought straight men would be their main clientele. Just by spending time on the forum and getting to know people a bit, I see that's not true, but I think they still subscribe to that old idea that gamers are guys. All wrong, that. I hope they figure that out, sooner rather than later..

 

You have thought they would have known better than this. Even in SWG there were females playing, (duh) and you would have thought they would have realized that when they were making this game. Hopefully they will wise up now and fix some of these romance options. I have never understood their rationale that only men play. I have played video games since SWG and known quite a few ladies that played even back then. Not sure why they continue to bury their head in the sand on this point.

Edited September 21, 2018 by casirabit

[Nefla]

The same holds true to a DS Commander. All these people united to stop a tyrant and then another just to watch their Commander become one themselve ?

There is no logic for people still following a full DS Commander who kills all his companions and is always willing to sacrifice civilians.

Sad thing is that choices don't really matter wether you're LS or DS...

I agree, a ruthless but logical "do what it takes to achieve the overall goal and spare no enemy" type is one thing but the over the top, stupid-evil 100% DS characters while hilarious and fun make no sense for any of the classes. Even for sith doing things like casually killing other sith and imperials (especially while you're a lowly apprentice) making stupid decisions that damage imperial operations and assets just so you can be hur-dur evilest evil would cause you to get taken out really quick. A 100% DS jedi is just completely bogus. There's no way you wouldn't be drummed out of the order in 10 seconds flat and probably sent to prison as well. As you said, it makes no sense for the alliance to be happy with replacing one tyrant with a possibly worse and more insane one.

 

 

Well we're in disagreement here then

I don't blame Ashara for wanting to move on, 5+ years is a long time. It's a long time to obsess over someone blindly too, (speculation: ) to the point you could think "searching for you" might have been just a convenient excuse to raid some more ships, pirate as he was. Plenty of characters have lied to us in the past, we don't really know if that was the truth at that point anymore. Falling back to your old habits is unfortunately easy when you got nobody looking after you. He literally says "shows how much I paid attention" when talking about not knowing you owning the fleet now. Then goes on to say he was looking for you but didnt mind the credits, and being with you was the "best job he ever had". He was not very sympathetic either if not romanced, just wanted to good-pay position back, haha.

 

Maybe Ashara was simply stronger than Jaesa. Think about it.

Jaesa is constantly doubting herself, her master, your master and you the warrior before you recruit her. She made some hasty calls without her master and doubts her master in thinking her close ones are getting hurt because her master has beef with Baras. And her transformation is very extreme, her entire mentality changes, and we did that only by talking to her... the change doesn't seem forced to me at all.

It's rare to see a Jedi turn to the dark side in any bit of lore and change this radically. Dooku is a good example, his character stayed consistent from Jedi to Sith when he got new master and switched sides.

Then again Ashara always wants to have her way. She doesn't like being a follower, she doesn't constantly ask for guidance like Jaesa does, mentally she is a lot more independent. It makes sense to me we couldn't just turn her with a flick of our fingers.

Yeah, I actually LOVE characters having their own motivations and goals and a backbone rather than always being "bootlicker #2897" and it makes me sad that people seem to hate such characters so much that BioWare will probably stop making them and just have every character be your obedient slave no matter what. I really had no idea what people were complaining about with Ashara's return because in my eyes it was a normal and polite conversation showing that Ashara had matured as a person. Last night I finally looked up the DS version since I was pretty much convinced we'd gotten two completely different scenes based on how everyone was complaining about it (it's not, it's the same overall just your reactions to her are different) and I think people are mad because the ridiculous DS "no ur my slave 4ever!!1!! " option made the DS inquisitor look like a petulant child who had a toy taken away and Ashara just blocked the attack and walked away, making the character look like a chump lol.

 

I don't mean this to be mean, but I wonder if some of the "Ashara should fully submit to our will and deserves to die for not doing so" vs the complete acceptance of Andronikos jacking up your ships and stealing from you (and also clearly never having been submissive to you) is an unconscious bias of "it's ok if men are aggressive and dominant but women should be submissive"? I doubt Khem would have gotten any flak for not desperately searching for you for 5 years and not falling at your feet when you find him. Both Andronikos and Ashara were underlings of the same character and yet are being treated completely differently. "I totes tried to find you, honest but I just didn't look at the holonet for 5 seconds to see you were alive and leading this armada of ships that I've been robbing and trashing, really" is met with giddy praise but "after you died I took my own path and am my own person now, not a servant" is met with "how dare she disrespect me! Let me kill her for her insolence!" My theory is a combination of that and the idea that if you like somebody you are much more likely to overlook bad or stupid things they do but if you dislike someone, you nitpick their every action and hate everything they do and say. The two characters could have the exact same actions and dialogue and the reactions will be different based on if you like the character or not rather than logical comparison of actions.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Nefla

[IoNonSoEVero]

You have thought they would have known better than this. Even in SWG there were females playing, (duh) and you would have thought they would have realized that when they were making this game. Hopefully they will wise up now and fix some of these romance options. I have never understood their rationale that only men play. I have played video games since SWG and known quite a few ladies that played even back then. Not sure why they continue to bury their head in the sand on this point.

 

Yeah, there was a big article this year about how women make up more than 50% of the gaming population. Star Wars has always attracted a very diverse fan base too. So thinking that the game's audience is predominantly straight young men and that everything has to cater to that population is a huge mistake.

Edited September 21, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[Goreshaga]

Yeah, I actually LOVE characters having their own motivations and goals and a backbone rather than always being "bootlicker #2897" and it makes me sad that people seem to hate such characters so much that BioWare will probably stop making them and just have every character be your obedient slave no matter what. I really had no idea what people were complaining about with Ashara's return because in my eyes it was a normal and polite conversation showing that Ashara had matured as a person. Last night I finally looked up the DS version since I was pretty much convinced we'd gotten two completely different scenes based on how everyone was complaining about it (it's not, it's the same overall just your reactions to her are different) and I think people are mad because the ridiculous DS "no ur my slave 4ever!!1!! " option made the DS inquisitor look like a petulant child who had a toy taken away and Ashara just blocked the attack and walked away, making the character look like a chump lol.

 

I don't mean this to be mean, but I wonder if some of the "Ashara should fully submit to our will and deserves to die for not doing so" vs the complete acceptance of Andronikos jacking up your ships and stealing from you (and also clearly never having been submissive to you) is an unconscious bias of "it's ok if men are aggressive and dominant but women should be submissive"? I doubt Khem would have gotten any flak for not desperately searching for you for 5 years and not falling at your feet when you find him. Both Andronikos and Ashara were underlings of the same character and yet are being treated completely differently. "I totes tried to find you, honest but I just didn't look at the holonet for 5 seconds to see you were alive and leading this armada of ships that I've been robbing and trashing, really" is met with giddy praise but "after you died I took my own path and am my own person now, not a servant" is met with "how dare she disrespect me! Let me kill her for her insolence!" My theory is a combination of that and the idea that if you like somebody you are much more likely to overlook bad or stupid things they do but if you dislike someone, you nitpick their every action and hate everything they do and say. The two characters could have the exact same actions and dialogue and the reactions will be different based on if you like the character or not rather than logical comparison of actions.

I actually like my companions to stand up to what they believe in, but they also have to have a somewhat likeable personnality as well.

About Ashara, i don't like her, because her personnality just doesn't click with me. She's an arrogant whinning brat who thinks she deserves everything just because she thinks she's something special, and she seems to never know what she actually wants.

You talk to her, and she likes you, seems to think you're a great person, and 5 min later you're the worst living being in the galaxy and she hates you, and the problem is that she behaves like that no matter what you do or how you treat her, she is inconsistent.

I have to deal with someone like that on an everyday basis, and it is exausting, i just don't want to take it from an NPC too.

So yeah the reunion (and i only did it on a LS 5 Imperious who was always very kind and supportive to her, despite me disliking the character), with her saying something like she did not mind finding her mentor, even when knowing exactly where she was but that now she wanted to be her equal while she did nothing to help and that if my Imperious wanted her back it was that or nothing did not go very well.

I actually considered for a few minutes just sending her off before finally taking her back to stay in character with Imperious, but i seriously wanted to get rid of her at the time.

 

I don't mind Lana disagreeing with my JK for example and they disagree nearly all the time whenever Lana advises a cold pragmatic approach that can harm people and my JK opts for a "no casualty if avoidable" approach, because Lana is a strong independant woman who can actually do things on her own and i have absolutely no problem considering her my JK's equal. But Ashara, seriously, she did absolutely nothing after the SI found her but still behaves like she did when she was a Padawan, acting all arrogant and thinking that she is strong when she's not. She is a weak character and there's no way i'll ever consider her my SIs' equal.

[Kiesu]

I actually like my companions to stand up to what they believe in, but they also have to have a somewhat likeable personnality as well.

About Ashara, i don't like her, because her personnality just doesn't click with me. She's an arrogant whinning brat who thinks she deserves everything just because she thinks she's something special, and she seems to never know what she actually wants.

You talk to her, and she likes you, seems to think you're a great person, and 5 min later you're the worst living being in the galaxy and she hates you, and the problem is that she behaves like that no matter what you do or how you treat her, she is inconsistent.

I have to deal with someone like that on an everyday basis, and it is exausting, i just don't want to take it from an NPC too.

Sounds like a normal teenage girl to me

Seriously, when I was still in school half of the girls seemed to be like this. They liked and disliked different things every two weeks. Their hobbies swapped constantly, a jacket some girls wore nonstop got dumped in the trash by her months later because it just got out of fashion or something...They liked some boy band at first, but then some nerd from other class had a selfie with the singer and suddenly they all hated the boyband because they hated the nerd... Teenage girls are just that, inconsistent.

I agree it was bloody annoying trying to figure out how to talk to them when the right thing to say yesterday was the the wrong thing to say the next.

But that's just how many young people are, because they haven't figured themselves out yet.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Kiesu

[Goreshaga]

Sounds like a normal teenage girl to me

Seriously, when I was still in school half of the girls seemed to be like this. They liked and disliked different things every two weeks. Their hobbies swapped constantly, a jacket some girls wore nonstop got dumped in the trash by her months later because it just got out of fashion or something...They liked some boy band at first, but then some nerd from other class had a selfie with the singer and suddenly they all hated the boyband because they hated the nerd... Teenage girls are just that, inconsistent.

I agree it was bloody annoying trying to figure out how to talk to them when the right thing to say yesterday was the the wrong thing to say the next.

But that's just how many young people are, because they haven't figured themselves out yet.

I guess i was never a normal teenage girl then, because i was not like that. And i guess i already did not like that back then either as i always tried to avoid that kind of girls too.

At least i'm consistent

[IoNonSoEVero]

I think what they tried to get across with Ashara (and maybe did not always succeed) was that she was very, very naive and sheltered. She's from an order where independent thought isn't encouraged (the Jedi don't really seem to sit around debating the Jedi code). In those holos of Ashara that you find on Taris the Jedi essentially smack down her questions.

 

It'a also implied that the Jedi took her when she was very young. She doesn't know how to play basic games like pazak. So you have someone who has essentially lived in a bubble who is expected to think for themselves for the first time, in a totally different value system, and it's reasonable IMHO that she is very confused and has no idea what the heck she wants or believes.

 

I mean, compare that to Kira, who had both Sith and Jedi training and also a lot of real world experience in the school of hard knocks on Nar Shaddaa, or Jaesa. Jaesa seems to have been about 20 when the Jedi found her, and she had a job and was engaged to be married. Both of those young women had a lot more life experience and a lot more varied experiences than Ashara, and it makes sense that they come across as less confused and more mature.

[Kiesu]

Both Andronikos and Ashara were underlings of the same character and yet are being treated completely differently. "I totes tried to find you, honest but I just didn't look at the holonet for 5 seconds to see you were alive and leading this armada of ships that I've been robbing and trashing, really" is met with giddy praise but "after you died I took my own path and am my own person now, not a servant" is met with "how dare she disrespect me! Let me kill her for her insolence!" My theory is a combination of that and the idea that if you like somebody you are much more likely to overlook bad or stupid things they do but if you dislike someone, you nitpick their every action and hate everything they do and say. The two characters could have the exact same actions and dialogue and the reactions will be different based on if you like the character or not rather than logical comparison of actions.

Hehe, very black and white way of looking at it but true anyway

No doubt there is some mix of both going on. Everyone has favorites and that's fine. In school disputes in vast majority of chases if parents were given incident description and be asked if they thought their kid was responsible for whatever incident, they're gonna point at the other parent's kid first. It feels bad to admit you or your loved one is in the wrong, and it's not uncommon to make up excuses to keep your preferred image of them intact.

 

I think what they tried to get across with Ashara (and maybe did not always succeed) was that she was very, very naive and sheltered. She's from an order where independent thought isn't encouraged (the Jedi don't really seem to sit around debating the Jedi code). In those holos of Ashara that you find on Taris the Jedi essentially smack down her questions.

 

It'a also implied that the Jedi took her when she was very young. She doesn't know how to play basic games like pazak. So you have someone who has essentially lived in a bubble who is expected to think for themselves for the first time, in a totally different value system, and it's reasonable IMHO that she is very confused and has no idea what the heck she wants or believes.

 

I mean, compare that to Kira, who had both Sith and Jedi training and also a lot of real world experience in the school of hard knocks on Nar Shaddaa, or Jaesa. Jaesa seems to have been about 20 when the Jedi found her, and she had a job and was engaged to be married. Both of those young women had a lot more life experience and a lot more varied experiences than Ashara, and it makes sense that they come across as less confused and more mature.

Yes all of this is very relevant to take in concideration.

 

About Ashara's history, that is how Dooku was initially turned too, or how he began to turn already in training. By questioning the Jedi, the artifacts, why some knowledge was simply forbidden with no explanation... He rationalized knowing all sides makes one more prepared for them, gives you better judgement over things and so forth, but Jedi would have none of that, he couldn't believe it couldn't even be discussed. "Sheltered" is definitely the appropriate word here, anything deemed harmful by the order was not to be discussed with anyone bellow Master rank.

 

I guess i was never a normal teenage girl then, because i was not like that. And i guess i already did not like that back then either as i always tried to avoid that kind of girls too.

At least i'm consistent

But you knew these girls existed!

"Normal" is debatable, I think these girl groups just tended to be the most noisy and dramatic of the bunch and hence most memorable.

[casirabit]

I guess i was never a normal teenage girl then, because i was not like that. And i guess i already did not like that back then either as i always tried to avoid that kind of girls too.

At least i'm consistent

 

This, I wasn't like this either and avoid girls like that. But then again I never claimed to be normal, not even today p.

[IoNonSoEVero]

This, I wasn't like this either and avoid girls like that. But then again I never claimed to be normal, not even today p.

 

Same. That sort of behavior never interested me at all. There seemed to be a very small group like that at the schools I attended and they were only interesting to themselves.

[Kiesu]

Same. That sort of behavior never interested me at all. There seemed to be a very small group like that at the schools I attended and they were only interesting to themselves.

Well if we look at this psychologically, it's just herd mentality. It's important especially for young people to feel like they belong and having same interests/hobbies is just one way of experiencing belonging. And often there is a lot of group pressure that make kids act certain ways even against their better judgement.

 

But the main thing is, kids not knowing what they want is just kids not having figured themselves out yet

Edited September 21, 2018 by Kiesu

[Damask_Rose]

I agree, Bioware didn't do right by the female players, whether they're straight or LBGT. Straight males get all the bells and whistles in spades. I suppose they thought straight men would be their main clientele. Just by spending time on the forum and getting to know people a bit, I see that's not true, but I think they still subscribe to that old idea that gamers are guys. All wrong, that. I hope they figure that out, sooner rather than later

 

This is why Ixum started his skimpy gear thread, as a protest to the gender bias in clothing. It is thanks to his efforts that Bioware stopped making gear that would magically lose parts when equipped by women. Sadly, I think Bioware is slipping back into their bad habit of catering more heavily to their straight male demographic despite women and gay men spending heavily in this game (2 new female dancers and no male? Really?)

 

I don't know why Kira would turn Bi just because Scourge maybe possibly was? She had no issue having a relationship of purely flesh with male JK with no strings attached, it'd be weird if she had no touchy feelings of any kind towards ladies before, but now suddenly would because Scourge does? Idk, it sounds a little far fetched.

 

We only get an itty, bitty, tiny slice of our companions personal lives. Kira wouldn't have to "turn" bi, she could always have been but not have seen a reason to talk about it in the 10 conversations or so we've had with her. For instance, I have a friend that I've known for about 10 years. She is a divorced mother of two who has only dated men since I've known her. She identifies as bi. I only know that because she mentioned that in passing. If I'd only had 10 conversations with her I wouldn't have known that. Some people talk very openly about their pasts and preferences, others do not. Since, to the best of my recollection, Kira has never declared herself to be straight, that leaves open the possibility that she is bi.

 

I don't mean this to be mean, but I wonder if some of the "Ashara should fully submit to our will and deserves to die for not doing so" vs the complete acceptance of Andronikos jacking up your ships and stealing from you (and also clearly never having been submissive to you) is an unconscious bias of "it's ok if men are aggressive and dominant but women should be submissive"? I doubt Khem would have gotten any flak for not desperately searching for you for 5 years and not falling at your feet when you find him. Both Andronikos and Ashara were underlings of the same character and yet are being treated completely differently. "I totes tried to find you, honest but I just didn't look at the holonet for 5 seconds to see you were alive and leading this armada of ships that I've been robbing and trashing, really" is met with giddy praise but "after you died I took my own path and am my own person now, not a servant" is met with "how dare she disrespect me! Let me kill her for her insolence!" My theory is a combination of that and the idea that if you like somebody you are much more likely to overlook bad or stupid things they do but if you dislike someone, you nitpick their every action and hate everything they do and say. The two characters could have the exact same actions and dialogue and the reactions will be different based on if you like the character or not rather than logical comparison of actions.

 

I think you are consistently ignoring other factors. You are looking at the Inquistior/Ashara relationship as if it's nothing more than a friendship, or mentoring, most of the people who are upset with how the return was handled view that relationship as a Sith Master/Sith Apprentice relationship. Those are very different things and there are very clear expectations of what the master/apprenticeship entails. Your view, while much kinder, is not consistent with the lore. I'm pretty sure that if Xalek or Khem announced that they were were the Inquisitor's equal and sauntered away while the Inquisitor looked on, slack-jawed, doing nothing people would be just as unhappy.

 

Andronikos and Ashara did not serve in the same capacity. They didn't have the same type of relationship. So why should they be treated the same? Andronikos was never in a subservient position. He signed on to captain your ship, more as a partner than as an employee. He was free to leave at any time. Ashara, on the other hand, was an apprentice. That is a subservient position. Apprentices are bound to their master and are not free to leave at their whim. They are different balls of wax.

 

As far as holding Andronikos responsible for not knowing the fleet was yours? Personally I dismiss that as being a plot hole created by the delay in releasing the alerts. Just like I don't hold Lana responsible for not knowing Quinn was my husband even though he never left my side on Rishi, Yavin & Ziost, and presumably she was searching for him for at least a year.

 

Sounds like a normal teenage girl to me ... Teenage girls are just that, inconsistent. ...

But that's just how many young people are, because they haven't figured themselves out yet ...

But the main thing is, kids not knowing what they want is just kids not having figured themselves out yet

 

But Ashara isn't a teenage girl. She was 20 when you meet her on Taris. She'd be in her 30s by the reunion. She is a fully grown up woman. She just acts like a particularly flaky teenager.

[IoNonSoEVero]

This is why Ixum started his skimpy gear thread, as a protest to the gender bias in clothing. It is thanks to his efforts that Bioware stopped making gear that would magically lose parts when equipped by women. Sadly, I think Bioware is slipping back into their bad habit of catering more heavily to their straight male demographic despite women and gay men spending heavily in this game (2 new female dancers and no male? Really?)

 

That pack with only female dancers, and the skimpy swimwear that was only for female characters that was originally supposed to come out around the Rishi stronghold both stood out to me as wondering if they're going back to their old ways.

 

The skimpier armor for women frustrates me so much. There are plenty of armor sets I would love because the male version is nice but the female version is drastically different. I wasn't aware that someone had started a thread to call attention to it, but I appreciate that they did.

 

We only get an itty, bitty, tiny slice of our companions personal lives. Kira wouldn't have to "turn" bi, she could always have been but not have seen a reason to talk about it in the 10 conversations or so we've had with her. For instance, I have a friend that I've known for about 10 years. She is a divorced mother of two who has only dated men since I've known her. She identifies as bi. I only know that because she mentioned that in passing. If I'd only had 10 conversations with her I wouldn't have known that. Some people talk very openly about their pasts and preferences, others do not. Since, to the best of my recollection, Kira has never declared herself to be straight, that leaves open the possibility that she is bi.

 

Kira was also apparently one of the companions that was originally scripted to be SGR too, and some of her lines could be interpreted that way, so there's precedent. With a few of the companions, it seems as all they did was take the [flirt] off the dialogue but didn't change the dialogue itself.

 

And you're right. Plenty of people don't talk openly about their orientation very much. There are people in my life who would be very surprised I'm not straight, and that's not because I hide it but because it's just never come up in conversation and there's been no reason for us to talk about it. Many people also don't discover or admit their true sexual orientation until they're in their 20s, 30s or even way older. There are people in their 60s coming out. So Kira coming back and expressing feelings for a female JK would be completely plausible.

Edited September 21, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[Nefla]

I actually like my companions to stand up to what they believe in, but they also have to have a somewhat likeable personnality as well.

About Ashara, i don't like her, because her personnality just doesn't click with me. She's an arrogant whinning brat who thinks she deserves everything just because she thinks she's something special, and she seems to never know what she actually wants.

You talk to her, and she likes you, seems to think you're a great person, and 5 min later you're the worst living being in the galaxy and she hates you, and the problem is that she behaves like that no matter what you do or how you treat her, she is inconsistent.

I have to deal with someone like that on an everyday basis, and it is exausting, i just don't want to take it from an NPC too.

So yeah the reunion (and i only did it on a LS 5 Imperious who was always very kind and supportive to her, despite me disliking the character), with her saying something like she did not mind finding her mentor, even when knowing exactly where she was but that now she wanted to be her equal while she did nothing to help and that if my Imperious wanted her back it was that or nothing did not go very well.

I actually considered for a few minutes just sending her off before finally taking her back to stay in character with Imperious, but i seriously wanted to get rid of her at the time.

 

I don't mind Lana disagreeing with my JK for example and they disagree nearly all the time whenever Lana advises a cold pragmatic approach that can harm people and my JK opts for a "no casualty if avoidable" approach, because Lana is a strong independant woman who can actually do things on her own and i have absolutely no problem considering her my JK's equal. But Ashara, seriously, she did absolutely nothing after the SI found her but still behaves like she did when she was a Padawan, acting all arrogant and thinking that she is strong when she's not. She is a weak character and there's no way i'll ever consider her my SIs' equal.

I totally get hating a character and I feel BioWare has a problem sometimes taking choices and interactions into account and just disregards thing they've previously let you choose to do or say. For example you can choose to be a peaceful, professional, merciful, and professional LS sith inquisitor most of the time but a few times the game forces you to act contradictory to that. On Tattooine rather than letting you get information on Andronikos through persuasion, bribery, or the jedi mind trick (which it lets you use in other situations) you have to either electrocute the bartender or threaten to kill the waitress and then steal this expensive bottle of wine from her with no compensation. On Rishi, in your little personal class quest you automatically threaten to electrocute the old man who is your underling because he was slightly skeptical of you. You don't even get a choice in how to respond, your character automatically does this. With your Sith warrior you can again be 100% LS, only kill in self defense (when the game forces it) and when you tell Vette "I only kill/whatever as a last resort" she goes "you must have a short list of resorts" as if you've been slaughtering your way across the galaxy until then.

 

It's interesting that we have completely opposite takes on Lana. To me Lana like a lost puppy following us around and fawning all over us no matter what we do or say. She may disagree with a choice in the moment but she gets over it in a snap and it never comes up again. With my most recent character I went out of my way to test this, I was extremely mean to her and every opportunity, blatantly crapped on the Empire at every turn (even when doing those things made my character an idiot like firing on Imperial ships instead of Revanite ones or telling Lana to shut up and not tell him what to do but then doing that exact thing anyway because it was the next part of the quest). It got so ridiculous that even my friend who also hates Lana felt sorry for her. So I did all that, when we parted on Yavin I told her I'd kill her if we ever met again, and then in KotFE she still gives me the "it's so good to see you <3" line and every line was the same. The game acts as if you're BFFs no matter what and it's infuriating.

 

For Ashara, I guess I'm just not getting what you guys were wanting out of her return. I agree that she's boring and annoying but "I couldn't face you, I was afraid that if I came back to you I'd fall into my old ways and be a follower instead of a leader" does not seem disrespectful or mean or unreasonable in the slightest to me. She wants to be your comrade not your slave.

[Kiesu]

We only get an itty, bitty, tiny slice of our companions personal lives. Kira wouldn't have to "turn" bi, she could always have been but not have seen a reason to talk about it in the 10 conversations or so we've had with her. For instance, I have a friend that I've known for about 10 years. She is a divorced mother of two who has only dated men since I've known her. She identifies as bi. I only know that because she mentioned that in passing. If I'd only had 10 conversations with her I wouldn't have known that. Some people talk very openly about their pasts and preferences, others do not. Since, to the best of my recollection, Kira has never declared herself to be straight, that leaves open the possibility that she is bi.

That's fair. Though, in my experience sexually liberal people (Kira was definitely one) don't commonly hold down such emotions. So I would still find it weird she was willing to have a no-strings relationship with a man but not with a woman. Kira doesn't strike me as someone who would hold down her touchy-feels like that. Maybe we just have the possible removal of lgbt in early development to blame on that (we don't actually know which companions were going to be bi or gay, the flirt-lines having similar responses is just speculation), but as she is currently written in game it just doesn't make sense why she wouldn't have accepted female knight like she did male, but would later change her mind. People who "turned out gay/bi" later like Kaidan from Mass Effect had the sort of personality and background that was easily believable to be closet gay/bi. Kira doesn't really have that, she is very liberal and forward. (I'm bi/pan myself)

 

Andronikos and Ashara did not serve in the same capacity. They didn't have the same type of relationship. So why should they be treated the same? Andronikos was never in a subservient position. He signed on to captain your ship, more as a partner than as an employee. He was free to leave at any time. Ashara, on the other hand, was an apprentice. That is a subservient position. Apprentices are bound to their master and are not free to leave at their whim. They are different balls of wax.

Sure. We're not arguing they should/shouldn't have been able to have consequences a proper Sith player might have wanted to play out in the reunions. We (or at least I) was arguing about the very unsympathetic treatment of her and her personality, and refusal to see her pov. Lots of text on this a few pages ago.

 

As far as holding Andronikos responsible for not knowing the fleet was yours? Personally I dismiss that as being a plot hole created by the delay in releasing the alerts. Just like I don't hold Lana responsible for not knowing Quinn was my husband even though he never left my side on Rishi, Yavin & Ziost, and presumably she was searching for him for at least a year.

Plot-hole or not it's canon now. Just dropping things that didn't turn out the way you wanted out of lore is not how lore works there is some terrible canon lore in legends. There is some seriously terrible nonsensical lore in new Disney Canon. They don't just go away because we wish them to.

 

But Ashara isn't a teenage girl. She was 20 when you meet her on Taris. She'd be in her 30s by the reunion. She is a fully grown up woman. She just acts like a particularly flaky teenager.

People mature at different rates. There is some really childish under 30y olds and some really mature 15 year olds. Age should not be an argument here.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Kiesu

[Nefla]

I think you are consistently ignoring other factors. You are looking at the Inquistior/Ashara relationship as if it's nothing more than a friendship, or mentoring, most of the people who are upset with how the return was handled view that relationship as a Sith Master/Sith Apprentice relationship. Those are very different things and there are very clear expectations of what the master/apprenticeship entails. Your view, while much kinder, is not consistent with the lore. I'm pretty sure that if Xalek or Khem announced that they were were the Inquisitor's equal and sauntered away while the Inquisitor looked on, slack-jawed, doing nothing people would be just as unhappy.

 

Andronikos and Ashara did not serve in the same capacity. They didn't have the same type of relationship. So why should they be treated the same? Andronikos was never in a subservient position. He signed on to captain your ship, more as a partner than as an employee. He was free to leave at any time. Ashara, on the other hand, was an apprentice. That is a subservient position. Apprentices are bound to their master and are not free to leave at their whim. They are different balls of wax.

 

As far as holding Andronikos responsible for not knowing the fleet was yours? Personally I dismiss that as being a plot hole created by the delay in releasing the alerts. Just like I don't hold Lana responsible for not knowing Quinn was my husband even though he never left my side on Rishi, Yavin & Ziost, and presumably she was searching for him for at least a year.

I think you guys are consistently ignoring the fact that Ashara isn't actually ever a sith or technically your apprentice. The game explicitly says this. Both Ashara herself talks about how she's a jedi and that she's only "working with" a sith and Zash says "fallen or not, this one can hardly be called sith" and makes you get a real apprentice: Xalek. You can view it as "Ashara is a sith apprentice and bound to serve me" but neither of those statements is true. She stays a jedi and she never takes any kind of oath to serve you. She comes with you because she has nowhere else to go, not because she wants to join the sith order or be your servant. At most she says she'll spread your teachings to your followers/children at the end (like every character does). I'm not the one going against the story here.

 

How can you say Andronikos wasn't subservient to you but Ashara was? Everyone is beneath a sith, everyone on your ship is your employee/subordinate in some way and if you believe Ashara is a sith apprentice (which she's not) then she herself would have a much higher status that a non-force user, who isn't a high ranking noble or imperial moff or something. Quinn and Pierce are not social equals to a sith warrior, they are her employees. Andronikos is your employee. Just because he's an employee you like (and maybe have a romantic affair with) doesn't mean he's your social equal. Do you think the sith would believe that Andronikos was the SI's equal and free to leave her any time even if she wanted him to stay? Lol no. He'd be seen as her pet by the Empire.

 

I'm really not understanding the intense hangup with "how dare she say she's my equal!" What do you guys think she means by that? Do you think she wants to rule half of the alliance/eternal empire? She doesn't. She wants to be a comrade and not an underling/pupil and she's not a child anymore. Why does she have to be some kind of slave when Andronikos, Lana, Theron, Arcann, Senya, Hylo, Vette, etc...(well the ones you kept alive anyway) are treated as comrades? It makes no sense other than "I hate the character and want her to suffer so shut up." Hate her all you want, ask for kill options all you want, but don't pretend it's not a huge double standard/inconsistency to treat these two subordinates so differently.

 

If you just hand wave Andronikos attacking your ships and not bothering to take 5 seconds to check where you were and that these were your ships, why attack Ashara for not looking for you/being able to face you until now? Both were written as a result of the characters not being added into the main story and so much time having passed. It's not objective, it's not because Andronikos and Ashara are somehow socially different, it's because you guys like one and not the other which is fine but don't pretend it's objective or logical.

[casirabit]

 

I'm really not understanding the intense hangup with "how dare she say she's my equal!" What do you guys think she means by that? Do you think she wants to rule half of the alliance/eternal empire? She doesn't. She wants to be a comrade and not an underling/pupil and she's not a child anymore. Why does she have to be some kind of slave when Andronikos, Lana, Theron, Arcann, Senya, Hylo, Vette, etc...(well the ones you kept alive anyway) are treated as comrades? It makes no sense other than "I hate the character and want her to suffer so shut up." Hate her all you want, ask for kill options all you want, but don't pretend it's not a huge double standard/inconsistency to treat these two subordinates so differently. l.

 

Then she needs to prove it and not by walking away. I have done enough sith roleplay to know when you say you are equal to a sith more powerful than a sith you know to be powerful you are going to have to prove it. You can't just say treat me as an equal to a sith. You are going to have to prove it and that has been an established sith lore from as far back as I can remember. Whether or not she an apprentice you don't tell someone that you know is powerful I am just as powerful as you are and I want to be treated as an equal without proving it and the only way to prove that to another sith is a duel, not walking away.

 

I don't hate the character but the way it was handled was wrong. I know enough about sith lore to know this is not done. You don't tell a sith to treat me as an equal and then turn and walk out. Sorry that is just not the way it is done.

 

While Andronikos may not have been very smart not to check to see the information, he at least was smart enough not to come up to my sith and tell her he was as powerful and an equal and treat me as such and then turn and walk away. That is where the problem lies with Ashara.

Edited September 21, 2018 by casirabit

[Nefla]

Then she needs to prove it and not by walking away. I have done enough sith roleplay to know when you say you are equal to a sith more powerful than a sith you know to be powerful you are going to have to prove it. You can't just say treat me as an equal to a sith. You are going to have to prove it and that has been an established sith lore from as far back as I can remember. Whether or not she an apprentice you don't tell someone that you know is powerful I am just as powerful as you are and I want to be treated as an equal without proving it and the only way to prove that to another sith is a duel, not walking away.

 

I don't hate the character but the way it was handled was wrong. I know enough about sith lore to know this is not done. You don't tell a sith to treat me as an equal and then turn and walk out. Sorry that is just not the way it is done.

 

While Andronikos may not have been very smart not to check to see the information, he at least was smart enough not to come up to my sith and tell her he was as powerful and an equal and treat me as such and then turn and walk away. That is where the problem lies with Ashara.

She certainly seemed more than equal when she blocked the inquisitor's lightning and left her looking like a chump Ashara doesn't even say she's as powerful as you or demand that you respect her or whatever. The dialogue was literally:

 

Ashara: It's you, I always knew you'd find me. We...have a lot to talk about don't we?

Inquisitor: When I didn't hear from you, I assumed the worst. I'm glad to see I was wrong.

Ashara: I'm sorry I didn't contact you, when you disappeared I didn't know where to turn. The Jedi condemned me a long time ago, and I couldn't trust the Sith. I was lost. It made me realize how much I relied on others, I needed to forge my own path away from you, from the council, and everyone else who tried to influence me. So I traveled across the galaxy, helping those who needed it most. I never stayed in one place too long. It taught me a lot about myself.

Inquisitor: You must have heard about my return, why did I have to track you across the galaxy to speak with you?

Ashara: I-couldn't face you, not until I knew I was strong enough (wait, is this the line you guys are complaining about? She doesn't mean she couldn't face you in BATTLE until she was physically strong enough, she's talking about her mentality). I was afraid if I returned to you I'd fall into my old ways, I'd become a follower again instead of a leader but when I see you I don't feel like a frightened child in need of guidance anymore. With this new strength I can finally come back, not as your apprentice but as your equal.

 

What part of that was her treating you like crap or issuing a challenge or unreasonable or anything? Plenty of characters both companions and NPCs come up to our characters as equals and we don't duel them all to the death. Why is she the only character that should be forced to be our meek and submissive little slave lest we kill her? She was never that way to begin with.

 

The option to try to shock her let alone try to kill her is one of those stupidly-evil edgelord choices. I get that those kinds of characters can be fun to play but it's not a normal or reasonable or story consistent reaction to her dialogue and again it's a huge double standard when compared to not killing Andronikos.

[casirabit]

She certainly seemed more than equal when she blocked the inquisitor's lightning and left her looking like a chump Ashara doesn't even say she's as powerful as you or demand that you respect her or whatever. The dialogue was literally:

 

Ashara: It's you, I always knew you'd find me. We...have a lot to talk about don't we?

Inquisitor: When I didn't hear from you, I assumed the worst. I'm glad to see I was wrong.

Ashara: I'm sorry I didn't contact you, when you disappeared I didn't know where to turn. The Jedi condemned me a long time ago, and I couldn't trust the Sith. I was lost. It made me realize how much I relied on others, I needed to forge my own path away from you, from the council, and everyone else who tried to influence me. So I traveled across the galaxy, helping those who needed it most. I never stayed in one place too long. It taught me a lot about myself.

Inquisitor: You must have heard about my return, why did I have to track you across the galaxy to speak with you?

Ashara: I-couldn't face you, not until I knew I was strong enough (wait, is this the line you guys are complaining about? She doesn't mean she couldn't face you in BATTLE until she was physically strong enough, she's talking about her mentality). I was afraid if I returned to you I'd fall into my old ways, I'd become a follower again instead of a leader but when I see you I don't feel like a frightened child in need of guidance anymore. With this new strength I can finally come back, not as your apprentice but as your equal.

 

What part of that was her treating you like crap or issuing a challenge or unreasonable or anything? Plenty of characters both companions and NPCs come up to our characters as equals and we don't duel them all to the death. Why is she the only character that should be forced to be our meek and submissive little slave lest we kill her? She was never that way to begin with.

 

The option to try to shock her let alone try to kill her is one of those stupidly-evil edgelord choices. I get that those kinds of characters can be fun to play but it's not a normal or reasonable or story consistent reaction to her dialogue and again it's a huge double standard when compared to not killing Andronikos.

 

We going to have to agree to disagree because no matter what others say you have decided that we are wrong in wanting a better ending to that scene. I think it was wrong and nothing will change my opinion. As stated before I done enough sith roleplay (here and on SWG) that if I had said that to any sith master (a good friend of mine) he would have told me to prove it and reflecting lighting back is not proving it, that is something even an sith apprentice should be capable of and if an sith apprentice can't do that then they have no business being a sith. As I stated before I do not hate her, nor do I wish to kill her but the way the scene was done was wrong for a dark side sorceress, whether or not you agree.

Edited September 22, 2018 by casirabit