A perplexing thing

[casirabit]

I agree with you 100% And now that I'm out of the hospital, I can say so!

 

Glad you are feeling better Luna.

[Lunafox]

Glad you are feeling better Luna.

 

*hugs* Thanks Casi <3

[Kiesu]

I also agree with you about Ashara. She is twenty when she is first met http://swtor.wikia.com/wiki/Ashara_Zavros which makes her an immature adult. She was born in 3662 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ashara_Zavros which makes her around 31-ish in the current time frame. She is still a fool and time hasn't changed that. She did not come looking for the PC, that's a fact. She did nothing to fight the Valkorions. That's fact. So where does she get off demanding to be the PC's equal? When she fights off Valkorion's entire family and mind battles him after he possesses her, then she can try to claim she's an equal. Until then? She's nothing but a willful brat that deserves the death option available. There should've been three--accept happily, turn her away and kill her outright or at very least, leave her for dead. I don't care how old she is, an idiot is an idiot.

 

As for Andronikos, I agree as well. He was never the SI's slave. He was a partner and had the right to leave whenever he chose. Ashara was an apprentice http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ashara_Zavros Darth Nox is listed as a master. Apprentices don't get to leave whenever they want. Look at Anakin. He couldn't even go visit his mother, not even once in the years he was with Obi-wan. And when he went off with Padme, he got in trouble for it from Obi-wan for not obeying. An apprentice, whether Jedi or Sith is the property of their master and has to do whatever they want. They have no freedom, except when they do missions, which are their master's bidding.

"I've been off 7something years and haven't been mentoring you at all nor am I interested in mentoring you but you are still my apprentice goddamit!!1" -DS SI last option ragefit

Where do you get the idea she is a Sith without you, anyway? She isn't part of either order. She is an unaligned force user. She declares this in her reunion scene. She has no obligations to you, she didn't know you were alive, your crew was scatter and she had no allies in republic nor empire. What was she going to do alone and untrained against Eternal Throne, exactly? She probably "finished" her training with the Voss since that's where she was anyway, though the talks of traveling a lot and helping the needy.

 

You know, the best way to help isn't always grabbing a gun and shooting it at the bad guy. You just never see the bits that aren't action-full in movies so people often think that's the only and best way to deal with any conflict, since it's all action there. She was already helping behind the scenes, she just didn't brag or play action hero.

Like Kiwiiks tells Knight on Corellia; she wasn't fit to fight, perhaps her skills were more useful elsewhere. Maybe you sent Kiwiiks out there to her possible death or to be liability for some other party to look after just because you were in charge of her at the time, did it make you right (and not stupid) just because you had the power to decide over her?

 

Is it silly that you can't have Ashara killed just because? Maybe. But we do get an attack option, that should be enough. If she truly is strong enough to resist a Darth, I'd say that looks pretty darn close to equal. She doesn't have to fight over dominance because why would she? She wasn't a sith. She was going to come back to you (and the sith) on the condition that you were equals. You attacking her wasn't her idea of being equal so she bailed, rank doesn't do her any good if she wasn't planning to walk among the Sith without you. Nor did she have to follow you just because you were her master, since you couldn't even succesfully zap her

She should have yelled the SI was an idiot after that attempt, it would have been perfectly justified haha

Edited September 24, 2018 by Kiesu

[casirabit]

Kiesu;9650689]"She has no obligations to you, she didn't know you were alive, your crew was scatter and she had no allies in republic nor empire

.

 

I just did this again last night and she stated at the beginning of the reunion she knew you would find her so it didn't sound like she didn't know you were alive. It actually sounded like she knew you were alive.

 

Is it silly that you can't have Ashara killed just because?

 

How is that any different than half the kill options that were allowed already. Koth was allowed to be killed just because he didn't always agree with you. While I don't like kill options, especially in light of most of my companions being killed because people want to kill them just because...... The way it seems to be it is okay to kill "certain" companions for a just because but not others? Sorry, that doesn't seem right to me.

Edited September 25, 2018 by casirabit

[Lunafox]

"I've been off 7something years and haven't been mentoring you at all nor am I interested in mentoring you but you are still my apprentice goddamit!!1" -DS SI last option ragefit

Where do you get the idea she is a Sith without you, anyway? She isn't part of either order. She is an unaligned force user. She declares this in her reunion scene. She has no obligations to you, she didn't know you were alive, your crew was scatter and she had no allies in republic nor empire. What was she going to do alone and untrained against Eternal Throne, exactly? She probably "finished" her training with the Voss since that's where she was anyway, though the talks of traveling a lot and helping the needy.

 

You know, the best way to help isn't always grabbing a gun and shooting it at the bad guy. You just never see the bits that aren't action-full in movies so people often think that's the only and best way to deal with any conflict, since it's all action there. She was already helping behind the scenes, she just didn't brag or play action hero.

Like Kiwiiks tells Knight on Corellia; she wasn't fit to fight, perhaps her skills were more useful elsewhere. Maybe you sent Kiwiiks out there to her possible death or to be liability for some other party to look after just because you were in charge of her at the time, did it make you right (and not stupid) just because you had the power to decide over her?

 

Is it silly that you can't have Ashara killed just because? Maybe. But we do get an attack option, that should be enough. If she truly is strong enough to resist a Darth, I'd say that looks pretty darn close to equal. She doesn't have to fight over dominance because why would she? She wasn't a sith. She was going to come back to you (and the sith) on the condition that you were equals. You attacking her wasn't her idea of being equal so she bailed, rank doesn't do her any good if she wasn't planning to walk among the Sith without you. Nor did she have to follow you just because you were her master, since you couldn't even succesfully zap her

She should have yelled the SI was an idiot after that attempt, it would have been perfectly justified haha

 

But that's the way a dark V thinks. They expect loyalty. My Sith gets the idea that once she joined her, that she's her apprentice and my Sith expects loyalty. Ashara knew darn well the Sith was alive, she even says so. She just didn't feel like joining the good fight, she felt more like buzzing off and not doing s*it to help against the Valkorions. I'm sorry, what good is spoon feeding gruel to an orphan (if that's what she was actually doing) if there is a lunatic uber powerful Force user who would eat the galaxy, or one of his lunatic kids kell bent on nuking worlds until there is nothing left? It's useless.

 

If she was alone and untrained in a galaxy going to hell, she should've joined her master in the Alliance...safety in numbers and all that. Besides, there is nothing saying what she was doing. If she wasn't fighting and unseen, she could've been shacked up on a beach somewhere. She says she's helping, but there is not proof of that. Why should her master, whom she deserted take her at her word?

 

Kiwiiks has nothing to do with this discussion. If she was so useless she shouldn't' have been chasing Shock Drums and action. She should've been chilling with Satele in the temple or hanging out with that Cathar dude that was healing all the little animals and the flesh-eater baby.

 

It is not just silly, it is absolutely ridiculous that there isn't a kill option on Ashara. If she's strong enough to resist the sith that took out the Emperor and his family of horrors, then that just adds to her crime. If she's that strong, the war could've ended that much sooner. Those 5 planets that got trashed might've still been okay. But she didn't come to help. She did nothing of use. Like I said, what good is spoonfeeding gruel, when that orphan's world might be trashed by Arcann tomorrow? Ashara isn't resisting a mere Darth, she's shown to resist the Empress that took out all the Valkorians.

 

This entire scenario is a mistake in the writing. I seriously doubt that the person who took out the Emperor and his whole family wouldn't or couldn't take out a mealy-mouthed brat that defies them. This whole scenario was written by someone flogging political correctness and social justice and that mentality has made many of these returns into pablum. Weak, bland and ineffective. And incorrect to the dark side characters. There should've been a choice to kill Ashara or leave her for dead, it was a valid choice, but instead, the writer decided to go with politically correct BS and social justice politics that have no business in Star Wars and make the galaxy's hero look like a weak moron, which they most certainly are not, especially after defeating the big bad.

 

This game has a double standard. They spare the female character because they think their main demographic loves them. They ignore their female demographic and give in to the haters to kill Quinn, years after it makes any sense to. It's BS, it's sexist and it's not fair.

 

A dark V Sith should be allowed to kill Ashara off. They certainly had no problems putting death choices on other characters. It irritates the hell out of me because it's the ONE character I always wanted to kill, but I don't get the chance while watching all MY beloved characters kiss the floor.

 

Bioware in this decision effectively neutered their dark side Sith and that's BS. If we can't play our characters to their nature, then why bother including Sith at all in the game. It's a double standard and it's unfair.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Lunafox

[IoNonSoEVero]

Bioware has certainly not treated its female (straight and queer) players well, but saying that the writer of the returns did what they did due to SJW or political correctness is a bit wrong, IMHO.

 

1. The returns are written by the same writer who championed and pushed through a romance with a man who commits genocide and physically hurts the PC more than once. She noticeably found time for the violent white man in Nathema while leaving out the bisexual black man who had a more plausible place in the story, given the plot.

 

2. None of the two-minute wonders - and I think we've had seven this year, if my count isn't off - have had kill options, even those who arguably deserve them. Not the men, not the women.

 

3. It's painfully obvious that the writer really didn't know the companions very well or spend very much time researching them or the class story characterizations of the PC. Whoever was in charge of quality control didn't pay attention either. The timeline is noticeably off. There are huge plot holes all over the place. The dialogue for a number of the PCs and companions hasn't sounded like them at all.

 

That's true in numerous stories, not just Ashara's.

 

I'd think all of those are responsible for any flaws one sees with the reunions this year, more than any sort of 'political agenda.'

Edited September 25, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[Kiesu]

.I just did this again last night and she stated at the beginning of the reunion she knew you would find her so it didn't sound like she didn't know you were alive. It actually sounded like she knew you were alive.

 

 

How is that any different than half the kill options that were allowed already. Koth was allowed to be killed just because he didn't always agree with you. While I don't like kill options, especially in light of most of my companions being killed because people want to kill them just because...... The way it seems to be it is okay to kill "certain" companions for a just because but not others? Sorry, that doesn't seem right to me.

Because Koth wasn't a force user and severely outmatched in the situation? Something Ashara sure didn't seem to be makes perfect sense to me that killing everyone off isn't equally as easy, or possibly not even achievable.

 

She knew you were alive years after you went missing. Remember that she did think she sent a letter to a dead person if you romanced her, she legit thought you were dead back then. She probably learned you were alive when your picture went all over the holonet (unlike our pirate friend), which was already 6-7something years afterwards.

 

But that's the way a dark V thinks. They expect loyalty. My Sith gets the idea that once she joined her, that she's her apprentice and my Sith expects loyalty. Ashara knew darn well the Sith was alive, she even says so. She just didn't feel like joining the good fight, she felt more like buzzing off and not doing s*it to help against the Valkorions. I'm sorry, what good is spoon feeding gruel to an orphan (if that's what she was actually doing) if there is a lunatic uber powerful Force user who would eat the galaxy, or one of his lunatic kids kell bent on nuking worlds until there is nothing left? It's useless.

 

If she was alone and untrained in a galaxy going to hell, she should've joined her master in the Alliance...safety in numbers and all that. Besides, there is nothing saying what she was doing. If she wasn't fighting and unseen, she could've been shacked up on a beach somewhere. She says she's helping, but there is not proof of that. Why should her master, whom she deserted take her at her word?

 

Kiwiiks has nothing to do with this discussion. If she was so useless she shouldn't' have been chasing Shock Drums and action. She should've been chilling with Satele in the temple or hanging out with that Cathar dude that was healing all the little animals and the flesh-eater baby.

Ok so, why are we not campaigning to kill of literally everyone who didn't pick up a gun and started shooting at the bad guy since it was the only acceptable thing to do? Because there was a damn lot of those returning companions just doing their own thing somewhere else (and not even helping the orphans!) who we couldn't kill, or even zap. Or did we conveniently forget about them because they weren't our most hated companion character in the entire galaxy..?

 

"We're supposed to take her word on helping" indeed, you also need to take Anronikos's word on "helping". See the issue?

 

Also, if you think all humanitarian aid should end the minute a country gets invaded by another because only shooting the invader matters and everything else is futile, I'm gonna have to say no, it really shouldn't. Period.

 

Kiwiiks example was completely comparable to my point I made before mentioning her, in case you missed it.

 

Also Valkorion's kids were at no point nuking the entire galaxy "till nothing was left". At no point.

-Nobody knows Vitiate is Valkorion first off, Marr discovers this when facing him in person and gets promptly killed off, he wasn't gonna tell anyone. You get frozen right after, you weren't gonna tell anyone. Valkorion also dies in that scene and the public is informed about this, they don't know he is living in your mind. Only a few in alliance learns this later at random points of the story.

-The 5~years you were carbonated Valkorions took Republic and Empire under their control. They were Zakuul's vassals. They weren't nuking anything as long as they got their resource contributions from each party as we learn from Lana in the Gravestone montage chapter.

-The first and only time Valkorions try to kill anything off in planet-wide scale is on kotet first chapter, last year of the 7something years this expansion takes place on. The second time anything like this happens is when the fleet went haywire without Emperor, and even nobody in the alliance knew that was gonna happen. So idk what this mass "nuking of everything till nothing is left" you talk of is, since there is only one such event by Valks, and it's only ended by the Gravestone and Imperial Fleet, not any singular entity.

 

If I'm wrong on any of these points, do correct me, I'd rather not remain oblivious to stuff I've missed or forgotten.

 

 

I'm not going to comment on anything being SJW or not, I'm only interested in how the current lore is, not what the political ideology of whoever wrote it was... Though it seems we share mutual dislike at sjws.

 

Anyway, I digress – I’ve just started an Imperial Agent for the first time and another thing that I have noticed is that male player-characters are introduced to their love interests very early on in their story lines, while female player-characters usually have to complete at least four planets in their characters’ story lines before meeting their ‘significant other’.

Hmm, before or during tar/balm depending on faction (4th planet) we get Kira and Doc, Aric and Elara, Corso, Vette and Malavi, Mako and Kaliyo. That's only one woman more than male companions. Though you can also have a fling with Tharan, and Risha is visible in your ship even if she isn't companion yet. So max 2 more if Tharan don't count. Since we have 3 less male romances in class story it's not bad ratio for early meetups at all considering.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Kiesu

[IoNonSoEVero]

Also Valkorion's kids were at no point nuking the entire galaxy "till nothing was left". At no point.

-The 5~years you were carbonated Valkorions took Republic and Empire under their control. They were Zakuul's vassals. They weren't nuking anything as long as they got their resource contributions from each party as we learn from Lana in the Gravestone montage chapter.

-The first and only time Valkorions try to kill anything off in planet-wide scale is on kotet first chapter, last year of the 7something years this expansion takes place on. The second time anything like this happens is when the fleet went haywire without Emperor, and even nobody in the alliance knew that was gonna happen. So idk what this mass "nuking of everything till nothing is left" you talk of is, since there is only one such event by Valks, and it's only ended by the Gravestone and Imperial Fleet, not any singular entity.

 

If I'm wrong on any of these points, do correct me, I'd rather not remain oblivious to stuff I've missed or forgotten.

 

That one I'll jump in on.

 

- In KOTFE, chapter 14ish or so, Arcann and Vaylin take out five entire planets to try to flush the Outlander's Alliance out of hiding. That's before KOTET and Voss. Arcann specifically tells Vaylin to choose five planets to destroy, and there's a moment in the Alliance base where the PC and their team are talking about the millions of dead from those attacks. So they did in fact nuke everything in that case.

 

- Asylum is also obliterated. While that's a shadow port and not a planet, it still is implied IIRC that it ceases to exist.

 

- If you keep Arcann and Senya alive, one of the people in the Nathema holos in the listening station is a Nautolan woman who also mentions her planet was destroyed by Arcann's forces. Whether this is one of the five planets mentioned above or something different isn't clear, but it's more confirmation that Arcann was engaging in wide-scale destruction.

 

- Darth Hexid says that Korriban was attacked and nearly an entire generation of Sith were wiped out. This is also mentioned by the Star Fortress contact for Nar Shaddaa.

 

In addition to Voss, there are other references to Arcann's forces engaging in widespread massacres and otherwise killing many people on the planets they subjugate. While these aren't "nuking everything" on a planet-wide scale it does suggest that they are involved in quite a bit of carnage around the galaxy.

a. Koth and his crew desert the Zakuulan military because they are asked to massacre civilians on Denon.

b. Choza Rabat says that Zakuul deliberately incites the noble houses to war on Alderaan and it's broadcast as reality TV entertainment for Zakuul.

c. The Star Fortress contact for Nar Shaddaa mentions Zakuul runs a 'secret police' that takes various people away without warning.

 

- There are also numerous references to Arcann and Vaylin wiping out their own forces:

a. Arcann specifically orders the complete extermination of the Scions.

b. Vaylin executes numerous Knights throughout KOTFE and KOTET and in one case tells her brother she killed more because she hates having odd numbers, or something like that.

c. Arcann punishes all the Knights by having them fight duels to the death with each other in one chapter.

Edited September 25, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[Kiesu]

That one I'll jump in on.

 

- In KOTFE, chapter 14ish or so, Arcann and Vaylin take out five entire planets to try to flush the Outlander's Alliance out of hiding. That's before KOTET and Voss. Arcann specifically tells Vaylin to choose five planets to destroy, and there's a moment in the Alliance base where the PC and their team are talking about the millions of dead from those attacks. So they did in fact nuke everything in that case.

 

- Asylum is also obliterated. While that's a shadow port and not a planet, it still is implied IIRC that it ceases to exist.

 

- If you keep Arcann and Senya alive, one of the people in the Nathema holos in the listening station is a Nautolan woman who also mentions her planet was destroyed by Arcann's forces. Whether this is one of the five planets mentioned above or something different isn't clear, but it's more confirmation that Arcann was engaging in wide-scale destruction.

 

In addition to Voss, there are other references to Arcann's forces engaging in widespread massacres and otherwise killing many people on the planets they subjugate. While these aren't "nuking everything" on a planet-wide scale it does suggest that they are involved in quite a bit of carnage around the galaxy.

Thanks!

I was just looking for the nuke-references though since there is so many factions responsible for massacres of all sorts Valks aren't unique on that perspective.

 

I couldn't find the scene in C14 where they speak of the planets bombarded after a quick flip trough, Arcann was going to take his fleet on Darvannis in it but decided against it.

(were they named planets and actually fully destroyed to unlivable conditions or were these just strikes on heavily populated areas on those planets? Nautolan surviving would suggest it wasn't complete obliteration, I don't remember her at all though).

 

Asylum was a space station/port rather than a planet so I'm gonna count that out from planet-scale.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Thanks!

I was just looking for the nuke-references though since there is so many factions responsible for massacres of all sorts Valks aren't unique on that perspective.

 

I couldn't find the scene in C14 where they speak of the planets bombarded after a quick flip trough, Arcann was going to take his fleet on Darvannis in it but decided against it.

(were they named planets and actually fully destroyed to unlivable conditions or were these just strikes on heavily populated areas on those planets? Nautolan surviving would suggest it wasn't complete obliteration, I don't remember her at all though).

 

Asylum was a space station/port rather than a planet so I'm gonna count that out from planet-scale.

 

Yes, it's implied that they actually glass the planets. Arcann specifically has a line to Vaylin like, "choose five planets to destroy" and there's a scene later in the Alliance base where it's confirmed that it actually happened.

 

There's also Darth Hexid and the Nar Shadda contact saying that there was a large-scale assault on Korriban that wiped almost all the Sith out.

 

I don't keep Arcann alive so I've never seen this scene firsthand, but the Nautolan woman who talks about her planet being destroyed by Arcann is in this video at 4:14 onward. She specifically says that millions of her people were "wiped out in an instant." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObdRceYoFY0

 

With any genocide or widespread destruction there will almost always be a few survivors, and in actual nuclear attacks and accidents not everyone present has died, so I don't think the presence of a survivor means that the planet wasn't obliterated.

Edited September 25, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[Kiesu]

Yes, it's implied that they actually glass the planets. Arcann specifically has a line to Vaylin like, "choose five planets to destroy" and there's a scene later in the Alliance base where it's confirmed that it actually happened.

 

There's also Darth Hexid and the Nar Shadda contact saying that there was a large-scale assault on Korriban that wiped almost all the Sith out.

 

I don't keep Arcann alive so I've never seen this scene firsthand, but the Nautolan woman who talks about her planet being destroyed by Arcann is in this video at 4:14 onward. She specifically says that millions of her people were "wiped out in an instant." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObdRceYoFY0

Oh, I found it. Chapter 10.

 

Ok, it's gonna be hard to tell what the heck happened with the 5 planets because they're never named or spoken of again. No wonder it was so unmemorable, took me a while to find it, we don't even know what the heck they blew up, lol. No codex entries or anything.

 

Senya gasps in the scene when in alliance base "whole cities leveled" in the scene though, which sounds a lot less devastating than leveling the entire planet. I guess we literally know nothing about the bombarded planets or their status though, or I'm doing a crap job finding any info.

 

Yeah I don't remember the Nautolan, I haven't done Nathema on the toon that saved Arcann so I skipped her completely.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Kiesu

[IoNonSoEVero]

Oh, I found it. Chapter 10.

 

Ok, it's gonna be hard to tell what the heck happened with the 5 planets because they're never named or spoken of again. No wonder it was so unmemorable, took me a while to find it, we don't even know what the heck they blew up, lol. No codex entries or anything.

 

Senya gasps in the scene when in alliance base "whole cities leveled" in the scene though, which sounds a lot less devastating than leveling the entire planet. I guess we literally know nothing about the bombarded planets or their status though, or I'm doing a crap job finding any info.

 

Yeah I don't remember the Nautolan, I haven't done Nathema on the toon that saved Arcann so I skipped her completely.

 

I think the point though is that Arcann's certainly engaged in acts of genocide and widespread destruction, and Valkorion's children's actions certainly went much farther than just bombing Voss. Saying he "nuked everything" is perhaps hyperbole if we're taking the nuking literally, but he is responsible for murdering millions, if not billions, and destroying planets.

[Kiesu]

I think the point though is that Arcann's certainly engaged in acts of genocide and widespread destruction, and Valkorion's children's actions certainly went much farther than just bombing Voss. Saying he "nuked everything" is perhaps hyperbole if we're taking the nuking literally, but he is responsible for murdering millions, if not billions, and destroying planets.

Oh he absolutely was, and the smaller scale massacares would have made him bad enough even without any nukings. I'm not defending Arkann here, I'm just skeptical about complete obliteration of anything planet-scale since the details are super hazy. Arcann doesn't deserve mercy on any level but then again I also don't expect everyone i know to go and pick a fight with him while severely outmatched.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Kiesu

[IoNonSoEVero]

Oh he absolutely was, and the smaller scale massacares would have made him bad enough even without any nukings. I'm not defending Arkann here, I'm just skeptical about complete obliteration of anything planet-scale since the details are super hazy. Arcann doesn't deserve mercy on any level but then again I also don't expect everyone i know to go and pick a fight with him while severely outmatched.

 

Got it. No, I don't think Arcann deserves any mercy either, and it still baffles me that he has so many defenders, but that is what it is and people will feel however they want to feel about it, I guess.

 

I don't get why Ashara would have been expected to join the Alliance either, especially if she wasn't on good terms with the SI. Neither did Mako, Akaavi, Corso, Risha or Vector, and nobody seems to want to want their heads. There are plenty of examples where apprentices break away from their masters (the Sith Inquisitor certainly doesn't consider Zash their master anymore even though Zash is technically present; the Sith Warrior refuses to rejoin Baras). I have a lot more hostility for groups like the Republic who actively tried to appease Arcann than I do for someone who decided they needed to find their own way after a lifetime of having other people do their thinking for them, like Ashara.

Edited September 25, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[OldVengeance]

Oh he absolutely was, and the smaller scale massacares would have made him bad enough even without any nukings. I'm not defending Arkann here, I'm just skeptical about complete obliteration of anything planet-scale since the details are super hazy. Arcann doesn't deserve mercy on any level but then again I also don't expect everyone i know to go and pick a fight with him while severely outmatched.

 

Well, all we have to go on is that Arcann instructed Vaylin to bombard five planets "until they were dust" and that Senya said there were "whole cities leveled" and "millions dead." We don't know how many people lived on those planets.

 

We also know that he killed millions more during his conquest of the Republic because we get a codex entry in Kotfe that describes Saresh's incompetent strategy in the war costing millions of Republic lives. But if she cost the Republic millions during the war, then they must have been killed by Arcann.

 

Basically we are consistently told he has killed "millions."

Edited September 25, 2018 by OldVengeance

[Kiesu]

Got it. No, I don't think Arcann deserves any mercy either, and it still baffles me that he has so many defenders, but that is what it is and people will feel however they want to feel about it, I guess.

 

I don't get why Ashara would have been expected to join the Alliance either, especially if she wasn't on good terms with the SI. Neither did Mako, Akaavi, Corso, Risha or Vector, and nobody seems to want to want their heads. There are plenty of examples where apprentices break away from their masters (the Sith Inquisitor certainly doesn't consider Zash their master anymore even though Zash is technically present; the Sith Warrior refuses to rejoin Baras). I have a lot more hostility for groups like the Republic who actively tried to appease Arcann than I do for someone who decided they needed to find their own way after a lifetime of having other people do their thinking for them, like Ashara.

TBH I haven't dived too deeply in the Arcann appreciation thread, i don't know what their defense for him even is. I sure can't think of any good defence for him for his actions either. I guess, if you're a 100% pacifist you'd have some moral and ideological duty to forgive every murderer, but that's the best I can think of.

Vaylin isn't any better either, even if her story is far more tragic. She doesn't even show remorse at any point, so I don't know if thats better or worse.

 

Yes not every apprentice even in this very game was expected to follow their masters blindly for an eternity. Cytharat was apprentice of Malgus and he canonically disapproved of his Master nor did he follow his overthrow or come to his aid when his life and fleet was contested. I'm sure theres more examples but he is the firs that came to mind.

Basically we are consistently told he has killed "millions."

...Thanks for repeating the same conclusion Io and I already agreed on I guess? Sorry I don't know what the point of this post was.

[IoNonSoEVero]

TBH I haven't dived too deeply in the Arcann appreciation thread, i don't know what their defense for him even is. I sure can't think of any good defence for him for his actions either. I guess, if you're a 100% pacifist you'd have some moral and ideological duty to forgive every murderer, but that's the best I can think of.

Vaylin isn't any better either, even if her story is far more tragic. She doesn't even show remorse at any point, so I don't know if thats better or worse.

 

Yes not every apprentice even in this very game was expected to follow their masters blindly for an eternity. Cytharat was apprentice of Malgus and he canonically disapproved of his Master nor did he follow his overthrow or come to his aid when his life and fleet was contested. I'm sure theres more examples but he is the firs that came to mind.

 

I stay clear of it because I feel like everyone's fan space is their fan space. Since I'm not interested in participating in that, I will keep clear and let people have their fun. I did speak up when the Arcann romance was first announced and there were some threads protesting, though. It seemed to boil down to a) he was an abuse victim; b) he's really really sorry and won't do it again; c) everyone can be redeemed; d) nobody in the game is an angel; plus one or two people who said his actions were justified or weren't so bad because he was afraid of his daddy.

 

None of those excuses work for me, especially since I have Holocaust victims in my family (ie, actual real-life victims of genocide), so I didn't find it amusing that the LS choice was to forgive a perpetrator of mass murder on Arcann's scale without any repercussions or punishment for him. There are those who would say it's just fiction, and that's true, but I, personally, don't like seeing that romanticized.

 

I also do not appreciate that he is currently the only romanceable male Force user and thought it would have been nicer to introduce a less controversial one.

 

But that ship has sailed and people are going to like him whether or not anyone else approves of it, so that is what it is, IMHO.

 

With the apprentices, I also think death or prolonged disappearance would have been considered a completely legitimate reason to break away and do their own thing. They wouldn't have been expected to sit on Dromund Kaas holding vigil for their master forever, they would have been expected to do what Ashara did: find their own path.

[casirabit]

IoNonSoEVero;9650947

With the apprentices, I also think death or prolonged disappearance would have been considered a completely legitimate reason to break away and do their own thing. They wouldn't have been expected to sit on Dromund Kaas holding vigil for their master forever, they would have been expected to do what Ashara did: find their own path

 

I honestly don't think some people would have called for Ashara's death so much if BW hadn't done what they did to all the others. They killed so many of the LI because people were calling for the death of them just because (1) they didn't agree with them 100% (2) Past history (3) etc without a thought what that would mean to those that didn't want them dead.

 

If they had taken into account how to keep them in the story for those, then most of these arguments would not be happening. I know I really wouldn't care if someone killed all their companions as long as it didn't affect my story. What I do should only affect my story, not what some other person does and this is where I think a lot of people stand.

 

Kill them if you want, romance them if you want but they should have figured out a way for that not to affect anyone else's story.

 

I killed a few of the companions because they didn't work with my character but I sure didn't want my choices to affect someone else's story. BW failed big time on this.

Edited September 26, 2018 by casirabit

[IoNonSoEVero]

I honestly don't think some people would have called for Ashara's death so much if BW hadn't done what they did to all the others. They killed so many of the LI because people were calling for the death of them just because (1) they didn't agree with them 100% (2) Past history (3) etc without a thought what that would mean to those that didn't want them dead.

 

If they had taken into account how to keep them in the story for those, then most of these arguments would not be happening. I know I really wouldn't care if someone killed all their companions as long as it didn't affect my story. What I do is what should affect my story, not what some other person does and this is where I think a lot of people stand.

 

Kill them if you want, romance them if you want but they should have figured out a way for that not to affect anyone else's story.

 

I killed a few of the companions because they didn't work with my character but I sure didn't want my choices to affect someone else's story. BW failed big time on this.

 

I agree completely with you on this. It's not right at all that the LIs who have faced kill options are no longer in the story anymore. There really isn't an 'option' because whatever you choose, the companion is gone, and that isn't how they should be doing things.

 

It hurts the story beyond the LIs too, IMHO. I have not romanced Vette or Koth, but I'd still like to hear from them once in a while, for instance.

 

I personally think there are too many kill options but yeah, I wouldn't really care if it didn't affect my story. But every time someone wants a companion gone, it takes that companion from me, too, and that shouldn't happen.

 

Bioware completely screwed up on this. They shouldn't have offered kill options in KOTFE/KOTET/beyond if they were not willing to find ways to keep those companions around and a full part of the story for those who wanted them.

Edited September 26, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[Lunafox]

 

 

Ok so, why are we not campaigning to kill of literally everyone who didn't pick up a gun and started shooting at the bad guy since it was the only acceptable thing to do? Because there was a damn lot of those returning companions just doing their own thing somewhere else (and not even helping the orphans!) who we couldn't kill, or even zap. Or did we conveniently forget about them because they weren't our most hated companion character in the entire galaxy..?

 

"We're supposed to take her word on helping" indeed, you also need to take Anronikos's word on "helping". See the issue?

 

Also, if you think all humanitarian aid should end the minute a country gets invaded by another because only shooting the invader matters and everything else is futile, I'm gonna have to say no, it really shouldn't. Period.

 

Kiwiiks example was completely comparable to my point I made before mentioning her, in case you missed it.

 

Also Valkorion's kids were at no point nuking the entire galaxy "till nothing was left". At no point.

-Nobody knows Vitiate is Valkorion first off, Marr discovers this when facing him in person and gets promptly killed off, he wasn't gonna tell anyone. You get frozen right after, you weren't gonna tell anyone. Valkorion also dies in that scene and the public is informed about this, they don't know he is living in your mind. Only a few in alliance learns this later at random points of the story.

-The 5~years you were carbonated Valkorions took Republic and Empire under their control. They were Zakuul's vassals. They weren't nuking anything as long as they got their resource contributions from each party as we learn from Lana in the Gravestone montage chapter.

-The first and only time Valkorions try to kill anything off in planet-wide scale is on kotet first chapter, last year of the 7something years this expansion takes place on. The second time anything like this happens is when the fleet went haywire without Emperor, and even nobody in the alliance knew that was gonna happen. So idk what this mass "nuking of everything till nothing is left" you talk of is, since there is only one such event by Valks, and it's only ended by the Gravestone and Imperial Fleet, not any singular entity.

 

If I'm wrong on any of these points, do correct me, I'd rather not remain oblivious to stuff I've missed or forgotten.

 

 

I'm not going to comment on anything being SJW or not, I'm only interested in how the current lore is, not what the political ideology of whoever wrote it was... Though it seems we share mutual dislike at sjws.

 

 

Well, I'm not calling for other companion deaths because they were participating in the war. Vector, as an example was searching for the PC, even using their nest to help, and then the Empire conscripted them to fight Zakuul. Corso and Risha searched for the PC, spent all their credits doing it. Vette and Torian joined the good fight, as did Aric and Elara even if she did fig off when the PC chose what didn't please her. MalaVAI (my god you sound like Ben Irving with your MalaVI lol) searched for the PC so much it even earned him prison time and when he was sprung he fought with the Empire against Zakuul. Andronikos searched for the PC endlessly only as a lunkhead pirate can do. Why would I want to kill any of these people who are fighting the good fight? Still that didn't stop others from demanding the death of my favorite and that didn't even make sense, it was plain giving in to haters, nothing more. I didn't conveniently forget any of these people. I just see them as having more value and being less time wasters than Ashara.

 

I would definitely take the word of Andronikos over Ashara, because he was always decisive and loyal. Ashara was always indecisive and a flibbertigibbet. The SI never knew where they stood with her, especially when it wasn't a romance.

 

What you're not understanding about my point about why Ashara should've been fighting the good fight, is because SHE IS A FIGHTER. All we hear from her when we get her, is how she is the best duelest in the class blah blah blah. A duelist is not meant to pass out gruel, a duelist, especially one that is supposedly good, should be fighting. A warrior is not on the sidelines wiping snotty noses. A warrior fights.

 

And yeah, Valkorion's kids were nuking and trashing worlds left right and center. There are the five major worlds where billions died as well as other locations, that IoNonSoEVero kindly mentioned to you, saving me the trouble of doing so.

 

Thanks for the walk down memory lane, but it seems that you forgot that Zakuul destroyed Korriban and Tython and as they were taking over. The other five worlds and other damage came later after the PC gets thawed. So, given that you don't recall nuking and utter destruction, I'd say there are a few gaps in your memory along the way, again as pointed out by IoNonSoEVero who so graciously reminded and corrected you.

 

It seems that we do agree on our mutual dislike of SJWs and political correctness in games and I will leave that at that.

[Kiesu]

Well, I'm not calling for other companion deaths because they were participating in the war. Vector, as an example was searching for the PC, even using their nest to help, and then the Empire conscripted them to fight Zakuul. Corso and Risha searched for the PC, spent all their credits doing it. Vette and Torian joined the good fight, as did Aric and Elara even if she did fig off when the PC chose what didn't please her. MalaVAI (my god you sound like Ben Irving with your MalaVI lol) searched for the PC so much it even earned him prison time and when he was sprung he fought with the Empire against Zakuul. Andronikos searched for the PC endlessly only as a lunkhead pirate can do. Why would I want to kill any of these people who are fighting the good fight? Still that didn't stop others from demanding the death of my favorite and that didn't even make sense, it was plain giving in to haters, nothing more. I didn't conveniently forget any of these people. I just see them as having more value and being less time wasters than Ashara.

You have some fixation to only look at romanceable characters and nobody else. Almost ALL of the non-romanceable characters were just doing their own thing, not fighting any good fight. Even your very own Inquisitor buddy Talos was just tomb-raiding away again, nothing in his dialog suggests that was helping. Can't kill him either. You really did conveniently forget like half of the companions, I'm sorry to say.

 

Look. It makes sense to me that if you're all powerful and murderous, companions would be smart enough to think of a bail-out plan should your murder lust extend to them. Especially if you've always expressed your distaste to them. So I absolutely am against kill options "just because", I have more faith in them than that.

I'd much prefer more "attack" options and just see how it goes from there, maybe they die maybe they dont. Like with Satele in her chapter, you get to attack her but she gets away with whatever Jedi trickery.

If they ever try to get rid of Lana this way I sure hope it's a attack option, I can't imagine Lana just sitting there accepting our ragefit to be her end without a question, most of these kill options were bloody silly. Quinn could have gotten away too, or tried to, he had rigged the comm-room, he could have tried to put up a fight/do his disappearing act just fine rather than just passively accepting warrior's blade.

 

I would definitely take the word of Andronikos over Ashara, because he was always decisive and loyal. Ashara was always indecisive and a flibbertigibbet. The SI never knew where they stood with her, especially when it wasn't a romance.

Well that is a bias on your end wanting to believe one over the other because your expectations weren't met. Andronikos seemed really fishy to me in that scene, I don't doubt for a second if he wouldn't have gotten captured and dragged to Alliance base, he would have kept pirating happily, no matter if he knew we were in charge or not. Like I said previously, all he talk about is plunder when meeting unromanced outlander.

 

What you're not understanding about my point about why Ashara should've been fighting the good fight, is because SHE IS A FIGHTER. All we hear from her when we get her, is how she is the best duelest in the class blah blah blah. A duelist is not meant to pass out gruel, a duelist, especially one that is supposedly good, should be fighting. A warrior is not on the sidelines wiping snotty noses. A warrior fights.

I guess you sent Kiwiiks out to fight too in unfit condition just because, then.

This is your personal opinion and I disagree with it. Picking up a gun is not the only way to win a war. And there must be life after the fact too, and not just for the strong and able. Someone needs to keep the lights on. Otherwise your views are pretty tyrannical and short-sighted, and I'm not sure why you think anyone would like to fight for you with this mentality out of any other motive than necessity to stay alive in your ranks.

A fitting way of ruling for a proper Sith though, i guess. Put everyone to sword who cant pick up a blaster, or didn't pick up a blaster before i even told them to!

Except she did offer her gun to you, you just didn't accept it because her conditions weren't to your liking. A militaristic pov would accept the extra hand, after all she had literally no other requirements.

 

And yeah, Valkorion's kids were nuking and trashing worlds left right and center. There are the five major worlds where billions died as well as other locations, that IoNonSoEVero kindly mentioned to you, saving me the trouble of doing so.

 

Thanks for the walk down memory lane, but it seems that you forgot that Zakuul destroyed Korriban and Tython and as they were taking over. The other five worlds and other damage came later after the PC gets thawed. So, given that you don't recall nuking and utter destruction, I'd say there are a few gaps in your memory along the way, again as pointed out by IoNonSoEVero who so graciously reminded and corrected you.

 

It seems that we do agree on our mutual dislike of SJWs and political correctness in games and I will leave that at that.

"Nuking everything till there is nothing left" was still the wrong wording to use there, that's why I jumped on it. As it turned out, there was something left, and they were never planning on nuking the entire galaxy. Maybe Valkorion was going to had he managed to take control of your body, but the kids didn't seem interested. I was never disagreeing they did slaughter, just if they were really nuking planets till there was nothing left, like I already said I'm just repeating myself at this point.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Kiesu

[Lunafox]

You have some fixation to only look at romanceable characters and nobody else. Almost ALL of the non-romanceable characters were just doing their own thing, not fighting any good fight. Even your very own Inquisitor buddy Talos was just tomb-raiding away again, nothing in his dialog suggests that was helping. Can't kill him either. You really did conveniently forget like half of the companions, I'm sorry to say.

 

Look. It makes sense to me that if you're all powerful and murderous, companions would be smart enough to think of a bail-out plan should your murder lust extend to them. Especially if you've always expressed your distaste to them. So I absolutely am against kill options "just because", I have more faith in them than that.

I'd much prefer more "attack" options and just see how it goes from there, maybe they die maybe they dont. Like with Satele in her chapter, you get to attack her but she gets away with whatever Jedi trickery.

If they ever try to get rid of Lana this way I sure hope it's a attack option, I can't imagine Lana just sitting there accepting our ragefit to be her end without a question, most of these kill options were bloody silly. Quinn could have gotten away too, or tried to, he had rigged the comm-room, he could have tried to put up a fight/do his disappearing act just fine rather than just passively accepting warrior's blade.

 

 

Well that is a bias on your end wanting to believe one over the other because your expectations weren't met. Andronikos seemed really fishy to me in that scene, I don't doubt for a second if he wouldn't have gotten captured and dragged to Alliance base, he would have kept pirating happily, no matter if he knew we were in charge or not. Like I said previously, all he talk about is plunder when meeting unromanced outlander.

 

 

I guess you sent Kiwiiks out to fight too in unfit condition just because, then.

This is your personal opinion and I disagree with it. Picking up a gun is not the only way to win a war. And there must be life after the fact too, and not just for the strong and able. Someone needs to keep the lights on. Otherwise your views are pretty tyrannical and short-sighted, and I'm not sure why you think anyone would like to fight for you with this mentality out of any other motive than necessity to stay alive in your ranks.

A fitting way of ruling for a proper Sith though, i guess. Put everyone to sword who cant pick up a blaster, or didn't pick up a blaster before i even told them to!

Except she did offer her gun to you, you just didn't accept it because her conditions weren't to your liking. A militaristic pov would accept the extra hand, after all she had literally no other requirements.

 

 

"Nuking everything till there is nothing left" was still the wrong wording to use there, that's why I jumped on it. As it turned out, there was something left, and they were never planning on nuking the entire galaxy. Maybe Valkorion was going to had he managed to take control of your body, but the kids didn't seem interested. I was never disagreeing they did slaughter, just if they were really nuking planets till there was nothing left, like I already said I'm just repeating myself at this point.

 

 

The romance characters are the only ones that matter to me, with the exception of a very few, like Scourge, who I hope will be made romanceable one day.

 

You mention Talos, he's an archeologist, he is not a warrior, not like Ashara who keeps bragging that she's the best at it, and is always spoiling for duels. You can't expect to put a man who digs in the ground with no combat experience to stand up against Force users. I didn't forget anything. Ashara is a force user and a warrior, not even in the same league as many of the other companions. She could've fought and didn't. She's a waste of skin and you'll never convince me otherwise.

 

See, we see things differently. As evil as my characters might be, the way I see most of my companions is that they do everything they can to perform competently. All except Ashara. See, I would've been against kill options, because I didn't want to see any comps killed. I'd have been happy to dismiss or write out the ones I don't like. BUT people started this crap about killing and have killed off my favs, which odds are, I'll never see them again. Do you think it's fair that other people get to kill the characters they don't like, and I can't? How is that fair? I have to lose my beloved companions because others want them dead cause they hate them, but the ones I hate and want dead, I can't kill? IT'S NOT FREAKING FAIR.

 

Also that crap with Satele getting away? That was BS. She was protected by plot armor. There was no way the PC would win that fight against her. Another darling of Bioware's to protect. I'd rather Marr be alive, but nope, they killed him and he mattered to me. This is what they do a lot of times and it sucks, they protect the characters the studio deems as beloved with PLOT ARMOR.

 

I would've been fine to 'leave hated comps for dead.' We 'kill' the ones we hate, but they're still around for others. But that's not happening, and yeah, it's not fair that some get the ax while others are put up on some protected pedestal that can't be touched. That's BS. If you're going to hurt one part of the player base, then hurt all of the player base, or rather, don't hurt anyone (I would've preferred that). That's another thing that irked me about the companion reunion writer, she thinks it's ok the break the PC's heart. No, I'm sorry, I play this game as a fantasy and for fun and I don't need my pixels to break my heart, I had enough of that in real life. I play games to escape and have fun.

 

Picking up a weapon isn't the only way to win a war, but a freaking trained warrior...well that's their purpose. If a trained warrior like Ashara isn't fighting, then she's good-for-nothing and useless. She is not doing her part, for which she was trained. Leave the humanitarian aid to the untalented non-force users. There are enough of them around.

 

My character can't trust someone like Ashara who is wishy-washy and can't decide what she is. Hell, the way she is, she might've joined Zakuul. She's unstable, and that's the last thing you need running around when you're fighting a war. You can't run a war if you're worrying some dingy little putz is going to turn on you. You end her, or put her in jail.

 

'Nuking everything until there was nothing left' was NOT the wrong terminology to use when describing the damage that Arcann inflicted on the galaxy. Five worlds were rased. Millions dead by Senya's count, but Senya might've been underestimating. Worlds have billions of lives and if five of them are destroyed utterly, that's nuking until nothing is left. I mean seriously, how many millions and how many square KMs of a world have to be destroyed for you to consider it nuked completely?

 

My views are not tyrannical and short-sighted. I consider my views/and my characters to be quite pragmatic. Leaders lead. Warriors fight and they have to be stable and trustworthy. Force users are your main force and non-force using warriors are for scouting, and spying or they're cannon fodder. Medical workers tend the wounded, and untalented non-force users are doing cooking, cleaning and helping where help is needed.

 

And useless indecisive whelps like Ashara get dead. Period. She is a liability and of no value and I should have every right to kill her off, just like everyone else gets to kill the ones they hate. Bioware can't put the cat back in the bag once it's been let out. They started this precedent of killing comps, and it's discrimination to treat only certain ones as untouchable.

 

We're never going to agree on this, so as far as I'm concerned, this is my last post, agree to disagree and move on. I just don't have the energy to fight anymore. I was in the hospital over the weekend and then had to spend a couple more hours in emerg today. So, I'm done, for the sake of my health and energy.

[Kiesu]

The romance characters are the only ones that matter to me, with the exception of a very few, like Scourge, who I hope will be made romanceable one day.

As I said, you forgot half of the companion base.

 

You mention Talos, he's an archeologist, he is not a warrior, not like Ashara who keeps bragging that she's the best at it, and is always spoiling for duels. You can't expect to put a man who digs in the ground with no combat experience to stand up against Force users. I didn't forget anything. Ashara is a force user and a warrior, not even in the same league as many of the other companions. She could've fought and didn't. She's a waste of skin and you'll never convince me otherwise.

Do I really need to name all the companions separately so you will acknowledge them? Ogrubb and Sana-rae aren't warrior either, they've been in the alliance since Odessen. Now you're cherry picking who is expected to do what.

Quzen is all warrior, that's literally his entire existence as a trandoshian, stalking the score. But as it turns out he is busy killing wampas on Hoth with Warstalkers. Or is he ok to skip out too because religious reasons? I can keep naming companions who skipped out, there is a whole lot of them.

 

See, we see things differently. As evil as my characters might be, the way I see most of my companions is that they do everything they can to perform competently. All except Ashara. See, I would've been against kill options, because I didn't want to see any comps killed. I'd have been happy to dismiss or write out the ones I don't like. BUT people started this crap about killing and have killed off my favs, which odds are, I'll never see them again. Do you think it's fair that other people get to kill the characters they don't like, and I can't? How is that fair? I have to lose my beloved companions because others want them dead cause they hate them, but the ones I hate and want dead, I can't kill? IT'S NOT FREAKING FAIR.

I disagree. The sooner they realize their mistake and stop killing people the better. I don't want them to now put a kill option on all companions 100% for the sake of consistency, why the heck would I want that when I wish they would have done the exact opposite. I don't wan't them to kill Scourge just because it's expected and people flip their sht if everyone doesn't get killed now. If he turns romanceable now and then you immediately get to kill him, I doubt you'd be happy either, but by your logic they should now do it because they've done it to everyone else.

 

Why do you endorse this behavior nobody seems to want in this thread including you, to have devs repeat a mistake indefinitely just because they have already made mistakes, it blows my mind.

Isn't the point of learning from your mistakes to not repeat same mistake?

 

Also that crap with Satele getting away? That was BS. She was protected by plot armor. There was no way the PC would win that fight against her. Another darling of Bioware's to protect. I'd rather Marr be alive, but nope, they killed him and he mattered to me. This is what they do a lot of times and it sucks, they protect the characters the studio deems as beloved with PLOT ARMOR.

Yeah, if Salete would have been in Marrs shoes instead and died to Valkorion, and Marr was sitting in the woods instead you'd be saying "oh Marr has plot armor he cant die that's bs"

We've had so many important characters die I'm surprised you think anyone will have plot armor for forever. SWTOR haven't been exactly following previous character or faction specific lore since expansions started rolling out, vanilla was still pretty good about pre-existing lore, not so much anymore.

 

NOBODY has plot armor in his game except the player character. He will always be immortal. No matter what.

Well, player and Vitiate.

 

I would've been fine to 'leave hated comps for dead.' We 'kill' the ones we hate, but they're still around for others. But that's not happening, and yeah, it's not fair that some get the ax while others are put up on some protected pedestal that can't be touched. That's BS. If you're going to hurt one part of the player base, then hurt all of the player base, or rather, don't hurt anyone (I would've preferred that). That's another thing that irked me about the companion reunion writer, she thinks it's ok the break the PC's heart. No, I'm sorry, I play this game as a fantasy and for fun and I don't need my pixels to break my heart, I had enough of that in real life. I play games to escape and have fun.

I'm totally fine with pixels breaking my heart. I love games and books with story that are all doom and gloom and about survival rather than happy-fairylands and picture perfect relationships. This is fantasy, I likely won't experience a tragic apocalyptic war scenario in RL, and if I would chanses are I'd be dead before I saw the end of it. So what better place to experience tragedy than trough writing! Relationship drama you get on your every day life, nothing fantastical about that. If fictional heartbreak is too much for me, there's plenty of comedy shows out there to lighten the mood. But I wouldn't expect action drama to switch to romantic comedy just because I felt uncomfortable with it, nor the other way around for that matter. Let the writers write their own vision rather than pressure them to cater to ours. We saw where that got us...

 

Picking up a weapon isn't the only way to win a war, but a freaking trained warrior...well that's their purpose. If a trained warrior like Ashara isn't fighting, then she's good-for-nothing and useless. She is not doing her part, for which she was trained. Leave the humanitarian aid to the untalented non-force users. There are enough of them around.

Correction. She is not doing the part you wanted her to do.

When Abeloth threatened the entire galaxy, every single warrior didn't go to combat her, thought the scenario is similar because Jedi and Sith united to take her down. Both sides were equally threatened. Not everyone joined the fight, not everyone was fit to fight a force being like Abeloth, and you couldn't just trust the good will of the enemy or other factions to stop what they were doing meanwhile and not take the advantage of literally everyone traveling to deep space to combat the incoming threat. It's a very rosy view of the world if that's what you were relying on.

 

My character can't trust someone like Ashara who is wishy-washy and can't decide what she is. Hell, the way she is, she might've joined Zakuul. She's unstable, and that's the last thing you need running around when you're fighting a war. You can't run a war if you're worrying some dingy little putz is going to turn on you. You end her, or put her in jail.

Wait.

So you wanted to kill her because he wasn't fighting the war.

But then you don't want her to fight the war because she is unstable and not trustworthy.

Sounds to me like you just wanted to kill her and were simply making up excuses to do so.

Which is fine, but why have we been discussing if she should or shouldn't have been waging war if it made no difference to you in the first place?

 

'Nuking everything until there was nothing left' was NOT the wrong terminology to use when describing the damage that Arcann inflicted on the galaxy. Five worlds were rased. Millions dead by Senya's count, but Senya might've been underestimating. Worlds have billions of lives and if five of them are destroyed utterly, that's nuking until nothing is left. I mean seriously, how many millions and how many square KMs of a world have to be destroyed for you to consider it nuked completely?

The worlds weren't rased though if just "cities were leveled" according to Senya. Since we have literally no info what these planets even were that got attacked or what their current status is, we can't argue with any factual knowledge, just theorize from fragments of dialog. You'd think 5 planets getting erased from existence would have been all over the news, but we don't even get a codex entry to look over.

 

My views are not tyrannical and short-sighted. I consider my views/and my characters to be quite pragmatic. Leaders lead. Warriors fight and they have to be stable and trustworthy. Force users are your main force and non-force using warriors are for scouting, and spying or they're cannon fodder. Medical workers tend the wounded, and untalented non-force users are doing cooking, cleaning and helping where help is needed.

That is an extremely limited view of the needs of a functioning country, not to mention planets

 

First of all, you sent all your warriors to outer space to fight an enemy. Now all your cleaning ladies and factory workers are dead because the enemy deviated their forces to flank your support, since there was nobody to protect them cuz all the warriors and even cannon fodder are on the battlefield. So what do we do now? Now you'll simply have to do a reactionary retaliation, and the enemy has the advantage because they had a plan, and you're just reacting to it. Where are your resources for war coming now, since your enemy cut them off so easily? Your battle tactics are flawed.

 

But since this is fantasy and the player always wins, it's not so obvious since literally any tactic will win, even sitting on your hand and killing every ally to you possible, making just more enemies.

 

Thankfully you had Lana and Theron telling you to flank, disrupt, reinforce, ally and sabotage every once a while with units defying these roles that you would have only sent to their appropriate camps. In this scenario it was you who won the battle, but them who won the war.

 

We're never going to agree on this, so as far as I'm concerned, this is my last post, agree to disagree and move on. I just don't have the energy to fight anymore. I was in the hospital over the weekend and then had to spend a couple more hours in emerg today. So, I'm done, for the sake of my health and energy.

Hope you get better soon!

If you ever wanna continue I'm happy to chat on discord as well, it's a bit more convenient and faster than dragging things forth in novel format on forums.

Edited September 27, 2018 by Kiesu

[IoNonSoEVero]

The worlds weren't rased though if just "cities were leveled" according to Senya. Since we have literally no info what these planets even were that got attacked or what their current status is, we can't argue with any factual knowledge, just theorize from fragments of dialog. You'd think 5 planets getting erased from existence would have been all over the news, but we don't even get a codex entry to look over.

 

I don't agree with the rest of what Lunafox has said but this one I need to jump on. There are so many planets in the game where major things happen, and we barely see them, like Darvannis, Kaon and Denon. We know Arcann and Vaylin killed millions on five worlds and leveled cities, as well as assaulting Korriban and Tython enough to nearly take out a generation of Force users, which is enough IMHO.

 

I mean, it's not really necessary to explode the planet like Alderaan in order to render it essentially non-functional for a population. Taris technically still has a lot there, but it's not really a home to anyone other than a few stalwarts, the rakghouls and the pirates, and it's counted as being wiped out. If we want to get technical there's life on Nathema and Ziost after they are razed by Vitiate (the animals, the small research outpost on Ziost and the sanitarium on Nathema) and the planet is still literally there with some structures intact, but again, we count them as dead and completely destroyed by Vitiate for all intents and purposes.

 

In our own world someplace like the Chernobyl exclusion zone still has life, some workers and a few people who have returned to live there, but it's still called a Dead Zone. The same is true with the Fukishima exclusion zone; it's considered totally destroyed but technically there are plants and animals there.

 

So point being, just because we don't see the planets blown up like Alderaan or know their names, we're given enough specific information in the game that millions were killed, the people didn't have time to evacuate and cities were razed, which can allow us to reasonably infer that even if those planets were not completely destroyed they have had their populations decimated and have faced widespread devastation. At this point it's arguing semantics.

Edited September 27, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[Kiesu]

I don't agree with the rest of what Lunafox has said but this one I need to jump on. There are so many planets in the game where major things happen, and we barely see them, like Darvannis, Kaon and Denon. We know Arcann and Vaylin killed millions on those worlds and leveled cities, which is enough IMHO.

 

I mean, it's not really necessary to explode the planet like Alderaan in order to render it essentially non-functional for a population. Taris technically still has a lot there, but it's not really a home to anyone other than a few stalwarts, the rakghouls and the pirates, and it's counted as being wiped out. If we want to get technical there's life on Nathema and Ziost after they are razed by Vitiate (the animals, the small research outpost on Ziost and the sanitarium on Nathema) and the planet is still literally there with some structures intact, but again, we count them as dead and completely destroyed by Vitiate for all intents and purposes.

 

In our own world someplace like the Chernobyl exclusion zone still has life, some workers and a few people who have returned to live there, but it's still called a Dead Zone. The same is true with the Fukishima exclusion zone; it's considered totally destroyed but technically there are plants and animals there.

Ok, I can see where you are coming from. And I agree when life if mostly wiped to extinction or the conditions have become unlivable, it's a pretty definite wipeout.

 

I took the "Till there is nothing left" part rather literally, and since there is something left, it's obviously not "nothing left". But you're right, unlivable conditions counts as "rased", terminology jumped ships there mid thought.

 

The issue remains that we don't know what happened to these planets. "Millions dead" wouldn't even be enough to wipe fraction of countries on Earth, it wouldn't be even close enough to wipe the population of entire earth.

We don't know the population of the planets affected, maybe they were small planets that only fit a few million people each or counted to together, or they weren't and and their capitals consisted of millions of people, which were affected. We just don't know, it's gonna be a game of buts and maybes with this many details missing.