Time to merge the US servers... again. Primetime window getting smaller and smaller.

[Andryah]

Planetary comms were different, as they only bought leveling gear -- now you get the gear directly from heroics. ^^ But I explained why pvp players feel some sort of reward needs to be given for lowbie/midbie. If you feel some other reward is better, feel free to share your ideas. If you don't care that there isn't many matches going on in lowbie/midbie, then you certainly have the right to feel that way, but people who do either enjoy those game modes or feel they have a place in the game (=a place for new people to learn pvp before endgame) feel very differently.

 

Hate to have to give you a small history anecdote..... but:

 

Comms could be used for leveling gear originally... but then they moved to "crystals" and had three tiers of them.. with the blue and purple tiers being specifically to buy end game gear (though not BiS.. which at that time came from OPs). The player you responded to used "comms" in their post.. but the reality is it was three tiers of "crystals" that drove the gearing engine in PvE in the expansion cycle that preceded the introduction of GC.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Andryah

[Andryah]

We took over the base because he tried to hide amongst the guards, and since, as you point out, BW isn't really in to moderating PvP, which is, btw, something that happens industry wide a whole lot, players dealing with this is the expected method of handling it. I did the same stuff in Aion, sometimes leaving off leveling toons I needed to level for Legion stuff, to chase rifters back to their own faction's part of the planet, or I got chased back to my part of the planet, if I rifted over to their zone.

 

Yeah.. a griefer parking in stealth inside an opposing faction camp is as old as MMOs... and is done generally to either grief lower level players and often NPCs, or to try to draw end game players out to address it.. .and hence it was to pick a fight in the open world. Before WoW introduced Warzones and only open world PvP was to be had... this was a very popular thing to spark and draw ad hoc PvP. In the era of Warzones or other instanced PvP encounters.. it is not as common... but it does still happen. There have been times when we would see a call for action in guild chat because there was some griefer camping a lower level outpost or camp and killing lowbies. Whether they were doing it to get their jollies killing grays, or just to taunt for some level parity PvP... we were happy to go out there and give them a proper smack down and camp their corpse until they decided to leave the lowbies alone.

 

And you are correct about a studio leaving something like this to players to deal with.. because PvP by definition is player on player conflict and tactics.. and it's not the studios place to intervene unless it is a clear violation of the ToS. And this brings us to the very pragmatic fact that in most cases MMO studios leave it to players to control and enforce to interdict the more toxic behaviors of some PvPers..... either by force of peer pressure (which apparently in this discussion... PvPers claim they cannot do, and are not responsible for), or by force of weapon if all else fails.

 

Players dealing with other players behaviors in a PvP context IS the norm in the industry. And yet it is clear in this discussion that most PvPers either refuse to agree that there are some toxic behaviors by PvPers or simply declare that it is not their issue.. it is the studios. They could not be more wrong here based on my years of playing MMOs ... but of course they are free to simply feign ignorance or powerlessness over this... because that too is a negative PvP behavior. I guess when you think all is fair in PvP.... including griefing.. that is the way you roll.... yet then complain that PvP queues are slow and fewer players are queuing.. even on an otherwise active server.

 

As a member of a guild that does do PvP and generally self-groups to queue, rather then PuG.. we do occasionally backfill with a random player or two when needed. But I can tell you... we explain to them right up front what behaviors will not be tolerated.. and it if they do even a single one of them.. they get booted immediately and we inform their guild (if they have one) about it, as well as spread the word to other guilds we interact with in the form of a blacklist notation. So.. I refuse to accept this "we can't do anything about the small number of toxic players in PvP", because you can.. it's a question of if you will or not.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Andryah

[Seireeni]

Hate to have to give you a small history anecdote..... but:

 

Comms could be used for leveling gear originally... but then they moved to "crystals" and had three tiers of them.. with the blue and purple tiers being specifically to buy end game gear (though not BiS.. which at that time came from OPs). The player you responded to used "comms" in their post.. but the reality is it was three tiers of "crystals" that drove the gearing engine in PvE in the expansion cycle that preceded the introduction of GC.

 

Unfortunately I can't recall exactly how the gearing system went during the "crystal period" -- but I'm pretty sure purple and blue crystals were not given from leveling content.

[Toraak]

Unfortunately I can't recall exactly how the gearing system went during the "crystal period" -- but I'm pretty sure purple and blue crystals were not given from leveling content.

 

The green, and blue ones did drop from heroics, I don't remember on the purples, since all of the gear on the crystal vendor were horrible. Terrible mods, and enhancements in them for DPS and healer classes anyway, so it was useful for only vendoring the gear for credits.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Toraak

[Andryah]

Unfortunately I can't recall exactly how the gearing system went during the "crystal period" -- but I'm pretty sure purple and blue crystals were not given from leveling content.

 

Note: updated post: to reflect correct gear levels for green, blue, purple crystal vendor gear at level cap. Thanks to Toraak for refreshing my memory more accurately.

 

This is not the point.

 

The point is.... prior to GC... PvE players at level cap could indeed upgrade gear to near BiS by simply playing content and collecting crystals, even beginning at lower levels. And even though the blue and purple crystals did not drop until level cap.. they were quite easy to accumulate simply playing whatever you normally play.

 

They in fact did accumulate green crystals and in some cases blue crystals from lower levels all the way to cap.. which would buy gear better then leveling gear from heroic crates these days for the same level, or be held until level cap to get your first round of cap level gear to get you positioned to start OPs. In terms of crystals for a level capped player ... Greens = 208 gear at that time which was adequate for a lot of content at end game other then hard group content. Blues = 216 gear at the time and Purples = 220 gear at the time.. which was absent set bonus but otherwise effectively at stat parity with BiS. And during this time.. crafters were behind the curve compared to the crystal gear vendors.. and personally since 5.0 I am happy to see crafted items be closer to parity in terms of end game gear (thus substantially mitigating the pain of RNG in GC).

Edited September 8, 2018 by Andryah

[Toraak]

This is not the point.

 

The point is.... prior to GC... PvE players at level cap could indeed upgrade gear to near BiS by simply playing content and collecting crystals. They in fact did accumulate green crystals from low levels all the way to cap.. which would buy gear better then leveling gear from heroic crates these days for the same level. In terms of crystals... Greens = 190 gear at that time which was adequate for a lot of content at end game other then hard group content. Blues = 208 gear at the time and Purples = 212 gear at the time.. which was absent set bonus but otherwise effectively at stat parity with BiS. And during this time.. crafters were behind the curve compared to the crystal gear vendors.. and personally since 5.0 I am happy to see crafted items be closer to parity in terms of end game gear (thus substantially mitigating the pain of RNG in GC).

 

Slight correction. Purples gave out 220. the 212 gear was crafted. It went 208, 216, 220 for the vendors.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Planetary comms were different, as they only bought leveling gear -- now you get the gear directly from heroics. ^^ But I explained why pvp players feel some sort of reward needs to be given for lowbie/midbie. If you feel some other reward is better, feel free to share your ideas. If you don't care that there isn't many matches going on in lowbie/midbie, then you certainly have the right to feel that way, but people who do either enjoy those game modes or feel they have a place in the game (=a place for new people to learn pvp before endgame) feel very differently.

 

The thing is, as I understand it, the gear or tokens for gear given in PvP before were for gear that was useleas for PvE. Giving UCs is giving aomething all players need but can't earn until l 70 in other areas of the game. That puts PvPers at N advantage and isn't really right IMHO.

 

If they offer anytbing it should be level appropriate gear (you can still get those in planetary quests) or credits or XP boosts just like lowbie PvEers OR you guys should advocate for PvP specific gear again.

Edited September 8, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[PiiTarr]

Unfortunately I can't recall exactly how the gearing system went during the "crystal period" -- but I'm pretty sure purple and blue crystals were not given from leveling content.

 

That would depend on your definition of "leveling content." Blues could be obtained from heroics, dailies, weeklies, and various event missions (bounty contracts for one). Purples were less common, but the Ziost Weekly gave 4, for example.

[Andryah]

Slight correction. Purples gave out 220. the 212 gear was crafted. It went 208, 216, 220 for the vendors.

 

Thanks for the correction Toraak. That does sound more accurate and actually makes my point even more relevant.

 

I'll update my post accordingly.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Andryah

[Andryah]

On topic... at the end of the day.... it is almost always the PvP player who is creating and prosecuting threads for server merges. They have some valid reasons (such as slow queue pops) to want something done.. but the reality is merging servers is at best only a temporary solution to their issue... as should be obvious after years of PvP servers declining faster then PvE servers.. to the point where the studio threw in the towel and just did away with PvP servers entirely. Today..even the PvP instances on the current servers are largely ghost towns.. which demonstrates that the avid PvPers are only interested in random queued instanced PvP. Nothing wrong with that.. but it comes with some inherant liabilities... such as slow queue pops.

 

You can of course blame the studio for everything.. and if that is your perspective.. so be it. But merging servers will not solve your issues of queue pops. The challenges over PvP populations in this mostly PvE focused MMO are much broader and more persistent than continuing to demand the Band-Aid approach of server merges.

 

I do think the game serves the casual PvPer (players who do some PvP.. for fun rather then for PvP sake and do many other things) pretty well even today... but I concede that it does not.. and really never has... served the Avid PvPer (players who only want to PvP, and not do any PvE) adequately. I'm sure there are some players that fall between the somewhat fuzzy border between casual PvP vs avid PvP... but that's beside the point (as are all boundary line cases in an MMO). This simply is not the MMO for avid PvPers who are unwilling to accept slow queue pops in random grouping.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Andryah

[Seireeni]

The thing is, as I understand it, the gear or tokens for gear given in PvP before were for gear that was useleas for PvE. Giving UCs is giving aomething all players need but can't earn until l 70 in other areas of the game. That puts PvPers at N advantage and isn't really right IMHO.

 

If they offer anytbing it should be level appropriate gear (you can still get those in planetary quests) or credits or XP boosts just like lowbie PvEers OR you guys should advocate for PvP specific gear again.

 

PvP gear was never useless for PVE. It was never BiS either, but you could do basic endgame pve (story mode operations, most hard more flashpoints) in pvp gear. But anyway, that's beside the point.

 

Level appropriate gear and credits wouldn't work, since that's not what those pvp players are looking for. XP might work, provided it would become a faster way to level than flashpoints or just grinding mobs, but wouldn't that be "unfair" too?

 

PvP specific gear had it's issues. First, before bolster, people didn't know the recruit set (which was entry level pvp gear) existed, or refused to wear it, and got murdered in 3 seconds. Even with the recruit gear you would die pretty fast, because the gap between recruit gear and BiS pvp gear was pretty big. Then came bolster, and the way it handled pve gear, anyone wearing endgame gear that was not pvp gear got murdered in 5 seconds aka step 1 of pvp gearing was buying some level 40 greens so you can stay alive.

 

Many pvp players in fact would love to get the pvp gear back. Here, the problem is casual pvp players, to whom this system is much easier. They don't need 2 sets of gear, and they can gear up before they enter their first warzone if they wish to be in a level playing field with the others. They also won't get murdered in matter of seconds simply because they didn't know about the recruit gear/didn't know how bolster works, but those problems could be fixed by changing the bolster.

 

Note: updated post: to reflect correct gear levels for green, blue, purple crystal vendor gear at level cap.

 

This is not the point.

 

The point is.... prior to GC... PvE players at level cap could indeed upgrade gear to near BiS by simply playing content and collecting crystals, even beginning at lower levels. And even though the blue and purple crystals did not drop until level cap.. they were quite easy to accumulate simply playing whatever you normally play.

 

They in fact did accumulate green crystals from low levels all the way to cap.. which would buy gear better then leveling gear from heroic crates these days for the same level, or be held until level cap to get your first round of cap level gear to get you positioned to start OPs. In terms of crystals for a level capped player ... Greens = 208 gear at that time which was adequate for a lot of content at end game other then hard group content. Blues = 216 gear at the time and Purples = 220 gear at the time.. which was absent set bonus but otherwise effectively at stat parity with BiS. And during this time.. crafters were behind the curve compared to the crystal gear vendors.. and personally since 5.0 I am happy to see crafted items be closer to parity in terms of end game gear (thus substantially mitigating the pain of RNG in GC).

 

So basically both pve and pvp players could, during that time, gather gear that would be good enough for entry level endgame pve? Perhaps they should then give pve players some way to gather some UCs during leveling, i.e. from veteran flashpoints?

Edited September 8, 2018 by Seireeni

[Toraak]

So basically both pve and pvp players could, during that time, gather gear that would be good enough for entry level endgame pve? Perhaps they should then give pve players some way to gather some UCs during leveling, i.e. from veteran flashpoints?

 

Not a bad starting idea, however not every PvE player does Vet FP's while leveling, so do you also add them to the story quests? for the GSF players, do you also add UC"s to all GSF matches as well? (GSF matches do not give UC's until level 70) From my own personally experience leveling (mainly a PvE player/GSF player, tho I will rarely do PvP) I know I don't touch anything other then the Story leveling because it is so fast, and easy to do.

 

 

Edit: Something to also consider. If other activities start to also get UC's, will this now make the PvP/GSF queu times even longer? Less people may feel they need to do these activities, if other activities start giving out UC's as well.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Toraak

[Seireeni]

Not a bad starting idea, however not every PvE player does Vet FP's while leveling, so do you also add them to the story quests? for the GSF players, do you also add UC"s to all GSF matches as well? From my own personally experience leveling (mainly a PvE player/GSF player, tho I will rarely do PvP) I know I don't touch anything other then the Story leveling because it is so fast, and easy to do.

 

Unless I'm terribly mistaken, you don't use gear in GSF? So I don't see why someone would need endgame gear if that's their preferred play mode. ^^'

 

Story at least does not require gear, and unless I'm mistaken again, just regular story missions didn't use to give comms to buy endgame gear either (at least not very many). And really, this isn't about giving out free UCs to everyone, it's about encouraging people to do certain kinds of content. I feel lowbie/midbie does need some love, and if you were able to get comms/crystals from certain kind of pve while leveling before, then perhaps that should also be allowed again.

[Toraak]

Unless I'm terribly mistaken, you don't use gear in GSF? So I don't see why someone would need endgame gear if that's their preferred play mode. ^^'

 

Story at least does not require gear, and unless I'm mistaken again, just regular story missions didn't use to give comms to buy endgame gear either (at least not very many). And really, this isn't about giving out free UCs to everyone, it's about encouraging people to do certain kinds of content. I feel lowbie/midbie does need some love, and if you were able to get comms/crystals from certain kind of pve while leveling before, then perhaps that should also be allowed again.

 

GSF also gives UC's now. As a GSF/raider I GSF a lot for UC's to upgrade gear. Many that play GSF do other activities as well.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Toraak

[Seireeni]

GSF also gives UC's now. As a GSF/raider I GSF a lot for UC's to upgrade gear. Many that play GSF do other activities as well.

 

Yeah, and many decorators do other activities as well, but I assume no one wants to give me UC for placing a couch?

[Toraak]

Unless I'm terribly mistaken, you don't use gear in GSF? So I don't see why someone would need endgame gear if that's their preferred play mode. ^^'

 

Story at least does not require gear, and unless I'm mistaken again, just regular story missions didn't use to give comms to buy endgame gear either (at least not very many). And really, this isn't about giving out free UCs to everyone, it's about encouraging people to do certain kinds of content. I feel lowbie/midbie does need some love, and if you were able to get comms/crystals from certain kind of pve while leveling before, then perhaps that should also be allowed again.

 

Well if your going to give UC's for Lowbie/midbie PvP, then all Lower level activities should be getting the same treatment, otherwise you give only PvP play an advantage over every other game play style. Either change it for all activities or leave it so you need to be level 70 to get them.

[Seireeni]

Well if your going to give UC's for Lowbie/midbie PvP, then all Lower level activities should be getting the same treatment, otherwise you give only PvP play an advantage over every other game play style. Either change it for all activities or leave it so you need to be level 70 to get them.

 

If not UCs, what do you suggest lowbie/midbie should give to encourage more pvpers to participate in them while leveling? Not every activity gave endgame comms/crystals before GC (or at least no equal amount), why should it now?

[Toraak]

If not UCs, what do you suggest lowbie/midbie should give to encourage more pvpers to participate in them while leveling? Not every activity gave endgame comms/crystals before GC (or at least no equal amount), why should it now?

 

Well you could give special tokens/comms that have some kind of Vendor attached to them for different legacy gear sets on them, or color crystals or other items like this that have no stats on them (well +41 for the color crystals obviously). Think something along the lines of what they did with the Dark Vs Light vendors we have now, except you get your tokens from doing 10-69 PvP. They simply should stop giving any playstyle PvP, PvE, or GSF any way to get ahead of the game on gearing for Endgame. That should be done at max level, and not before.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Toraak

[Seireeni]

Well you could give special tokens/comms that have some kind of Vendor attached to them for different legacy gear sets on them, or color crystals or other items like this that have no stats on them (well +41 for the color crystals obviously). Think something along the lines of what they did with the Dark Vs Light vendors we have now, except you get your tokens from doing 10-69 PvP.

 

I like those ideas, but I worry most "avid" pvp players wouldn't exactly be interested in them. They're interested in leveling and gearing their new alt fast so they can get on with max level pvp, and cosmetic rewards wouldn't affect that. :/

[Toraak]

I like those ideas, but I worry most "avid" pvp players wouldn't exactly be interested in them. They're interested in leveling and gearing their new alt fast so they can get on with max level pvp, and cosmetic rewards wouldn't affect that. :/

 

Well that leads to the if one gameplay style gets an early start on gearing, then they all should. Cosmetic options are one idea, but I'm sure there are other options that won't give out a way to gear out faster.

[Seireeni]

Well that leads to the if one gameplay style gets an early start on gearing, then they all should. Cosmetic options are one idea, but I'm sure there are other options that won't give out a way to gear out faster.

 

What are those other options? If the players are interested in fast leveling or fast gearing, those seem to be the only options. Would it be less unfair if lowbie/midbie xp was upped to make sure it's the fastest way to level?

 

I maintain my opinion that not every game mode needs to give gear equally, as I feel it's logical game modes that require gear also give gear more easily, but we can agree to disagree in this.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Seireeni

[IoNonSoEVero]

If not UCs, what do you suggest lowbie/midbie should give to encourage more pvpers to participate in them while leveling? Not every activity gave endgame comms/crystals before GC (or at least no equal amount), why should it now?

 

But why do we need to give PvPers anything special? I don't see them handing out UCs to encourage people to do the planetary quests. You either play the content for the level-appropriate gear or credits, or you don't.

 

I think the rewards for lowbie PvP should either be for something usable only in PvP or should be identical to what PvErs get for planetary/exploration quests at the same level.

 

I mean, why is it fair at all that someone at Level 35 can go bash other players' heads in a match for ten minutes and get UCs, but a PvEr can spend an entire afternoon doing a planetary quest like Tatooine with multiple parts and don't get the same rewards?

[Seireeni]

But why do we need to give PvPers anything special? I don't see them handing out UCs to encourage people to do the planetary quests. You either play the content for the level-appropriate gear or credits, or you don't.

 

I think the rewards for lowbie PvP should either be for something usable only in PvP or should be identical to what PvErs get for planetary/exploration quests at the same level.

 

I mean, why is it fair at all that someone at Level 35 can go bash other players' heads in a match for ten minutes and get UCs, but a PvEr can spend an entire afternoon doing a planetary quest like Tatooine with multiple parts and don't get the same rewards?

 

(Note: all these numbers are fake, I have not done actual research on the subject)

Why is it fair someone can do a flashpoint in 20 minutes and get 3000 xp, and someone else does a lowbie warzone and gets 1000 xp instead, and someone else does a long exploration quest and gets 500 xp?

 

EDIT: Base line is, right now people do "play the content for the level-appropriate gear or credits (or xp) or don't." Many pvp players pick the latter option for lowbie/midbie. I understand you don't give a damn about us who do enjoy that game style, but we exist, and it is a problem for us when Bioware makes changes to the game that makes people less likely to queue. I don't care how you encourage people to play that mode, but I do feel some encouragement is needed -- and that encouragement needs to be something that's effective.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Seireeni

[Goreshaga]

(Note: all these numbers are fake, I have not done actual research on the subject)

Why is it fair someone can do a flashpoint in 20 minutes and get 3000 xp, and someone else does a lowbie warzone and gets 1000 xp instead, and someone else does a long exploration quest and gets 500 xp?

 

EDIT: Base line is, right now people do "play the content for the level-appropriate gear or credits (or xp) or don't." Many pvp players pick the latter option for lowbie/midbie. I understand you don't give a damn about us who do enjoy that game style, but we exist, and it is a problem for us when Bioware makes changes to the game that makes people less likely to queue. I don't care how you encourage people to play that mode, but I do feel some encouragement is needed -- and that encouragement needs to be something that's effective.

Then why not simply ask that for the same amount of time spent in a fp and in a wz that the xp reward is the same ? That should be pretty easy to implement and let people who actually enjoy using PvP to lvl do it rather than running fp they don't like.

[Kiesu]

Oh my god I watch one James Bond movie and meanwhile there has been so many messages I cant even find my last one. Umm

The thing is, as I understand it, the gear or tokens for gear given in PvP before were for gear that was useleas for PvE. Giving UCs is giving aomething all players need but can't earn until l 70 in other areas of the game. That puts PvPers at N advantage and isn't really right IMHO.

Original PVP gear was absolutely usable for story mode PVE gear. The difference was there was an extra stat called Expertise that was the "PVP" stat that gave you resistance to player inflicted damage. This stat didn't really do anything in PVE so it was just a bunch of extra stat you didn'r really use for anything anywhere else. But the maximum-tier of PVP gear was two or three tiers lower than the highest PVE gear (compare-able to current tier 230 vs 248, so stat difference is significant to PVE but you can absolutely do SM pve stuff in 230 gear currently).

 

So basically both pve and pvp players could, during that time, gather gear that would be good enough for entry level endgame pve? Perhaps they should then give pve players some way to gather some UCs during leveling, i.e. from veteran flashpoints?

You mean Command Tokens? With those you can buy entry-level gear currently (230).

Not ideal, but at-least you can use them to buy CXP boosts and Iokath Recombinators for endgame grind and crafting with them... Honestly I'd much rather take the UCs, my alts are always in need of implants and relic updates.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Kiesu