Please bring back chapters for story content rather than flashpoints

[Rheshalea]

I have a feeling they quit doing chapters because of all the negative comments and feedback --- they kind of said that in the interview - or at least I heard it

sometimes it is best if we temper our feelings a bit in the future -- because as they say --- be careful what you wish for...

 

I don't remember people being all that negative about the story being presented in chapters - but that may just be my bad memory and/or personal bias.

However, I do remember people complaining about the content of the chapters. And that's a huge difference. Plus of course the fact that the story chapters were the only new content, leaving PvPers and Ops players with nothing new at all for a couple of years.

 

Some solo/story players enjoyed the KotFEET story and presentation. Some did not. Some would have preferred the story to be released in a more traditional way, some not. But I seriously can't remember there having been more criticism about the actual format (chapters) than there was about the plot, the corridor runs, the constant cutscenes that didn't add anything to the story, the poor replayability value because our choices didn't (seem to) matter.

 

But sure, I may be wrong and my memories may well be flavored by my personal opinion. To me, though, it still feels as if the devs just skimmed over the multitude of feedback and instead of looking at the details of what people disliked, they only saw "Chapters suck" and pulled the plug on the 'Knights of the'-story.

[Trlance]

What you ppl expected from folks who said we will have last fp story early 2018 and still nothing? More lies?

 

They will make us wait now another half year for story after fp on Nathema and 6.0 will hit on december or even worse on "early" 2019. And it will be shorter than Iokath ^^

 

Didn't thought i will join to others who start hate this game. I play GW2 as well too and first poster said they have 4 chapters per year what is not bad. I play gw2 already 2 years and still didnt completed 50% of the game. Long live Guild Wars 2.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Trlance

[Plapson]

Completely agree! I want the chapters too.

 

It's fine that they make an expansion like SOR, but it would be nice to divide it into chapters that we could replay. The same goes for the new FP. I would love for them to make these repeatable as a story chapter.

 

Yeah i agree, i really want to be able to replay the SoR expansion without making a new character.

 

Referall: Free goodies here maybe

[Cowoline]

I don't remember people being all that negative about the story being presented in chapters - but that may just be my bad memory and/or personal bias.

However, I do remember people complaining about the content of the chapters. And that's a huge difference. Plus of course the fact that the story chapters were the only new content, leaving PvPers and Ops players with nothing new at all for a couple of years.

 

Some solo/story players enjoyed the KotFEET story and presentation. Some did not. Some would have preferred the story to be released in a more traditional way, some not. But I seriously can't remember there having been more criticism about the actual format (chapters) than there was about the plot, the corridor runs, the constant cutscenes that didn't add anything to the story, the poor replayability value because our choices didn't (seem to) matter.

 

But sure, I may be wrong and my memories may well be flavored by my personal opinion. To me, though, it still feels as if the devs just skimmed over the multitude of feedback and instead of looking at the details of what people disliked, they only saw "Chapters suck" and pulled the plug on the 'Knights of the'-story.

 

I don't think the problem was ever the chapters themselves, but the fact that people blamed the chapters for lack of group content. The chapters were (and still is) a good idea, but it can't be their only focus.

 

The toxic nature of this forum seems to create all or nothing situations, which really suck. I'm fine with them creating an SOR like expansion, but make the story parts repeatable.

[Farferello]

I wouldn't mind the flashpoints as much if when I played them solo I could have the original cutscene back rather than get the 'replacer' cutscene. The thing I liked about Chapters was being able to replay them. I want to run around and do stuff with Arcann? I want to steal a kiss with Theron? I can replay the chapters. Can't do any of that with the stuff from Iokath onward. Makes me wish I'd recorded cutscenes so I could replay them that way.

[Cowoline]

I wouldn't mind the flashpoints as much if when I played them solo I could have the original cutscene back rather than get the 'replacer' cutscene. The thing I liked about Chapters was being able to replay them. I want to run around and do stuff with Arcann? I want to steal a kiss with Theron? I can replay the chapters. Can't do any of that with the stuff from Iokath onward. Makes me wish I'd recorded cutscenes so I could replay them that way.

 

I know, right. My main is a SW, who romanced Quinn. I had planned on running it a few times making different choices and seeing the outcomes. I was so disappointed, when it turned out I couldn't.

[Daezihang]

Eh, I don't care about seeing other people (and please spare the "this is an MMO!!!!!!" mantra). In fact it was just lovely to be in so many instanced areas in KOTFE and KOTET where I didn't have to worry about other people getting in my way or ninja-ing the objectives. I'm all for more chapters like that. It's one of the few nice things about the flashpoint format; one doesn't have to deal with other players.

 

Well, it IS an MMO.

 

It's not some minor point one can brush off, that IS the stated genre of the game.

 

If you don't like seeing other people - and I fully admit sometimes I don't - then you can't really complain. To do so would be akin to complaining CoD has too much focus on guns.

 

The issue with KOTFE and KOTET is the balance was way too much in the phased zones, whereas I feel the vanilla experience got it just right. To almost entirely convert levelling up to be a single player experience seems ridiculous to me.

 

Having phased areas for important story moments is a good solution to the immersion breaking aspects normally found in MMOs - such as standing around waiting for a boss to respawn, or have some max level in luminous pink armour with a horrible name just one shot everything around you. You DO need those open world areas though, preferably with plenty of content that can only be done as a group.

 

It is possible to have both.

[DarthSpuds]

Yes, bring back the story approach that made the game lose the largest amount of regular players two expansions in a row! /s

 

The problem was not how the story was delivered.

 

It was how little there was of it, how mediocre (being generous) the quality was, and what came after it - a big NOTHING.

 

The Chapter release was fine, had they also "tuned up" the Chapters and made them Duo or FP difficulty for Groups they would have had a genuine winner.

 

All The Best

[Rheshalea]

I don't think the problem was ever the chapters themselves, but the fact that people blamed the chapters for lack of group content. The chapters were (and still is) a good idea, but it can't be their only focus.

 

The toxic nature of this forum seems to create all or nothing situations, which really suck. I'm fine with them creating an SOR like expansion, but make the story parts repeatable.

 

Yes, absolutely. Being able to repeat the content on the same character, and even on harder difficulties, is one of the great things with the Chapter format.

How cool couldn't it have been if the Chapters had been multi-purpose? If some of the more suitable maps could have been converted into group content, both PvP and PvE?

I always thought Darvannis would have made for a fantastic (larger scale) PvP map, for example, with all those nooks and crannies and big open spaces. Other maps (or parts of them) could have been turned into shorter FPs - or at least Veteran and Master Mode Chapters could have been marketed more as group content.

 

But who knows. Maybe one day we'll get scaling content that can be whatever the players want, from solo story mode to Ops to WZs to GSF. ....although, I won't hold my breath.

[Rheshalea]

Well, it IS an MMO.

 

It's not some minor point one can brush off, that IS the stated genre of the game.

 

If you don't like seeing other people - and I fully admit sometimes I don't - then you can't really complain. To do so would be akin to complaining CoD has too much focus on guns.

 

The issue with KOTFE and KOTET is the balance was way too much in the phased zones, whereas I feel the vanilla experience got it just right. To almost entirely convert levelling up to be a single player experience seems ridiculous to me.

 

Having phased areas for important story moments is a good solution to the immersion breaking aspects normally found in MMOs - such as standing around waiting for a boss to respawn, or have some max level in luminous pink armour with a horrible name just one shot everything around you. You DO need those open world areas though, preferably with plenty of content that can only be done as a group.

 

It is possible to have both.

 

I agreed completely until that second-to-last sentence.

Some of the reasons I enjoy MMOs (well, not all of them, but some of the ones I've played) is the enormous scale of the world. There's so much to see and explore, so many quests to guide you along. Usually there's classes or races that let you do things in different ways on different alts, and sometimes they have their own stories, sometimes they just start in different areas.

I'm also one who enjoys the easy, familiar "WoW-clone" UI, and couldn't cope with ESO's UI at all. I enjoy have lots of abilities to click, and I want them all visible all the time.

I like being self-sufficient for crafting skills as far as possible, which means I need alts, and they need to have some sort of shared inventory or an ingame mail system. Solo games tend not to have that, if they have any crafting at all.

I like ingame trading systems, such as Auction houses, where I can sell stuff I don't need to other players and buy things I can't get a hold of myself, because I don't, for many various reasons, want to group up.

I like playing in 3rd person perspective, in 3D environments, moving around with the WASD system that feels normal to me.

 

So, for me, group content is not what makes MMOs special. But they're still the games that suit me best, in just about every other way.

[DocDAM]

So, I watched the interview by Vullk and what I heard them say was that they were going to do future story more like SoR than KotXX. SoR was my favorite expansion, and I like that it was a middle ground between chapters and the current story with fps model.

I searched through the video (awesome job by Vulkk keeping it focused!). And found the reference at ~47:10:

"any future story telling will be kind of more in Shadow of Revan Forged Alliances... that's more what we are targeting right now"

By the way he said it, it is not clear if he meant more like:

a) Shadow of Revan proper (Rishi, etc.), or

b) Forged Alliances (FP with both pre, in-FP, and post cutscenes), or

c) both

 

The pessimist in me assumes they meant "b", unfortunately. Would that be all that different than present Umbara/Copero approach (in format, if not quality)? But would love to see that as followup Q to Charles.

Edited April 8, 2018 by DocDAM

[IoNonSoEVero]

Well, it IS an MMO.

 

It's not some minor point one can brush off, that IS the stated genre of the game.

 

If you don't like seeing other people - and I fully admit sometimes I don't - then you can't really complain. To do so would be akin to complaining CoD has too much focus on guns.

 

The issue with KOTFE and KOTET is the balance was way too much in the phased zones, whereas I feel the vanilla experience got it just right. To almost entirely convert levelling up to be a single player experience seems ridiculous to me.

 

Having phased areas for important story moments is a good solution to the immersion breaking aspects normally found in MMOs - such as standing around waiting for a boss to respawn, or have some max level in luminous pink armour with a horrible name just one shot everything around you. You DO need those open world areas though, preferably with plenty of content that can only be done as a group.

 

It is possible to have both.

 

MMO just means that a lot of players co-exist on the same plane. I wasn't complaining; I was saying that I couldn't care less if the entire game is instanced and that the instancing in KOTFE and KOTET was an asset for me, not a negative point.

 

The class stories, Makeb, and SoR are all able to be completed solo. If they want to create "content that can only be done as a group" it needs to continue being optional, so the rest of us can continue ignoring it. As evidenced with Iokath and Oricon, people WILL walk away from questlines rather than be forced into group activity, and that should tell the devs something.

Edited April 8, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[Daezihang]

MMO just means that a lot of players co-exist on the same plane. I wasn't complaining; I was saying that I couldn't care less if the entire game is instanced and that the instancing in KOTFE and KOTET was an asset for me, not a negative point.

 

The class stories, Makeb, and SoR are all able to be completed solo. If they want to create "content that can only be done as a group" it needs to continue being optional, so the rest of us can continue ignoring it. As evidenced with Iokath and Oricon, people WILL walk away from questlines rather than be forced into group activity, and that should tell the devs something.

 

Well yes, by the current XP rates you don't have to do anything other than the main story. That seems a bit excessive to me, and I think you should have to do at least some side missions, either group or solo, or a combination of both.

 

I'm playing through the game again and it is very frustrating that doing even the main planet story is going to overlevel me, and yes, overlevelling still exists because once you hit a planet cap you become far more powerful.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Well yes, by the current XP rates you don't have to do anything other than the main story. That seems a bit excessive to me, and I think you should have to do at least some side missions, either group or solo, or a combination of both.

 

I'm playing through the game again and it is very frustrating that doing even the main planet story is going to overlevel me, and yes, overlevelling still exists because once you hit a planet cap you become far more powerful.

 

The planetary caps are something else entirely.

 

I'm not sure how anyone could really level up just with the main story. For me, I've always done the planetary missions unless I completely hate the planet, plus the side quests. All of which are solo, and are fun. I have no issue with players doing more than the main story, as long as there's a solo option.

 

They could make it easier on players by not requiring a toggle for exploration missions. A lot of players walk right past those quests because the mission signal isn't even on for them. I know the first time I went through the game I had no idea they were there. I brought an older character back to Korriban recently and was fairly stunned to find two quests hidden away that I'd never seen before.

[Cowoline]

Well yes, by the current XP rates you don't have to do anything other than the main story. That seems a bit excessive to me, and I think you should have to do at least some side missions, either group or solo, or a combination of both.

 

I'm playing through the game again and it is very frustrating that doing even the main planet story is going to overlevel me, and yes, overlevelling still exists because once you hit a planet cap you become far more powerful.

 

I actually believe there is an NPC on fleet that can make you turn of all your extra XP gain - so you level "normally". I could be remembering wrong, but I am pretty sure that option is there.

[Damask_Rose]

I actually believe there is an NPC on fleet that can make you turn of all your extra XP gain - so you level "normally". I could be remembering wrong, but I am pretty sure that option is there.

 

The vendor is only available when double xp events are going on. The white acute module turns off double xp, though I've heard it slows down regular xp gains too. I haven't tried that yet, so I can't confirm it.

[Cowoline]

The vendor is only available when double xp events are going on. The white acute module turns off double xp, though I've heard it slows down regular xp gains too. I haven't tried that yet, so I can't confirm it.

 

That might be. I only know there is an option of some sort, but I haven't used it. Anyways, it doesn't really matter as you get XP no matter what and you can do the story missions just for the fun of it.

 

But getting back to the topic, it must be possible to make the story parts repeatable. I know we have alts and so on, but my alts all made different choices and have different romances, so replaying it is fun.

 

I would like to see the following be repeatable:

• Iokath
  
• The new FP(with actual story content): Umbrara, Copero and Nathema
  
• Companion alerts (specifically the newest romance ones)
  
• All story content going forward no matter if it is FP, story instances or something else
  

 

It must be possible to do.

[DarthEnrique]

If they do it like SoR than the chapters it may actually be better as on Rishi there were only about 2 flashpoints that were part of the story. Most of it was like our class stories, where you had one mission and went to do something and then returned and then went out again. In this way if you want to take a break or stop and do something else you can. I actually thought the way they had SOR was actually better.

 

I'd go with this over chapters anyday as they made the chapters where they just continued on none stop after they were fully released. I personally didn't care for that and have on several occasion stopped my toon from progressing the story after Chapter 9 while trying to finish other content such as the Star Fortresses and what not and that is just really bothersome and is something that needs to be either fixed or never done again.

[DuchessKristania]

I searched through the video (awesome job by Vulkk keeping it focused!). And found the reference at ~47:10:

 

By the way he said it, it is not clear if he meant more like:

a) Shadow of Revan proper (Rishi, etc.), or

b) Forged Alliances (FP with both pre, in-FP, and post cutscenes), or

c) both

 

The pessimist in me assumes they meant "b", unfortunately. Would that be all that different than present Umbara/Copero approach (in format, if not quality)? But would love to see that as followup Q to Charles.

 

Lol, tell you what, you can be the pessimist and I'll be the optimist. Maybe between the two of us there will be a nice balance.

[Cowoline]

I'd go with this over chapters anyday as they made the chapters where they just continued on none stop after they were fully released. I personally didn't care for that and have on several occasion stopped my toon from progressing the story after Chapter 9 while trying to finish other content such as the Star Fortresses and what not and that is just really bothersome and is something that needs to be either fixed or never done again.

 

I'm not sure I follow? You disliked the chapters for the sole reason that you needed to press escape in order not to continue?

[pazzakey]

As long as it makes sense, I couldn't care less how the story is done from here on.

[DWho]

I don't see how flashpoints can be any better than chapters. They are in fact much worse from a story delivery perspective. They take all of the worst aspects of chapters and add to that no mechanism for partially completing them and picking them up later (have to start from scratch) and they have zero story replayability (once you play them once in the story progression mode, you can't play them that way again without starting a whole new character). The people who would repeat them don't care about the story in them anyway so for that aspect of flashpoints, they are a waste of the resources used to make them. If they want to make "flashpoint story progression" a thing, they need to be story first and flashpoints second. Multi-million health NPCs have no place in story progression. Those are designed for 4 players not one player and a companion.

[IoNonSoEVero]

The cynic in me wonders if they eliminated the cut scenes from the Umbara and Copero flashpoints to appease the crowd that always howls for the spacebar in group FPs. Because no, they wouldn't' care about seeing the story again.

 

But this is another issue with trying to shovel the story into flashpoints.

[annabethchase]

I could not disagree more. Chapters have 0 replayability for me as there's no rewards and I've already seen the story. The bosses, if any exist, are nowhere near as interesting as a FP.

[annabethchase]

This is a false statement that keeps getting repeated as fact. The only reason they "lost" the most players was that they brought in the most players to start with. Financially both were big boons to the game. The issue was that the players that joined for those two expansions were only interested in story so they left once they had consumed it. For several months though, they paid subs. There has been a steady decline of players since 5.1 which was a focus on group content. Can we then say that group content is driving players away from the game?

 

This is laughably wrong. Getting a decent number of people to sub for a month or two was not the goal of those two expansions. They very specifically built the model to require you to sub every month for the new chapters. The vast majority of subs that existed as of 4.0 were gone within 2 months.

 

I hate that everyone left as it put this game on financial life support, but I understand why they left.