The Importance of F2P and Preferred Players

[cool-dude]

Most f2p players come for the 8 1-50 stories and they are done. Unless you actually invest money into this game, you are not part of the community. If I go play Tera right now without a subscription, I am not part of the Tera community, I'm just someone playing their game for free, and I have no right to complain about what Tera does.

 

Preferred players on the other hand are part of the community, because they are actually willing to support the game.

Edited February 23, 2018 by cool-dude

[Tahana]

Most f2p players come for the 8 1-50 stories and they are done. Unless you actually invest money into this game, you are not part of the community. If I go play Tera right now without a subscription, I am not part of the Tera community, I'm just someone playing their game for free, and I have no right to complain about what Tera does.

 

Preferred players on the other hand are part of the community, because they are actually willing to support the game.

 

This is pretty much the way I see it.. Those that want access to more than the 1-50 stories are the ones that sub. If there was a huge demand for these passes I can't believe that a company who is in business to make money would ignore the requests. As of this point the people posting on the forums requesting this in my opinion are the people who want to cut the amount of money they pay into Bioware and only run OPS or WZ etc in a minimal fashion.

 

Doesn't make any sort of business sense. Also if Bioware would implement something like this again they should do so where buying more than 3 passes to either/or is actually cost prohibitive to subbing.

[SolarSaenz]

Raises hand.

 

I would never spend $20 for virtual currency for virtual cosmetic armor. I probably didn’t even check the CM till hundreds of hours in. The concept was originally alien to me ("Cartel Market with silly gear, whaaat??”). After a very long time, yeah, I started to prioritize cosmetics. And after amassing tons of free CC, I’ve “bought” some. But spend $ on it … never. How many people are like that? We’d all be speculating, but I’d be shocked if it was unusual.

I do not fault or criticize or hold any negative thoughts or feelings about you or anyone for not spending real life money on Cartel Coins. I'll admit, spending real life money on Cartel Coins is a bit of a guilty pleasure for me, and I don't do it that often.

They say that the CM is a big reason this game is still alive, so I think its safe to assume enough people are spending enough of their real life money on it.

I even *HEARD* *RUMORS* that CC sales were helping to fund Anthem, but who knows how true, if it at all, that is.

 

I have no interest in PvP. Thousands of hours in, ZERO warzones, ZERO GSF. And ZERO Ops. Minimal interest doesn’t overcome the time, gear, and leveling curve apprehension. My interest is storylines. There’s 8 stories to do. And there’s still FP’s, crafting, Reputation / Achievement hunting…

That may not be the majority of players, but no doubt there’s a whole bunch of people who prefer solo RPG’s, and would have been happy just with a KOTOR3. SWTOR solo (non-sub) can scratch that itch.

 

I think you asked the questions honestly. Please take my reply in kind.

The 8 class stories and the content initially released with 1.0, to me, are like the crown jewels of this game. That content is actually the only reason I create new characters.

One of the major reasons I came to this game in the first place is that one of the SWTOR team members, at the time of the video, said something like "think of SWTOR as KOTOR 3, 4, 5, etc."

 

I might have still come to this game if it was just conceived as just a Star Wars set a few thousands years before the movies with minimal connections to other established SW storylines.

 

But, the fact that we were going to find out what eventually happened to Revan and the Exile was a big selling point for me.

I would have certainly bought a true KOTOR 3 if they had ever made one.

 

GFS, IMO, isn't worth it, so you made a good decision not bothering with it, IMO. I wish they had just devoted their resources to some other feature of the game instead of making and releasing GSF.

 

My question was asked honestly. Thanks for your answer.

[peter_plankskull]

This is pretty much the way I see it.. Those that want access to more than the 1-50 stories are the ones that sub. If there was a huge demand for these passes I can't believe that a company who is in business to make money would ignore the requests. As of this point the people posting on the forums requesting this in my opinion are the people who want to cut the amount of money they pay into Bioware and only run OPS or WZ etc in a minimal fashion.

 

Doesn't make any sort of business sense. Also if Bioware would implement something like this again they should do so where buying more than 3 passes to either/or is actually cost prohibitive to subbing.

 

The same people who cut servers down to two west coast rather than one east/west leaving apac to die out. Now this may of been a "negligible" cost but this doesn't allow growth, expansion, or a proper community to flourish, and has more affect than simply the loss of $$$$$$$$$$$$$. People play with APAC all the time, if they leave and go off to another game, they no longer have a friend making the queues get longer until they leave and get bored and so on. I know my enjoyment of the game diminished significantly when ever parted around the 5.0 cycle and it was for a little bit just me and three other people playing every night. The same thing happens with preferred, more people, faster queue pops, which encourage people to make friends and play more often together.

[Andryah]

Most f2p players come for the 8 1-50 stories and they are done. Unless you actually invest money into this game, you are not part of the community. If I go play Tera right now without a subscription, I am not part of the Tera community, I'm just someone playing their game for free, and I have no right to complain about what Tera does.

 

Preferred players on the other hand are part of the community, because they are actually willing to support the game.

 

There is a lot of truth to this in my view, though as with any generalization.... it does not 100% represent all members of the group. The mechanics of guilds and guild management by the studio actually reinforce this point.

 

And most Preferred players are actually old Premium players that dropped their sub... yet still whine and fuss about wanting it all back without them having to subscribe again... so on this point we can agree to disagree... because for whatever reason on their part.. they walked away from full access to the game they used to support

 

The truly F2P players... are transients (and I do not mean this in a negative way) ... who have paid absolutely nothing toward the game, probably come and go in a number of MMOs that let them play for free, and in many cases appear in game as lower level characters with obvious behavior problems/challenges. And we know there are subscribers who have multiple F2P/Preferred accounts as well... so it's quite possible they behave themselves on their subscriber account but roll F2P accounts to troll and disrupt other players in game...which some players also do with forum accounts sometimes... though they have to pay to do so.... or freeload troll using referral links.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Andryah

[Andryah]

The same people who cut servers down to two west coast rather than one east/west leaving apac to die out. Now this may of been a "negligible" cost but this doesn't allow growth, expansion, or a proper community to flourish, and has more affect than simply the loss of $$$$$$$$$$$$$. People play with APAC all the time, if they leave and go off to another game, they no longer have a friend making the queues get longer until they leave and get bored and so on. I know my enjoyment of the game diminished significantly when ever parted around the 5.0 cycle and it was for a little bit just me and three other people playing every night. The same thing happens with preferred, more people, faster queue pops, which encourage people to make friends and play more often together.

 

A completely separate issue entirely though .. and you are at risk of derailing your own thread.

 

Personally I would have preferred if they kept an active server on the west coast.... but I also understand that EA and in particular it's MMO arm (all the way back to before DAoC was part of EA) has always had significant server operations presence on the East Coast (Virginia) and EA west coast assets have been more about supporting small group play of their single player games that have an online option. So I do understand the business practicality here. And given they eliminated the 3 APAC servers after the first year post launch for very low populations....clearly APAC audience does not represent a good ROI for them (and I am in no way assigning blame to either side on this..... as the fact is APAC is a small audience for most MMOs and as such has few MMOs with localized servers in that region... which DOES means something).

Edited February 23, 2018 by Andryah

[jimmorrisson]

At this late stage of the game, I'm all for opening the game up to F2P and Preferred.

[Andryah]

At this late stage of the game, I'm all for opening the game up to F2P and Preferred.

 

Why?

 

So that subscribers all drop their subscriptions, and the company then puts more emphasis on micro-transactions... since they are not a charity?? It makes no sense really.

 

Personally, while I only play MMOs as a subscriber and completely avoid any MMO that does not have a subscription option.... I do understand that there are players that enjoy getting what they get for free... and that is each players choice to make. But I also understand that there has to be an actual value proposition that encourages subs to sub... and your idea largely erodes that to dust.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Andryah

[translucentwolf]

And most Preferred players are actually old Premium players that dropped their sub... yet still whine and fuss about wanting it all back without them having to subscribe again... so on this point we can agree to disagree... because for whatever reason on their part.. they walked away from full access to the game they used to support .

 

This right here....

 

This right here. And the people screaming on the boards for 'more stuff for f2p!' today, will be the silent f2p players of tomorrow.

 

Keep screaming if you like.

 

But if you want to be screaming about Ops.....

 

Keep paying.

[Sareeph]

Except the two aren't related, at all and the latter I heavily disagree with. Or, if you did want to tie them, you could make the case that the entire model is going the wrong way, with subs merely getting the full game and F2P/Prefs getting "punished" for not subbing- a negative model. A positive model on the other hand would be F2P/Prefs getting just the game whereas subs get all sorts of crazy perks. But perspective can skew the tables either way.

 

I'm all for a recurring, stable system of rewarding subs. But like the now fabled "bountiful content updates" it may be too late.

 

What kind of crazy perks are you envisioning? If FTP were to have access to the full game that subs enjoy now, the only perks a sub could gain would be cosmetic. Anything other than cosmetic would be pay to win. I certainly wouldn't sub for cosmetic reasons.

[translucentwolf]

What kind of crazy perks are you envisioning? If FTP were to have access to the full game that subs enjoy now, the only perks a sub could gain would be cosmetic. Anything other than cosmetic would be pay to win. I certainly wouldn't sub for cosmetic reasons.

 

The usual ask from these guys is 'give out free items like mounts, armor, etc.'

 

Which would, you know, give subs less reasons to buy cms to use on packs.

 

I, personally, would be happy to see f2p and preferred players *all* cut loose. If they don't pay... **** 'em.

[peter_plankskull]

The usual ask from these guys is 'give out free items like mounts, armor, etc.'

 

Which would, you know, give subs less reasons to buy cms to use on packs.

 

I, personally, would be happy to see f2p and preferred players *all* cut loose. If they don't pay... **** 'em.

 

That attitude helps no one, a lot of good people started the game f2p, myself included, and what's left of the preferred community would lead to further MadCuzBad posts complaining lack of pops. Most of you I presume don't want that. We need to foster and care for what's left of our preferred community, letting them flourish and grow, amd allowing them to do ops again. It's better to reinstate passes to keep a player than letting them go off and play another game.

[translucentwolf]

They're flourishing well enough as is. F2P gets you to lvl 50. If you want endgame, you pay for endgame.

 

Nuff said.

[Jeweledleah]

They're flourishing well enough as is. F2P gets you to lvl 50. If you want endgame, you pay for endgame.

 

Nuff said.

 

people like you don't get it. the primary issue with f2p model in this game other then how absolutely obnoxious it is is that f2p players? do get everything best that is solo about this game. so... they exist in a state that does NOTHING to help subscribers. it should be the exact opposite.

[translucentwolf]

people like you don't get it. the primary issue with f2p model in this game other then how absolutely obnoxious it is is that f2p players? do get everything best that is solo about this game. so... they exist in a state that does NOTHING to help subscribers. it should be the exact opposite.

 

I believe they get 5 pvp matches/week? And some GSF. And heroics.

 

So, you're not getting it. They help me. I kill them now and then.

 

I don't need them in Ops.

[Jeweledleah]

I believe they get 5 pvp matches/week? And some GSF. And heroics.

 

So, you're not getting it. They help me. I kill them now and then.

 

I don't need them in Ops.

 

right. because who needs shorter wait times for anything or larger more thriving multiplayer community, amiright? lets not remember why swtor went f2p in a first place.

[translucentwolf]

right. because who needs shorter wait times for anything or larger more thriving multiplayer community, amiright? lets not remember why swtor went f2p in a first place.

 

Waits are short enough now, thank you very much. I get an immediate pop when I queue for groupfinder. I never wait more than a few minutes for a pvp pop.

 

Your argument is invalid.

[Jeweledleah]

Waits are short enough now, thank you very much. I get an immediate pop when I queue for groupfinder. I never wait more than a few minutes for a pvp pop.

 

Your argument is invalid.

 

and they only had to merge the heck out of servers to accomplish that. honestly, my theory is that you all anti f2p realize that the game doesn't offer enough value to justify subscription on its own, so the only way you can justify it to yourself is by this misplaced superiority and derision directed at those that do not subscribe.

 

a pity.

[Andryah]

people like you don't get it. the primary issue with f2p model in this game other then how absolutely obnoxious it is is that f2p players? do get everything best that is solo about this game. so... they exist in a state that does NOTHING to help subscribers. it should be the exact opposite.

 

In my view there is both a hidden and a self-conflicting agenda here.

 

1) You want F2P to have free access to everything so that they can be fodder for your personal wants and needs in group activity.

 

2) But you and others will also complain that these same players suck at playing and pull you down in your playing wants and needs.

 

But you know what.. none of this back and forth in the thread really matters for what you seek.... because the studio can and will adjust the business model as they see the need over time.. and personal agendas and desires on the part of particular interest groups will not factor into any adjustments they make or do not make to the game. All the hot air opining in the world will not change this.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Andryah

[Celise]

Although it's been quite sometime since I've seen a direct thread talking about f2p and preferred players, I've seen quite a lot of dissing on these groups of player through comments in game, and on the forum, that they contribute nothing to the game. Yes, its true, they may not contribute financially to the game, but they contribute to other very important and vital parts to the game - the community. The community, imo, is one of the most important parts of any multiplayer game, a place where you can chat, socialize, and be yourself with like minded peers who share your interests, passions, and enthusiasm, however, due to one of the removed features years ago, and how galactic command is implemented, preferred have been left out to dry on the rack.

 

That certain feature that was removed helped bridge the gap allowing preferred and subs to play together for endless ours of fun until exhaustion, until work called, until the kids called, until the wife/husband called, until you fell asleep at your keyboard, which was, ops passes. As you know, ops passes gave preferred players one week of access to operations, this games versions of raids, a place where a strong community is needed to overcome obstacles with your mind and your peers. While you may scoff in disgust and go "just subscribe, its only 15$ a month," keep in mind, that financial situations do go on between people that may prevent them with enough money to sub continuously, which happened to a VERY good friend of mine.

 

For his sake, I will keep his details rather scarce, but he is a very good man who tries very hard to get a job, but due to a disability, he could only sub for a few months. During that time, we had a ball together conquering world bosses on Balsavis, quesh, even the nightmare pilgrim at times, etc. etc. tons of flashpoints, and our personal favorite- operations. At one time we were practically doing operations everyday during the beginning of a new era, the 4.0 cycle, a time, for us at least, where we got to experience all the bosses in full, not 5 or 10 levels over, but on par, albeit a few nerfed mechanics, where we now worried about mechanics and actual rotations. This lasted a good while going through some vigorous wipes, some bosses lasting... eight hours ...(damn you hyper gate irregularities!!!) until we really saddled up... and started our own raiding group.

 

Fast forward in time a bit, we now can easily conquer any story mode with our eyes shut closed and mouths sewn together, but during that time, our friend could no longer sub. Needless to say, we didn't worry much, we could still gear him and bring him along through a ops pass, no muss no fuss. Now, we were a pretty new group to raiding, and we had some problems, but we enjoyed all meeting up together just to wipe over and over. We had a lot of good laughs, frustrations, and even a little bit of rage, but we were together, we were enjoying our selves, being a community up until that fateful day... The day they terminated passes. The day that everything changed...and effected more than him.

 

While this may look on paper, a no loss in money, another skrebby preferred player off to freeload another game, it led to a chain reaction that eventually caused us to stop raiding, and for a few people to move on from the game. My good friend happened to be a tank, a exotic and rare breed in swtor, finding another tank isn't easy and didn't go well. Most are taken at a young age and tamed through other guilds, others are simply dysfunctional, standing in AOE, blaming the healers for there own mistakes, and refuse to guard players who take threat. The worst offenders of this breed, are the half breeds, this who only queue tank, and have dps gear, or attempt to skank tank in PVE, and do neither job effectively or efficiently, causing extra strain on the healer. Yes, we found another tank, but evidently it was too late, players were disinterested now, they lacked the excitement, that rush, that feel of battle, fighting a new ops boss, and out of the 10 or so people who were on the group, only 4-5 of us stayed, and those of us who did stay, played severely less, and limited our time a lot more. We lost our connection with the game, but we still straddled on, and to this day, only one of that raid group returned, and that was only a month ago.

 

This simple error while costing no money on paper, lead to a loss of, for the longest time, six players, and also leads to my next point, the loss of community. Their are four parts of the community, whales, subs, preferred, and f2p. Sort of like a hierarchy, or ecosystem, they feed off each other. The whales buy the cartel packs, generating the most revenue, and while yes, they do sell to other whales occasional, they normally sell it to a much larger part of the community, subs. In return, the subs play together, and previously, preferred, while preferred play with f2p. I still remember doing my first set of heroics on Balmorra with four people, and with the exception of one of us, the rest of us weren't a sub. One of the members were preferred, and little old I, was a simply f2p at a time. We were there for the sub, helping him through his heroics, and in return, we friended each other. I still remember the preferred player crafting me a armor piece, and although I couldn't equip the gear, its a gesture I appreciated and remember YEARs later. If I didn't start the game as a f2p, I probably wouldn't of been playing at all, and I would be missing a great deal of fun in my life. A place I've spent years here, and hope to do so for many many MANY more.

 

IMO, we NEED more blocks to help build the community, not to be separated. Reinstate ops passes, warzone passes and implement passes to gain CXP.

 

Tl;dr, my friend can't play the game any more because of GC. Please remove GC and bring back the 4.0 system so my friend can return.

 

as for the rest of it? that boat has long set sail, you are about a year and a half late to the docks to make any sort of comment on it and Bioware don't seem to care. I made comments about GC being the worst thing around for a few months after its launch, i said at the time that it is destructive and counter productive and it proved very much the case. After Bioware just ignored all of it there was no point trying to make any further comments on it as the community as usual is split on the subject. It goes to show what the rest of the community thought on the idea of "free loader" prefs and f2p'ers. you can't rely on the community so long as each person is out for themselves and as a result there was no major protest against Bioware.

[Jeweledleah]

In my view there is both a hidden and a self-conflicting agenda here.

 

1) You want F2P to have free access to everything so that they can be fodder for your personal wants and needs in group activity.

 

2) But you and others will also complain that these same players suck at playing and pull you down in your playing wants and needs.

 

But you know what.. none of this back and forth in the thread really matters for what you seek.... because the studio can and will adjust the business model as they see the need over time.. and personal agendas and desires on the part of particular interest groups will not factor into any adjustments they make or do not make to the game. All the hot air opining in the world will not change this.

 

1. I have never complained about f2p players sucking, THAT usualy comes from anti f2p contingent of these forums

2. I didn't say free acess to everything either, however at the minimum, preferred accounts that unlocked max level? should have acess to max level multiplayer content.

3. given bioware's and EA's choices lately - not just for swtor either? forgive me for doubting their ability to make good decisions for properties they are mismanaging. you are correct that especially given my previous sentence, this conversation is unlikely to result in any actual changes to the game, but on an off chance that it might - it needs to be had.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Jeweledleah

[translucentwolf]

Preferred no longer pay for sub.

 

Preferred no longer have endgame access.

 

You want endgame you pay for endgame.

 

Seriously. This is a capitalist society. If you prefer to get everything free there are places for that. Try the game culture there.

[casirabit]

It might be beneficial to find out why the preferred players stop paying a sub and work on the problems. While some may have financial problems, some may have done so because of something that the game is doing or not doing. While I have always paid a sub (other than when I stop playing) I can see reasons why a person was subing went preferred. The may not feel the game is meeting their needs in the game. Maybe instead of attacking preferred players (and F2P as well) it might be beneficial to see what the company can do to bring back the preferred and to encourage F2P to become subscribers.

 

Sure there will be some that never will be but that doesn't mean you stop trying. Instead of attacking F2P and preferred try to find out why they are not subscribers. I don't think making them feel like 2nd class citizens is the answer and no one should be made to feel like that.

Edited February 24, 2018 by casirabit

[Andryah]

It might be beneficial to find out why the preferred players stop paying a sub and work on the problems. While some may have financial problems, some may have done so because of something that the game is doing or not doing. While I have always paid a sub (other than when I stop playing) I can see reasons why a person was subing went preferred. The may not feel the game is meeting their needs in the game. Maybe instead of attacking preferred players (and F2P as well) it might be beneficial to see what the company can do to bring back the preferred and to encourage F2P to become subscribers.

 

Sure there will be some that never will be but that doesn't mean you stop trying. Instead of attacking F2P and preferred try to find out why they are not subscribers. I don't think making them feel like 2nd class citizens is the answer and no one should be made to feel like that.

 

Given the diversity of any MMO player base... I think it is a wide range of reasons why someone drops a sub and continues playing as preferred. So... it's not a simple as you present it.... and the way you present it leans directly into the "game sucks, I refuse to sub anymore" protests. Note: I am in no way saying said players cannot feel that way or should not... as each player has particular interests, wants, needs..... but protests are... protests.. and if we had the ability to look at the logs of the feedback from players about why they quit (since they can do that when they cancel)... we would see a wide range of reasons and no dominant clear correlation to focus on.

 

But if there is a common theme with MMO players these days... it is ---> "I want more for less" which is why a subscription only business model has largely collapsed in the MMO market place.

 

When I took a break from the game and dropped sub shortly after 3.0 released... I did NOT play the game as Preferred.... because... that defeats the purpose of taking a break for me (taking a breath, giving things some time, and giving my self a break from frustrations). I'm sure there are others like me, as well as a full range of reasons.

 

You seem to think an MMO can be all things to all players.... but they simply can't. In addition, MMO players in many cases are more nomadic in todays market and not as persistently loyal to a particular MMO. This is probably one of the largest and most consistent shifts in the playerbase of MMOs over the years..... and a proliferation of MMO choices and moving to flexible access models reinforces this.

 

TL;DR different people have different wants and needs and most will keep seeking until they find it. There is no way any studio can please everyone, and the MMO market offers a lot of opportunity for players to move around, often without having to sink money into an MMO in doing so. It is a "play the field" sort of player base these days.

[Andryah]

3. given bioware's and EA's choices lately - not just for swtor either? forgive me for doubting their ability to make good decisions for properties they are mismanaging. you are correct that especially given my previous sentence, this conversation is unlikely to result in any actual changes to the game, but on an off chance that it might - it needs to be had.

 

Sincere question Jeweldleah... if you genuinely feel this way...... why would you continue to do business with a company you have so little trust and respect for?

 

I get that you feel voices create change... but while that is true to some extent regarding important social issues... it is a fantasy in the context of things like video games which most players consume until they are out of food and then move on.

 

As for the discussion topic here... no MMO studio is going to shift their business model simply based on players wanting more for less. They will be looking at the total picture... and frankly... that includes letting the minority elements and extremists in their game audience leave rather then endlessly try to please the unpleasable. NOTE: I mean this in a broad general sense (looking at this from a business point of view, rather then player point of view) and not directed at any specific player or player group. At the end of the day... a business is going to do what they judge to be best for their product or service overall in the context of a customer base, which by definition means they are not going to please everyone. Heck.. this little clutch of active forum posters in this forum rarely agree on anything and press discussion and interests at cross purposes to each other often.

 

The only ability I have seen to actually influence an MMO studio to do what players want in the last 20 years of playing ---> small boutique studios who target fairly focused niche groups of players. There are not many of these around anymore either... showing that in the MMO space this approach to business is simply not a successful approach. Which is NOT to say that studios do not listen to feedback... they do... but they do not respond to all feedback received... there is simply no way they can.

 

Personally, I think they have the business model tuned about right with this MMO. I do feel they need to add back weekly passes and other consumables from the CM that allow players a wide range of a la carte choices other then a subscription. Their removal of passes was a mistake in my view (the studio may disagree of course), but I do see why they did it when they did... but it is time to go back to the way it was AND add other unlocks and passes as well.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Andryah