Women have to slap men in order to appear strong? Spoilers

[annabethchase]

That makes sense. The only problem is that the bombers likely did not have hyperdrives (I would imagine). Therefore, even if they manage to destroy the dreadnaught, they are "dead in the water" as the other imperial ships would destroy them. True suicide mission.

 

Now, if they all did have hyperdrives, then it would only make sense for the rest of the fleet to take off when Poe went rogue... whether it was the plan or not.

 

There's a canon novel "cobalt squad" that says these bombers have hyperdrives.

[AlienEyeTX]

There's a canon novel "cobalt squad" that says these bombers have hyperdrives.

 

Ok then. Poor leadership.

 

Or, just a movie and we do these things to increase drama.

[madcowdiseiz]

Maybe I missed it when watching TLJ, but where are we supposed to get the idea that Poe was only acting out of selfish need for glory, apart from the statements made by Leia and Holdo? I never got that feeling from his actions before that. It seemed like he was acting out of the sincere belief that what he was doing was right.

 

Also, I might have the events wrong here but if I remember correctly Poe had already taken out the defensive turrets on the fleet killer ship when he was told to disengage and bombers were already in the "air" relatively close to their target. If they didn't engage at that point, what would have been the benefit of taking out the turrets? The main gun was still functional. The turrets are there to protect the platform for the main gun.

[AlienEyeTX]

Maybe I missed it when watching TLJ, but where are we supposed to get the idea that Poe was only acting out of selfish need for glory, apart from the statements made by Leia and Holdo? I never got that feeling from his actions before that. It seemed like he was acting out of the sincere belief that what he was doing was right.

 

Also, I might have the events wrong here but if I remember correctly Poe had already taken out the defensive turrets on the fleet killer ship when he was told to disengage and bombers were already in the "air" relatively close to their target. If they didn't engage at that point, what would have been the benefit of taking out the turrets? The main gun was still functional. The turrets are there to protect the platform for the main gun.

 

Of course he thought he was right. But, he wasn't looking at the big picture.

 

At the time he is told to disengage, they are not past the point of no return. Poe gets all starry-eyed about destroying a dreadnaught and doesn't think of the cost to the Resistance.

[TalonVII]

Of course he thought he was right. But, he wasn't looking at the big picture.

 

At the time he is told to disengage, they are not past the point of no return. Poe gets all starry-eyed about destroying a dreadnaught and doesn't think of the cost to the Resistance.

 

Yeah and in that scene had he NOT attacked, the Raddish wouldn't of been there to go back to. That dreadnought came seconds from destroying the resistance fleet.

 

Did he lose the bombers? Yes. Did he accomplish the mission. Yes he did. Just ask the 8th and 15th air forces how many bombers they lost attacking Nazi Germany.

 

When you commit to an assault like that PEOLPLE ARE GOING TO DIE. Want to put this in SW terms, how many people did Leia sacrifice during the battle of Hoth to make sure the rebels could get enough people away to survive? A hell of a lot more than Poe did to ensure the survival.

 

Makes Leia a hypocrite. Had Poe not lead that attack, Leia wouldn't of been there to slap him in the first place. Makes Leia and Holdo WRONG.

 

It would of been one thing had he failed and Leia slapped him. It's quite another to accomplish the mission and get slapped.

 

Poe Dameron SAVED THE RESISTANCE.

[AlienEyeTX]

Yeah and in that scene had he NOT attacked, the Raddish wouldn't of been there to go back to. That dreadnought came seconds from destroying the resistance fleet.

 

Did he lose the bombers? Yes. Did he accomplish the mission. Yes he did. Just ask the 8th and 15th air forces how many bombers they lost attacking Nazi Germany.

 

When you commit to an assault like that PEOLPLE ARE GOING TO DIE. Want to put this in SW terms, how many people did Leia sacrifice during the battle of Hoth to make sure the rebels could get enough people away to survive? A hell of a lot more than Poe did to ensure the survival.

 

Makes Leia a hypocrite. Had Poe not lead that attack, Leia wouldn't of been there to slap him in the first place. Makes Leia and Holdo WRONG.

 

It would of been one thing had he failed and Leia slapped him. It's quite another to accomplish the mission and get slapped.

 

Poe Dameron SAVED THE RESISTANCE.

 

The Resistance fleet was going to retreat. There is every chance that they would have been able to get out in time. They didn't know that they would be followed, so it made sense to run and fight another day.

 

I'm not even sure how much they gained by taking out that dreadnaught. It wasn't the only one that the FO had, so it's not like making an all-out assault on the Death Star or Starkiller Base, where they know they have to destroy the big bad or die trying.

 

Yes, losses are going to happen in war. And calculated losses are a thing. However, they could have made it out without taking the losses. Poe didn't gain any extra time for anyone after his initial assault on the cannons. He didn't cause a distraction to aid in a successful escape. He extended the battle, lost the entire bomber fleet, and only gained a minor "victory" in taking out one FO ship.

 

Poe should have taken out the cannons and then sped back to the fleet for the escape while the dreadnaught was still taking pot shots at the surface.

 

He's lucky he only got a slap and a demotion.

[-IceHawk-]

Poe is the reason that the Resistance could evacuate the base and that the fleet had the time to jump to hyperspace.

 

He served as a distraction to General Hux and bought them time...even the commander of the Dreadnought commented on it.

 

And if the Dreadnought survives the first engagement and shows up against the fleet after the jump, there is a good chance it's main cannons could nail the Raddus almost immediately.

[AlienEyeTX]

Poe is the reason that the Resistance could evacuate the base and that the fleet had the time to jump to hyperspace.

 

He served as a distraction to General Hux and bought them time...even the commander of the Dreadnought commented on it.

 

And if the Dreadnought survives the first engagement and shows up against the fleet after the jump, there is a good chance it's main cannons could nail the Raddus almost immediately.

 

The Resistance had no idea they could be tracked. You argument is irrelevant.

[annabethchase]

Poe is the reason that the Resistance could evacuate the base and that the fleet had the time to jump to hyperspace.

 

He served as a distraction to General Hux and bought them time...even the commander of the Dreadnought commented on it.

 

And if the Dreadnought survives the first engagement and shows up against the fleet after the jump, there is a good chance it's main cannons could nail the Raddus almost immediately.

 

Regardless of whether the Dreadnought could have gotten off a shot in time to stop them over D'Qar, do you agree it was probably a good idea to take it out while they had a chance? Especially once the operation was already underway and Poe was already risking his life on the mission?

[TalonVII]

The Resistance fleet was going to retreat. There is every chance that they would have been able to get out in time. They didn't know that they would be followed, so it made sense to run and fight another day.

 

I'm not even sure how much they gained by taking out that dreadnaught. It wasn't the only one that the FO had, so it's not like making an all-out assault on the Death Star or Starkiller Base, where they know they have to destroy the big bad or die trying.

 

Yes, losses are going to happen in war. And calculated losses are a thing. However, they could have made it out without taking the losses. Poe didn't gain any extra time for anyone after his initial assault on the cannons. He didn't cause a distraction to aid in a successful escape. He extended the battle, lost the entire bomber fleet, and only gained a minor "victory" in taking out one FO ship.

 

Poe should have taken out the cannons and then sped back to the fleet for the escape while the dreadnaught was still taking pot shots at the surface.

 

He's lucky he only got a slap and a demotion.

 

God did anyone even WATCH the scene? Unless Leia was prepared to leave a good portion of the resistance behind(which she wasn't) the dreadnought was going to fire BEFORE the Raddish withdrew.

 

Meaning if Poe hadn't attacked, there was no way the Raddish escapes or survives. And if the dreadnought hadn't taken out the Raddish, other two ships would of never survived long enough to jump.

 

So that point is moot. Had Poe not done his job, there would of been no fleet to argue over, or the ships would of been forced to jump before the evacuation was done, or sustain heavy damage and a lot more casualties then what Poe lost.

 

Sorry, Leia is so far in the wrong it's not even funny. And Holdo...idiot. Even with Poe demoted, he's still senior pilot. If she would of just told him the plan. He'd of said "yes ma'am" and would of made sure the crew was kept in line and NOT mutinied.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Women have to slap men in order to appear strong?

 

This phenomenon was found out first by Warren Farrell in the early 80s ... I read his book "Why men are the way they are" back then.

[Rebamcfan]

Sorry, Leia is so far in the wrong it's not even funny. And Holdo...idiot. Even with Poe demoted, he's still senior pilot. If she would of just told him the plan. He'd of said "yes ma'am" and would of made sure the crew was kept in line and NOT mutinied.

 

I've been thinking about Holdo, and I could see one reason why she wouldn't tell anyone her plans, even if she's the senior officer. Considering that the First Order had infiltrated to New Republic's political arenas, I think Holdo had reason to not to share them in case of spy/leak within the Resistance fleet.

[TalonVII]

I've been thinking about Holdo, and I could see one reason why she wouldn't tell anyone her plans, even if she's the senior officer. Considering that the First Order had infiltrated to New Republic's political arenas, I think Holdo had reason to not to share them in case of spy/leak within the Resistance fleet.

 

There's not telling the general crew, then there's not telling the senior staff. And if you think you've been infiltrated that high up, you've got a lot bigger problems. And I don't think the guy who just risked his own neck to get everyone off the planet and stop the dreadnought from firing on the fleet and very likely destroying it is a security risk.

 

Oh and this is just incase anyone thinks I'm being sexist, I'd of said the same thing I'd Poe was a woman.

[AlienEyeTX]

There's not telling the general crew, then there's not telling the senior staff. And if you think you've been infiltrated that high up, you've got a lot bigger problems. And I don't think the guy who just risked his own neck to get everyone off the planet and stop the dreadnought from firing on the fleet and very likely destroying it is a security risk.

 

Oh and this is just incase anyone thinks I'm being sexist, I'd of said the same thing I'd Poe was a woman.

 

Poe is only a Captain at that point. Hardly a very high ranking officer. He had already shown insubordination and a lack of willingness to follow orders. All he had to do was follow orders and everything would have been ok! It was not his place to be questioning a Vice Admiral.

[annabethchase]

Poe is only a Captain at that point. Hardly a very high ranking officer. He had already shown insubordination and a lack of willingness to follow orders. All he had to do was follow orders and everything would have been ok! It was not his place to be questioning a Vice Admiral.

 

During the Leia coma briefing, Poe's reaction tells me he honestly thought he was still the highest ranking member on the ship.

 

Pretty sure on the Raddus it was Leia -> Ackbar -> Poe in the chain of command, but he did forget about the other 2 ship's ranking officer.

Edited January 21, 2018 by annabethchase

[TalonVII]

Poe is only a Captain at that point. Hardly a very high ranking officer. He had already shown insubordination and a lack of willingness to follow orders. All he had to do was follow orders and everything would have been ok! It was not his place to be questioning a Vice Admiral.

 

He's still for all intents the CAG. If you don't know what that means Commander Air Group. Meaning out in the field, he calls the shots for all the fighter squadrons. Or if any of the senior ranking people want the fighters to do something, they tell Poe, then Poe relays what fighters do what based off the situation.

 

Example, what Lando is during Return of the Jedi. That's what Poe does, even demoted to Captain.

 

That's pretty up there in the food chain. He's not a dumb grunt.

[AlienEyeTX]

He's still for all intents the CAG. If you don't know what that means Commander Air Group. Meaning out in the field, he calls the shots for all the fighter squadrons. Or if any of the senior ranking people want the fighters to do something, they tell Poe, then Poe relays what fighters do what based off the situation.

 

Example, what Lando is during Return of the Jedi. That's what Poe does, even demoted to Captain.

 

That's pretty up there in the food chain. He's not a dumb grunt.

 

Was he out in the field? Or was he, like everyone else, instructed to report to his station and await further orders?

 

Why is this so complicated for you? His job is to follow orders. Period.

[jarjarloves]

He's still for all intents the CAG. If you don't know what that means Commander Air Group. Meaning out in the field, he calls the shots for all the fighter squadrons. Or if any of the senior ranking people want the fighters to do something, they tell Poe, then Poe relays what fighters do what based off the situation.

 

Example, what Lando is during Return of the Jedi. That's what Poe does, even demoted to Captain.

 

That's pretty up there in the food chain. He's not a dumb grunt.

 

He is but he still doesn't need to know what is going on at that point. He wouldn't need to know until they were ready to launch the ships, even then since there are no more fighters left only transports there is really no need to involve him.

 

Meaning if Poe hadn't attacked, there was no way the Raddish escapes or survives. And if the dreadnought hadn't taken out the Raddish, other two ships would of never survived long enough to jump.

 

So that point is moot. Had Poe not done his job, there would of been no fleet to argue over, or the ships would of been forced to jump before the evacuation was done, or sustain heavy damage and a lot more casualties then what Poe lost.

 

They would have survived the jump howver they might have been destroyed once the FO followed them.

 

However the Rebels had no idea they FO could track them so Poe did the right thing by accident.

[TalonVII]

He is but he still doesn't need to know what is going on at that point. He wouldn't need to know until they were ready to launch the ships, even then since there are no more fighters left only transports there is really no need to involve him.

 

 

 

They would have survived the jump howver they might have been destroyed once the FO followed them.

 

However the Rebels had no idea they FO could track them so Poe did the right thing by accident.

 

At the time he was slapped the fighters hadn't been destroyed yet.

[jarjarloves]

At the time he was slapped the fighters hadn't been destroyed yet.

 

yeah and? Holdo wasn't in command then either. Leia was still around it wasn't until after that attack when all the fighters were destroyed and Holdo was put in command.

[DarthDymond]

I've been thinking about Holdo, and I could see one reason why she wouldn't tell anyone her plans, even if she's the senior officer. Considering that the First Order had infiltrated to New Republic's political arenas, I think Holdo had reason to not to share them in case of spy/leak within the Resistance fleet.

It's been a couple weeks since I've seen the movie, but my impression on my second watch was a bit simpler: Holdo and co. didn't have a plan yet during the first conversation -- they had just been thrust into that situation and were trying to figure out what to do, but didn't want it getting around that they didn't know. After that, it was just that Poe had ticked her off to the point she didn't want to deal with him.

 

By the time they had a plan and were starting to prep the transports, during the second conversation, she actually looked like she was ready to tell him when he called her a "coward" which just pissed her off so she was no longer inclined to tell him anything. Finally, during the third conversation he barged in with demands followed by outright mutiny.

Edited January 22, 2018 by DarthDymond

[TalonVII]

yeah and? Holdo wasn't in command then either. Leia was still around it wasn't until after that attack when all the fighters were destroyed and Holdo was put in command.

 

The point still remains. Poe was still senior leadership demotion or not. And back to the point of the reason of him being slapped. It would of been one thing if the evac waa done and all ships were about to jump. This was NOT the case.

 

Hell when the DN fires and destroys the rebel base on the ground, the last shuttle had literally gotten off the ground and had just barely cleared the blast radius. Had Poe not gone out there, those people would of been DEAD. No it's, and, or butts. And furthermore Poe bought TIME to complete that evac. IMHO he saved a hell of a lot more people than he lost

 

What he did WAS NOT RECKLESS. What he did saved the people still evacuating the ground base and probably both smaller frigates so all 3 ships could do the first jump.

 

If you say otherwise, you simply did not pay attention to the flow of the battle and how close the DN came to killing all the people on the ground, then the Raddish before the past bomber dropped the payload and took it out.

 

I mean did you all SLEEP through that scene? Did you all forget the evacuation of the ground base wasn't even done yet when that Fleet jumped in?

[AlienEyeTX]

The point still remains. Poe was still senior leadership demotion or not. And back to the point of the reason of him being slapped. It would of been one thing if the evac waa done and all ships were about to jump. This was NOT the case.

 

Hell when the DN fires and destroys the rebel base on the ground, the last shuttle had literally gotten off the ground and had just barely cleared the blast radius. Had Poe not gone out there, those people would of been DEAD. No it's, and, or butts. And furthermore Poe bought TIME to complete that evac. IMHO he saved a hell of a lot more people than he lost

 

What he did WAS NOT RECKLESS. What he did saved the people still evacuating the ground base and probably both smaller frigates so all 3 ships could do the first jump.

 

If you say otherwise, you simply did not pay attention to the flow of the battle and how close the DN came to killing all the people on the ground, then the Raddish before the past bomber dropped the payload and took it out.

 

I mean did you all SLEEP through that scene? Did you all forget the evacuation of the ground base wasn't even done yet when that Fleet jumped in?

 

You're missing something. Poe being out there was not the problem. Yes, that was his mission. He was stalling for time while the evacuation took place. First he does it on the radio and then he does it by attacking the cannons. Those actions allowed the evacuation to be completed.

 

The issue is that Poe then decides that they need to take out the dreadnaught. He is ordered back to the fleet and disobeys that order. He needlessly gets all of the bombers wiped-out. He delayed the retreat, which is the issue. They didn't know they would be tracked, so it made no sense, at the time, to keep up the assault on the dreadnaught.

 

Being out wasn't the problem. Staying out was the problem.

[TalonVII]

You're missing something. Poe being out there was not the problem. Yes, that was his mission. He was stalling for time while the evacuation took place. First he does it on the radio and then he does it by attacking the cannons. Those actions allowed the evacuation to be completed.

 

The issue is that Poe then decides that they need to take out the dreadnaught. He is ordered back to the fleet and disobeys that order. He needlessly gets all of the bombers wiped-out. He delayed the retreat, which is the issue. They didn't know they would be tracked, so it made no sense, at the time, to keep up the assault on the dreadnaught.

 

Being out wasn't the problem. Staying out was the problem.

 

Only flaw there is that Poe never took out the heavy guns. He took out the point defense cannons to clear a path for the bombers. It was his plan from the GET GO to take out the DN. And literally tye Raddish and other ships had he retreated and not taken out the DN, it would of opened up on the fleet before they could jump exposing the fleet to serious harm.

 

60 people or possibly a few thousand? Easy choice there. I'd of made the same call.

[AlienEyeTX]

Only flaw there is that Poe never took out the heavy guns. He took out the point defense cannons to clear a path for the bombers. It was his plan from the GET GO to take out the DN. And literally tye Raddish and other ships had he retreated and not taken out the DN, it would of opened up on the fleet before they could jump exposing the fleet to serious harm.

 

60 people or possibly a few thousand? Easy choice there. I'd of made the same call.

 

Why do you think the fleet couldn't jump in time? They were already all there and ready to go. Poe was the reason that they weren't ready to jump.