Star Wars: The ProTorp Wars

[Verain]

the huge Christmas Tree of Bomber Spam Death.

 

Aw, seeker mines are just looking for a home!

[Ramalina]

Sure, if I'm up against random pilots with limited skill level or my team is the strong side I can easily rely on my experience to fly around and destroy ships with minimal effort. But against skilled pilots in the new meta, you spend far more time on the defensive than you do attacking.

 

Example 1:

Scout flies out from spawn and has a long distance to travel, lots of open area because objectives/terrain are typically a distance away from cap ships/origin. After getting within 11500m of a clarion, enemy clarion begins locking on - scout pilot must now choose to break off and retreat or commit. If scout breaks off they survive, but are forced to disengage (ie not do job). If scout commits, before blasters are even in real effective range that scout is debuffed and must desperately try to use terrain or an unexpected turn to break the firing arc before eating a torpedo. That same engine debuff has now made the ship completely vulnerable to anyone who locks in during that window.

 

Example 2:

Heavy fighting and the scout gets in unnoticed. A gunship is focusing on a target and seemingly unaware of approaching scout. Scout eliminates target or forces target to flee. Scout pilot is then engaged by nearby clarion. Having burned a lot of energy to close the gap (or maybe even the engine break), scout has limited boost left. Scout has already been debuffed and is too far from terrain to use for cover. Depending on distance the clarion is able to maintain lock and despite attempting to run the scout is destroyed, unable to get far away fast enough and unable to break lock with terrain because the projectile was fired. If scout had DF it was likely burned during the initial salvo against the gunship so it was unable to get temporary reprieve and buy a second or two to get to safety.

 

To put it in perspective - I setup my clarion originally as a "mercy" ship for fun when it was pretty clear the win was in the bag. Because of the long lock time for protorps I would have to start the lock as close to 5k range as possible as the lengthy duration was more than enough time for pilots to react. With the reduced reload and lock times, I can typically start locking around 7-8k and land the remote slice within 5k before dumping the torpedo. Now that scout pilot can burn a missile break to avoid the initial lock, but now are entirely reliant on manually breaking any lock - except now they've just flown closer to teammates and can't be sure of all the angles they're now being locked on from.

 

Another thing to keep in mind about DF - it was the best way to avoid missiles and mines in close quarters where a typical missile break would likely result in a self destruct. While not a big deal for the emp burst scouts, it made it that much harder for other loadouts

 

Scouts fight within less than 5k

Remote slicing and EMP Field can hit 5k.

Emp missle has even longer range

Scout is debuffed

Scout is destroyed as multiple torpedoes fly towards target

 

Now mind you, i've had this done both to me and done it to other pilots, some of which were very skilled.

 

Now as far as the length of time to kill a ship - when aces go head to head it can either end really quickly (ala joust) or take minutes as each pilot moves and counters. Scouts and certain gunship pilots could be extremely hard to kill by their ability to evade - missile/torpedo locks too longer and offered more room to react, and sometimes you'd even see a sea of red float across the map as they all pursued one target. That ability to evade can be practically eliminated with one engine debuff.

 

Protorps, most projectiles were just shy of useless before the changes. Despite being effective against a single bomber, multiple bombers ran circles around the lock and load times. In the old meta, I would see occasional torpedoes. Now I see them every match. Engine debuff and projectile lock becoming the new standard - while I consider it better than before, when any one weapon becomes that prevalent (like BLC in the past) there isn't a lot of balance when certain components are valued that much more frequently over others.

 

You know, in this explanation of why you don't like the Proton Torpedo buffs you've actually spent almost all of your time complaining about engine lockouts. With the greatest amount focused on a single target lockout trolling build of the T3 strike that's not that great at doing anything other than locking down a single target.

 

That build is absolutely brutal when it comes to locking down a single target, and if there's one exceptional pilot on an opposing team in an otherwise fairly pedestrian PUG v PUG match it's a good pick if you want to try to make that pilot's match an exercise in frustration.

 

 

Basically Ramalina, I think you are speaking more definitively than we know yet.

 

I'm feeling pretty confident on that count. I can't think of any games at all where in the changed meta the answer to, "do you want a good battlescout on your team," would be, "no." I might have particular preferences in terms of the build of that battlescout, but if the build is appropriate, I want it on the team. I'd probably even be happy to have two. Mobility, CD fueled burst, and evasion stacking in the face of Railguns (and maybe even HLCs now), are valuable assets that Battlescouts bring better than any other ship can.

 

If you ask me, "are those battlescout pilots going to have a fun and easy time of it," or, "well if two battlescouts are good, then 4 must be better, right," then I'm really not at all confident of positive answers.

 

 

There's an aspect apart from balance here. Mechanically I'm fairly sure that bombers and battlescouts are both strong enough in the new meta that teams that discard them are at a disadvantage more often than not. In terms of feel of play though, suppose that battlescout and bomber slots are limited in a match and your team decides to /roll to decide who gets which ships. Are the people flying battlescouts or bombers considered to be winners (yay, we got powerful ships), or are they considered to be losers (aww, I know we needed these roles but I hate flying this class)?

 

A mechanically strong class that turns off players has design problems even if it doesn't have balance problems.

 

On that front I do have mild-moderate concern for battlescouts and bombers. They can still do great stuff for a team, but they don't feel great while doing it nearly as much as they used to. The new-shininess of strikes hasn't worn off yet for me (not sure if it ever will), so it's sort of hard to judge fairly, but I do generally feel that for X level of performance the Battlescout and Bombers feel less fun than they used to, and less fun than getting to an equivalent level of X on another class. The thing is that X can still be at impressive levels, which sort of enhances the suspicion that I might be getting shortchanged on fun with those classes.

[SeCKSEgai]

@Ram

 

I am a scout pilot, and that's why I'm pretty firm on my stance. The reason my remote slicing clarion is able to be so effective is because its a scout pilot behind it. The first night of the changes I flew my scout up against drak and co and the engine buffs were far too frequent to fly effectively. Either you're spending most of your time on the defensive or you're engaging, getting debuffed and some target finishes you off from long range.

 

I've had to minimize my "battle scout" usage for very specifc use - killing on sats for my blc setup, killing whatever on quad/pods when team is significantly stronger than opposing side and a few more deaths isn't a liability.

 

Tensor scout can actually be effective beyond the tensor so I don't always self destruct after popping it.

 

Emp scout... now that's a fun one. If any scout besides the tensor can do their job, its that one since it's primary goal is delivering that emp.

 

However, what it all boils down to is that there is plenty of open area one has to cross in order to do their "job". With protons in heavy rotation, all it takes is one proton torpedo to start the chain. First proton fires, scout must engine break - said pilot must now wait for engine break cd or eat another torpedo from another enemy. If they're debuffed by anything, they're practically guaranteed to eat a torpedo and die before ever reaching their objective.

 

Lastly - as far as the single target focus is concerned - why would that matter - a pike can essentially do the same thing a clarion does except it actually has to lock on with an additional projectile. If pike locks and fires, target must break or eat it. If projectile was emp missle, their engine break is gone and they ate direct hull damage. Once engine break is gone they're eating emps/protons till death.

 

When you kill a ship, its a single target.... a gunship always hit one target at a time short of the ion aoe, a scout could swap targets but harassing and not killing often led to deadly reprisal. When you kill a ship, you're focused on it that duration.

 

Fighting multiple targets used to be the battlescout's area of domination - that's gone now that projectiles took over because you can lock on from farther away - not only does that make it easier to keep target in firing arc, but also makes it a lot harder for them to escape the range.

Edited October 25, 2017 by SeCKSEgai

[Dixarcs]

raiyne did u not watch the video???? just because u cant do good with the scout doesnt mean its a bad ship. maybe this is an example of user error not ship nerf. i bet you cant win with a T2 GS either but its still a fine ship TBH. there is a cornicopia of videos available for u to learn from TBQH Edited October 26, 2017 by Dixarcs

[SeCKSEgai]

raiyne did u not watch the video???? just because u cant do good with the scout doesnt mean its a bad ship. maybe this is an example of user error not ship nerf. i bet you cant win with a T2 GS either but its still a fine ship TBH. there is a cornicopia of videos available for u to learn from TBQH

 

Yes yes, I'm a horrible pilot who can't kill anyone and Krix got wrecked by a clarion before the buffs yadda yadda.

 

Now that I've had two months to experience the cxp grind (with two double cxp weeks) I'm pretty sure I'll be leaving yet again since there's barely any point unsubbed.

 

But please consider your dwindling populace before you insult the few that are left - it may be in jest but I was seeing the q fade noticeably in just the two months I've been here.

[SeCKSEgai]

I wanted to revisit this one more time.

 

 

Now, most of my matches, the experience has been from mostly lopsided matches. I've been on both the really strong side, and really weak side. The reality is that's the state of most matches - lopsided.

 

With that said, I did have a few matches where there were both srw and drak n co in the mix - and my experience in those matches was noticeably different from the usual day to day.

 

In the rare chance that a match is fairly close to even in strength - I did get a sense of balance. Maybe it was the fact I didn't have at least 3 people trying to kill me all the time (because there were threats everywhere you looked). But in a relatively even match, I did feel things were a lot more balanced.

 

Now when the skill gap is less of a factor, I did see a lot more reason for particular ship choices. Having a balanced comp was that much more beneficial - particularly in the sense that one could not rely on missile attacks alone with aces all over and sats in contention.

 

With the unannounced moving of the west coast server I have noticed issues arising, particularly with locks and even more so in breaking them manually. Latency matters when fractions of a second count.

 

Initially, I thought the focus on projectiles would make things easier on the new people vs the typical gunship walls and such. But, improve the tools and you improve the performance of the folks who know how to use them better. While I feel its still better than eating railguns galore - that locking sound is probably going to reach the annoyance level of ion sooner or later for most people.

 

We waited years to finally see some gsf changes, and while not perfect it's at least taken some of the staleness out of the gameplay. The component bug still persists even after this major overhaul so I'm doubtful there will be any fine tuning so pilots are going to have to adapt or not bother.

 

All I ask is that people not blindly accept these new changes as amazing and take note that there are still drawbacks. It's easy to look at things positively when you're almost exclusively on the strong team - to really get perspective you've got to also spend time in the muck getting beat up on the weakside a ton to really evaluate just how much the adjustments have changed the dynamic.

[RickDagles]

All I ask is that people not blindly accept these new changes as amazing and take note that there are still drawbacks. It's easy to look at things positively when you're almost exclusively on the strong team - to really get perspective you've got to also spend time in the muck getting beat up on the weakside a ton to really evaluate just how much the adjustments have changed the dynamic.

 

 

This is a good point and I think people lose sight of this a lot. When you're on the good team, every ship and build feels strong. The only way to tell if a ship/build is good is if it works under adversity. But your recent comment about wrecking Krixarcs with a Clarion suggests that you lose sight of this concept sometimes too. That doesn't sound like a realistic thing unless your team was a completely overwhelming force. If you said you wrecked him with a Flashfire or Quarrel then I would be more inclined to believe it.

 

 

Contrary to what you may think, I still solo queue a lot. I know what you mean about protons changing the dynamic. In Domination, protons hardly bother me at all because you can almost always use the satellite for LoS. Retro thrusters may actually be better than pdive now since you can break a missile and get back to LoS more quickly than with pdive. Same thing goes for Kuat Mesas TDM. The doorways offer great LoS opportunities. And now that GS+bomberball is less common, that ship sometimes feels stronger than ever in that map. I agree that Lost Gunshipyards is a huge proton dangerzone, but I think the Starguard with HLC, clusters, retro, and hydospanner does really well there. I can usually get a few kills before dying to hull attrition from protons and slug railguns. I think protorps are a bit overrated. I use them on my Pike but I find I often kill stuff faster and more reliably with just HLC + EMP missile or HLC + clusters. I mostly just use the protorps when I see that an enemy has recently used his engine ability. But it's certainly not the core of my attack plan like it seems to be with some pilots. And that's why I prefer flying Starguard. I get a lot more value from the reto thrusters than I do from snagging someone with a proton once in awhile. The main reason I would choose the Pike is actually for the increased mobility which allows me to grab damage overcharges more easily.

 

 

TL;DR I do think protorps could be tuned down a bit, but I hardly think it's game breaking. They are mostly just OP in one map. Heavy Laser Cannons with Strikefighter F1 damage is a lot more powerful in general.

Edited October 28, 2017 by RickDagles

[SeCKSEgai]

This is a good point and I think people lose sight of this a lot. When you're on the good team, every ship and build feels strong. The only way to tell if a ship/build is good is if it works under adversity. But your recent comment about wrecking Krixarcs with a Clarion suggests that you lose sight of this concept sometimes too. That doesn't sound like a realistic thing unless your team was a completely overwhelming force. If you said you wrecked him with a Flashfire or Quarrel then I would be more inclined to believe it.

.

 

I was responding facetiously to dixarcs suggesting that I can't kill in my primary ship and was referencing the 1v1 match krix had with one of srw which I thought was you - I can't remember it was a while back. I actually haven't seen krix in a match for some time.

 

But I'm aware that there are folks like yourself that still solo queue repping the srw tag like you, lompi, greetz.

 

I've definitely noticed a lot of the more skilled pilots adapting, like seeing repair on strikes to help prevent death from the protorp dot. But I've also recognized that a lot of the lesser skilled pilots lack the experience and understanding to cope with the new projectile race. I would say the thing that bugs me the most is how much it forces defensive play in even the simplest of engagements. There are times where I'll use a lock not for damage but simply to force someone off or away, like pushing folks off a sat.

 

And I'd definitely agree, that even the clarion/imperium remote slicing/torpedo setup is still limited in it's killing potential given the delays - but at the same time you can utilize it to net kills with a fire and forget mindset allowing one to avoid deadly confrontations while still delivering a killing blow.

 

I still think the coolest thing I've seen was multiple emp scouts bursting near simultaneously, albeit that was an organized group. Anything that wasn't killed by the shield-bypassing damage was engine-debuffed and cleaned up by the teammates.

 

But, just like in the old system - the variance in team strength is still the ultimate factor. I've been bored to tears when placed against teams that could never muster enough strength and frustrated when placed on those teams that simply had no chance.

[RickDagles]

I was responding facetiously to dixarcs suggesting that I can't kill in my primary ship and was referencing the 1v1 match krix had with one of srw which I thought was you - I can't remember it was a while back. I actually haven't seen krix in a match for some time.

 

Ah sorry I missed that joke! yea it was me. I was flying a charged plated Pike with HLC, clusters, concussions, and 20% turning. Krix was running BLC with shield pen and clusters, which pretty much meant nightmare mode for him.

 

 

But I've also recognized that a lot of the lesser skilled pilots lack the experience and understanding to cope with the new projectile race. I would say the thing that bugs me the most is how much it forces defensive play in even the simplest of engagements. There are times where I'll use a lock not for damage but simply to force someone off or away, like pushing folks off a sat.

 

Fair enough, but I think slug railgun stacking accomplished the same thing in the past. You didn't get the annoying warning, but the result was similar. And IMO railgun stacking is worse because there's really no way to avoid being hit without stacking huge amounts of evasion. Vs protons you can guarantee not being hit by being really smart with LoS and your missile break(s). Using your missile break effectively 100% stops multiple simultaneous proton locks, whereas using evasion only partially prevents slug railgun hits. If you get a bad roll of the dice, you still lose.

 

I agree that the TDM game would be better if defensive play (railgun, proton, bomber nest) was not favored. The only problem arises when you try to balance those components for domination. I think they're pretty balanced in that mode already.

 

 

And I'd definitely agree, that even the clarion/imperium remote slicing/torpedo setup is still limited in it's killing potential given the delays - but at the same time you can utilize it to net kills with a fire and forget mindset allowing one to avoid deadly confrontations while still delivering a killing blow.

 

So you're partly saying that you dislike how some proton builds have lowered the skill floor a bit? I'd agree with that, but again I think the skill floor for railgun stacking was already quite low, especially on lost shipyards. Killing while avoiding deadly confrontations is an accurate description for both protons and railguns. The game is currently better than it was before. Beta testing details aren't allowed to be discussed but let's just say that I believe a lot of work was done in many departments which may or may not include protons, and I'm pretty happy with the end result. Even if it's not perfect.

 

 

Remember that the current protons, although primarily defensive in nature, offer another solid threat against gunships. And if plan is to nerf gunships, I think that the current protons are a strong tool.

 

I still think the coolest thing I've seen was multiple emp scouts bursting near simultaneously, albeit that was an organized group. Anything that wasn't killed by the shield-bypassing damage was engine-debuffed and cleaned up by the teammates.

 

That's an interesting strategy and I think it can work with really good coordination. LC+pods or LLC+pods works pretty well against gunships, especially if each scout can suppress the accuracy of a separate gunship. Thermites may even prove to be good here. However, I think a few HLC Strikefighters is even more nasty. Especially if one has DO. 1100+ damage HLC shots are absolute murder, even on a gunship that recognizes the threat and runs away early.

 

But, just like in the old system - the variance in team strength is still the ultimate factor. I've been bored to tears when placed against teams that could never muster enough strength and frustrated when placed on those teams that simply had no chance.

 

And IMO that's the biggest drawback of GSF. You can go from solo queuing and stomping noobs all day to suddenly fighting a 4 man premade and getting 3 capped. That's why I wish people would be more receptive to organizing planned events where we try to make even teams. Our goal on the new server (Starforge) is to revist the idea of the 'Shadowlands Balancing Act' where we attempted to make evenly matched games for 2-3 hours during EST prime time. If you or anyone else is interested in participating just let us know on http://www.gsfsrw.com!

Edited November 1, 2017 by RickDagles