I am done and a little mad!

[Thruine]

You get no argument from that the Jedi philosophy is flawed. But I think the Jedi do set out to do good but they've managed to try to mark exactly the path you should take. We all heard the end justify the means which the Jedi have taken that both must be justified and do good. They just go further and dictate exactly what you have to do to the point I think many Jedi spend so much time meditating is weighting every decision they have to take tomorrow to ensure they make no missteps since one can bring destruction to all. Personally, I don't think I've ever seen the Force really that powerful that not tipping the doorman will condemn the whole city but apparently the Jedi do. I suppose this is a fallout of their history in which they didn't pay as much attention and created the Sith (or caused them to find, mate and destroy the Sith... that's rather convoluted method of inserting the Pureblood race in my opinion).

 

The Sith on the other hand as others have said above, do not care what the end is. You can care about honor or body count. Its not a concern. Just follow the code is really all that's needed... fighting for your life and murder is also require to go through the Academy. But who needs power to be honorable? Aren't they just gotten to the point they can be honorable? Or wear a dress or dance in fountains? Did they really go through their entire life with honor or is it another prize they've managed to grab? In the end, the Sith code seems completely selfish in nature.

 

Anakin for instance wanted something I would say is good, to save his wife, and the Jedi stood in the way of the method he found. What is difficult to understand is how that need is so important that he destroyed everything he had fought to gain including saving his wife. It was like a light switch. He saved the life of someone he considered a friend, Palpatine, by helping to destroy a Jedi who had stood in his way before, then becomes the servant of that saved friend. He has literally broken the chains that bound him to take on new chains for a cure. He toot his pledge in the same room he had just save Palpatine in to serve him then went straight to the temple to kill all and potential Jedi. Then off the stop the war, fight his friend and think he killed his wife. At no point did the way to save Padme ever enter his possession. It seemed he completely forgot about it until Padme showed up and tried to stop him from going further (already too far in my opinion). If the dark side is that corrupting and that destructive, isn't that a pretty good reason to fear it and ward against it the way the Jedi do. Its enough reason to round up children.

 

Still, no one can have no selfish thoughts or moments of anger. The Jedi are always doomed to fail in their efforts to control the dark side in that manner. But it can't excuse the Sith decision to not even try. I still think the fear of the Force is odd. Its not magic. No one can summon a dragon and destroy a planet but that's what both groups talk like it can. Even Obi-Wan tells Vader if he destroys him, he'll become more powerful than he can imagine. And he becomes a black and white holo. As Luke Skywalker famously said, "Huh?"

 

Its the ordinary Imperials, the non-force users, I still don't get though. We know they can leave and escape if they really wanted to. They know they'll probably be hated and untrusted. They also know at any moment some dark lord could just decide to kill them and their entire family over nothing. Just being nearby one could be a death sentence. And the serve and support them. Its like having a terrorist with a gun to your head as well as your family and friends while you try to work and live. How do you do that? What are they fighting for if their lives have so little meaning. Even if they win and destroy the Republic and every trace of anything its ever touched or said, they'd still be living exactly the same way as now. I just don't get it. One can only assume that this is one human race that has no care about its own survival which makes their fight even more pointless.

 

Btw, what happened to Dromund Kaas after the Republic did win? I think this is the first time I've heard of the planet or that there actually was a race of humans known as Imperial. I just assumed the Empire was just made of various peoples. I haven't researched that part of the history (really only a bit about Purebloods). Did someone finally pull the trigger and they killed themselves through a dark lord? Or did the Jedi actually exterminate them as they feared? One thing I like about the bounty hunter story is how often he fights against this notion he's Imperial. I could almost think he holds them in some kind of contempt. I do. It keeps me from caring what happens to these people. Even a dog backs away if you swat it. But the Imperials seeks to gain even greater chances to be killed by getting promoted.

[cagthehack]

The problem isn't just about philosophical differences... even though it's good enough to start wars in real life. The Force has an effect : the Dark Side DO corrupt things. Someone filled with the Dark Side IS doomed to become selfish, power-hungry and, ultimately, evil.

Some of the characters who uses Dark Side powers but aren't Darksiders themselves are Kyle Katarn and Jaden Korr... Katarn specifically uses a technique to SHIELD himself from the Dark Side Influence.

 

Being SIth is about doing what you want, when you want. It's about building your own legacy. You can be a cold hearted killer, or a reasonable (and ruthless) man. It's results that matter. I always said that Sith don't suffer fools. They kill them.

 

The Jedi believe that because you are able to weld the force, you are dangerous. And you must use your gifts to protect others from that danger. Regardless what the "others" are doing. Look at Belsavis, as an example.

 

Evil doesn't exclusively belong to the Sith.

[SaveTheMonkeys]

Its the ordinary Imperials, the non-force users, I still don't get though. We know they can leave and escape if they really wanted to.

 

They can leave and escape, but I doubt its easy. People escape from North Korea, too. Its dangerous and difficult, but can be done...and its an action that condemns any family left behind to prison labor camps.

 

They also know at any moment some dark lord could just decide to kill them and their entire family over nothing. Just being nearby one could be a death sentence. And the serve and support them.

 

While the Sith are above the law in most respects, I doubt any would go door-to-door, looking for families to murder. Unstable, unreliable Sith get taken out. The Dark Council might not care about the individual fates of its citizens, but its going to have a problem with someone casually depopulating a city. If you're working for a sith and mess up, you might be killed. If you do your job and avoid drawing attention, you'll probably be ignored.

 

Its like having a terrorist with a gun to your head as well as your family and friends while you try to work and live. How do you do that? What are they fighting for if their lives have so little meaning.

 

How do you not? If the alternative is the terrorist murdering your friends and family, you'll do what you have to. This is exactly how most people under a dictatorship in the real world behave - They know that if they do the wrong thing, it could mean torture, imprisonment or death. So they avoid doing the wrong thing and just try to survive.

 

Even if they win and destroy the Republic and every trace of anything its ever touched or said, they'd still be living exactly the same way as now. I just don't get it. One can only assume that this is one human race that has no care about its own survival which makes their fight even more pointless.

 

I think you have that backwards. Most in the Empire aren't fighting the republic over idealism. Only the most ardent patriots are going to think about "destroying" the republic, the rest are fighting because they believe (rightly or wrongly) that the Republic will wipe them out if they don't - they care very much about their own survival.

[Lord_Rezo]

Oh boy... this going to be long but also fun :3... love to debate with people which are open to debate!

 

I've had this debate on these very forums before - which side is worse, are the sith really evil, etc.

Then as now, it boils down to "Yeah, but slavery..."

But, who has the better code and which side the larger catalog of grievances isn't something I find very interesting. What is interesting to me is exploring both points of view from within.

 

Well, the whole star wars universe revolts in the Dark vs Light, Jedi vs Sith, the conflict is simplified in the movies and expanded in well... the expanded universe xD. The movies, the whole universe makes you take a side, you cannot be a Sith in the Jedi world and you cannot be a Jedi in the Sith world. Both sides will exterminate each other... but are they in control of their actions?

It is said that originally the force was studied by both sides as one single side... yet when some people tried to study the force deeper and attained greater strength, some people said they were "deviating" from a path and that schism caused the first division between "light and dark", there isnt much explored about it, but the thing we know is that it just started as a theological debate (like the Christianity vs Orthodoxy).

Eventually, the "Light side" won and banished the students of the "Dark side" which never forgot this and marked themselves the objective of revenge, one can argue if this is evil or it is just... Yuthura Ban says on Kotor I that "sometimes anger and hatred are deserved and right" and this phrase is actually correct, from an outside of starwars point of view... an action will always cause a reaction, usually opposed and several times greater.

The Jedi banished their "fallen brothers" instead of reaching a middle ground and this in return created the Sith, a group of force users devoted to get revenge on the Jedi.

 

 

The point of view I was trying to illustrate was that of a fresh acolyte, embarking on the journey to be Sith. They would realize very quickly that regardless of their own sense of honor and moral compass, to show weakness is to risk death. But being strong and powerful will also invite challenge...

 

This part, this academy in Korriban, this is a reaction to the original Hyperspace war and everything that has happened after it, Jedi Master Gnost Durall studies it and he says that how the galaxy story could have changed if they had took different steps... but would have it changed?

Several Jedi after the Sith went into exile have fallen into the "dark side", Revan and Malak, Uliq Qel Droma and Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Sion and Nihilus, why did it happen?

Perhaps... the Jedi code needed to evolve... i can agree the Sith code and teacheds arent perfect, but they are a step further on the force and that is the reason why so many Jedi keep falling into the dark side while almost no Sith go back to the Jedi.

 

To my mind, anyone who makes it through their trials and graduates the academy is going to be emotionally damaged (from a modern psychological POV). If you've had to kill to survive the first step on the road, then murder, torture etc may well cease being moral quandaries and simply become the price of continued survival.

 

I'm not trying to justify any of it as a player, mind you.

 

Mmm... i can agree on the part where the Sith teachings might damage a person emotionally, but thats up to debate, because while Sith are teached to kill someone, it is not done in an "oppressive" way, rather in a survival way. Sith are teached that they are going to be hunted, peace is a lie, there is only passion, if someone passion and objective is to surpass you, they will not adhere to any peaceful way, they will simply kill you and take what is yours. That is what true freedom gives, the morality of "treat your neighbour nice and he will treat you nice" that we have in real life is not freedom at all, because we are all slaves to the "collective needs" and we may be purged if the collective deems it necessary.

 

To answer to Lord_Rezo, I used the exemple of Darth Caedus not to illustrate the Sith, but to point out the corruption of the Dark Side. And I firmly believe makes people at least selfish. This exemple, and the exemple of the majority of fallen jedis as you said yourself, illustrate how someone educated with a peaceful philosophy turns into a complete monster. I don't think being a Sith makes you de facto evil, but their philosophy coupled with the Dark Side is almost sure to turn anyone into a complete monster, a selfish, power hungry monster... The Siths promote passion in their code and anger is a powerful passion. How with such a philosophy and while wielding such a corrupting force, can one avoid turning evil ?

 

No, the Sith philosophy and teachings behind it dont turn you into a monster. Its your own nature what makes you a monster, if you had unlimited power at your command... you would keep using it more, and more, and more and then the "devil question" will keep showing up... kill one person to save a thousand? kill thousands to save a person which in return would save a million?

The main issue with the "dark side" its not its techings, its the own nature of the person. Your goal may be as noble as to save the galaxy, but what if you had to kill a quarter of the galaxy to keep the rest safe? Majority would consider you evil, but you would be doing the necessary to save the people (like Revan ritual in Yavin IV).

The more power you achieve, the greater your goals would be and when you reach the highest power you could achieve... your goals would be so high that the surroundings of you would be less than ants (Valkorion anyone? Nihilus?) your goals would not be comprehended by mere mortals, you would have achieved godhood and your doing should not be questioned for you can bring end to the pain, to the problems and people would worship you for it (again Valkorion anyone?).

Jedi teachings force you to not develop your connection to the force, it teaches you to not do anything in order to not evolve and not become something uncontrollable, that is why Jedi with noble goals keep falling into the Sith ways in order to achieve more and more power.

 

It should be noted however that not every sith is a saint, Palpatine for example is a twisted psychopath, but if you give freedom to everybody, psychopaths are more likely to be seen, and then people wouldnt want freedom because they might die.

 

I always liked Kreia's philosophy but she is kind of an anomaly. Perhaps the Jedi code is flawed, but it exists for a reason : use the Force for the greater good and avoid the Dark Side at all cost, because it will corrupt you. The Sith code isn't an evolution of the Jedi Code, it is an opposition and, as such, is as much flawed. A Sith would argue that the Jedi are weak, because they refuse to accept all the aspects of the Force out of fear. But a Jedi would probably say that it is only reasonable to stay away from something that poison your mind and body.

 

Kreia wasnt sith or jedi, she was beyond that, she made her own code and her own teachings, when she is teaching the jedi exile, she says she isnt teaching her to be jedi or sith, rather to be a human person. Do not be evil, do not be good, morality is up for debate in her philosophy and thats why she is such an amazing character, because she explores the deep of our own humanity in order to teach us that neither Sith are wrong or Jedi are right... but people like simplicity... so its rather easy to apply her the title of "sith" and just kill her.

 

About the Sith Code... it IS an evolution, because its different, it may not be perfect, it may be the opposite, but its an evolution because the Jedi code was the origin of the force-philosophy as we know.

And about the Jedi/Sith example... the Jedi dont reject the force becaues it "poisons", rather they feel they are the will of the force, whatever they do, is the force wishes and as such they are not to be questioned, everything they do is good (like when Mace Windu tries to kill Palpatine even despite knowing it is wrong?). Thats another reason the Sith despise the Jedi, most Sith use the force as a tool, as a vessel of their own needs while the Jedi sees that an abomination and think that Sith are "enslaving the force"... while the truth is the force has its own will and it is guiding both Sith and Jedi into conflict to evolve.

Neither Sith or Jedi belive in chance, destiny exists and it is made up by the force and that is why Kreia wanted to end the force... because all deaths, all conflicts, all killing and mass murder in the galaxy that involved Jedi and Sith was just the work of an unseen-twisted-entity.

[SaveTheMonkeys]

It is said that originally the force was studied by both sides as one single side... yet when some people tried to study the force deeper and attained greater strength, some people said they were "deviating" from a path and that schism caused the first division between "light and dark", there isnt much explored about it, but the thing we know is that it just started as a theological debate (like the Christianity vs Orthodoxy).

 

I really like the JC story on Tython, discovering some of that early schism. However, I think Light and Dark are definitely different things. Two sides of the same coin, certainly (with an edge between them), but still distinct from each other.

 

Several Jedi after the Sith went into exile have fallen into the "dark side", Revan and Malak, Uliq Qel Droma and Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Sion and Nihilus, why did it happen?

 

In some cases, the falls in question seem to be a result of Jedi wanting to explore beyond the orthodoxy of the Jedi, and having no one to guide them in that journey. On top of that, in all cases that I know of, the ones who fall are prideful young men who are certain their masters are wrong. They leave the order, fall spectacularly and the masters go "I told you so." They become a cautionary tale for the next generation of Jedi, and more of a barrier to exploring beyond the orthodox teachings. If experience teaches you that exposure to the dark side is a bad idea, the masters are going to be understandably hardline about it. You see it in-game with the Jedi council's caution regarding the Voss - at the end of the JC storyline, when your Mystic ally suggests sending padawans to Voss, the council's response is "we will....discuss it...(we're trying to be polite, but NO)" The Voss don't understand the reluctance, but from the Jedi perspective, its like having a wild animal in a cage that's bites every time someone lets it out to pet it.

 

Perhaps... the Jedi code needed to evolve... i can agree the Sith code and teacheds arent perfect, but they are a step further on the force and that is the reason why so many Jedi keep falling into the dark side while almost no Sith go back to the Jedi.

 

The Sith code strikes me more as a reactionary over-the-top response to the schism with the Jedi. Clearly, there is emotion, but there is also peace. Both codes are too extreme.

 

It's pretty classic star wars that falling is easy, redemption is hard. That's why there's more of the former and less of the latter IMO.

 

Mmm... i can agree on the part where the Sith teachings might damage a person emotionally, but thats up to debate, because while Sith are teached to kill someone, it is not done in an "oppressive" way, rather in a survival way.

 

Which is why I clarified it as 'from a modern psychological point of view"

 

It's not so much the Sith doctrine that causes the damage, but the environment and mentality that develops around it. Consider real world examples of soldiers returning from combat where they've had to fight to survive. Not all of them want to share, but the ones that do talk about how difficult it is to re-adjust to civilian life, and in many cases they have long-term psychological problems - not because they've engaged in evil actions, but simply because they've been in that kill-or-be-killed state of mind for so long.

[Kuvox]

I think we need to understand that the Sith and the Sith Empire in this non-canon story are not at all the same as what George Lucas envisioned. It's well-known that he modeled the Galactic Empire after Nazi Germany. The Sith Empire is not Nazi Germany in this story. If they were, few of us would want to play them (and thank goodness for that).

 

And, in one of the making of DVDs Lucas pretty much defines the dark side and how awful it is and how miserable it makes one feel (

). There's none of this "peace is a lie," "my chains are broken" stuff. In Lucas' mind Sith are miserable and do terrible things. And, as the creator of Star Wars, it's pretty hard to argue that he's wrong (except on maybe who shot first) . Edited August 3, 2017 by Kuvox

[ZionHalcyon]

I think we need to understand that the Sith and the Sith Empire in this non-canon story are not at all the same as what George Lucas envisioned. It's well-known that he modeled the Galactic Empire after Nazi Germany. The Sith Empire is not Nazi Germany in this story. If they were, few of us would want to play them (and thank goodness for that).

 

And, in one of the making of DVDs Lucas pretty much defines the dark side and how awful it is and how miserable it makes one feel (

). There's none of this "peace is a lie," "my chains are broken" stuff. In Lucas' mind Sith are miserable and do terrible things. And, as the creator of Star Wars, it's pretty hard to argue that he's wrong (except on maybe who shot first) .

 

 

Truth is, you are pretty much right. But you run into the issue of people in BioWare games wanting to explore stories, wanting a chance to play the "bad" guy, or reform it from within.

 

And given this game is firmly in the "legends" category, it really has the creative freedom to do whatever. And I think giving layers and dimensions to the Sith Empire was a smart choice.

 

Frankly, if given the choice between Jedi and Sith, I'd go Sith, because Sith are allowed the freedom to have their own individual interpretations of the Sith code, rather than one rigid way that must be adhered to like the Jedi (which is almost cult-like).

 

Some take the Sith code as a manifesto to be a power-crazed loon.

 

Me?

 

Peace is a lie, there is only Passion.

Though Passion I gain Strength.

Through Strength I gain Power.

Through Power, I gain Victory.

Through Victory, my chains are broken,

The Force shall set me free.

 

If I were interpreting that, I'd see it like this:

 

Peace is a lie, there is only Passion.

 

As nice as the idea of world or universal peace is, believing it possible is how one lies to one's self, because so long as there are people with their individual passions, there will never be peace, because those passions will clash with others who have a contradicting passion. Thus to try for a universal peace is a fools errand - there is only what one's passion is in life, and a person should find what they are passionate about and pursue it.

 

Though Passion I gain Strength.

 

A person who is passionate about something will be sustained and driven by their passion, giving them strength to pursue that which they are passionate about.

 

Through Strength I gain Power.

 

Those who pursue their passions with strength will often attract followers - those who will become attracted to your story and become supporters of yours. In other words, you end up developing a power base that wants to help you achieve your goals.

 

Through Power, I gain Victory.

 

Once you have that support behind you, you have the momentum to achieve those passions and goals that otherwise may have been out of reach. Victory.

 

Through Victory, my chains are broken,

 

A person who achieves their dreams feel like nothing is impossible for them - they are unchained from their own negative emotions, and there is no holding them back.

 

The Force shall set me free.

 

Most overlook this - but it appears in this line that the Force has a WILL, and is alive. Makes sense since the Living Force that Qui Gon Jinn believed in also believed in the same thing. Despite it being at odds with many in game sith, this part of the code almost acknowledges that Faith in the Force sets one free from their chains.

 

 

So yeah - between the two, I'd be Sith. And I'd wager most successful people in life would more readily identify with the Sith vs the cult-like Jedi.

[SaveTheMonkeys]

I think we need to understand that the Sith and the Sith Empire in this non-canon story are not at all the same as what George Lucas envisioned. It's well-known that he modeled the Galactic Empire after Nazi Germany. The Sith Empire is not Nazi Germany in this story. If they were, few of us would want to play them (and thank goodness for that).

 

And, in one of the making of DVDs Lucas pretty much defines the dark side and how awful it is and how miserable it makes one feel (

). There's none of this "peace is a lie," "my chains are broken" stuff. In Lucas' mind Sith are miserable and do terrible things. And, as the creator of Star Wars, it's pretty hard to argue that he's wrong (except on maybe who shot first) .

 

I could argue that he's wrong, but that would take us into a debate over whether an artist has authority over the meaning of their art. I have massive respect for Lucas for creating this thing that I love, but I don't think he really understood it, or at least what it became.

[ZionHalcyon]

I could argue that he's wrong, but that would take us into a debate over whether an artist has authority over the meaning of their art. I have massive respect for Lucas for creating this thing that I love, but I don't think he really understood it, or at least what it became.

 

You'll never win against whether an artist has authority over his art - they always do.

 

However, one angle you can take that COULD work against Lucas, is that he isn't the true artist behind the original art - http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/the-secret-weapon-behind-star-wars/news-story/75eb078a8b14d93fce23b06e98805ffb

 

His ex wife seems to have been behind many of the most influential decisions of the original trilogy - and it could explain why the prequels felt a bit off. She reigned him in.

[cagthehack]

You'll never win against whether an artist has authority over his art - they always do.

 

However, one angle you can take that COULD work against Lucas, is that he isn't the true artist behind the original art - http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/the-secret-weapon-behind-star-wars/news-story/75eb078a8b14d93fce23b06e98805ffb

 

His ex wife seems to have been behind many of the most influential decisions of the original trilogy - and it could explain why the prequels felt a bit off. She reigned him in.

 

And then there is Joseph Campbell. Lucas discuss in length the influence his book, The Hero with a Thousand Faces had over his ideas. Besides realizing that religions have shared ideas (or classical motifs), one of the other ideas I took away from that book is that good and evil is never so cut and dry (by the way, that book is a great read - check it out).

 

Lucas' (and now Disney's) movies/tv show us a very small part of the mythos surrounding "dark -vs- light". When we, here, are discussing light -vs- dark, we are debating issues that have been debated forever IRL.

 

And frankly, I'd be surprised if Lucas wasn't delighted to see this thread. It's has much more meaning than the simple "He bad - go kill" in Hollywood.

Edited August 3, 2017 by cagthehack

[cagthehack]

 

Most overlook this - but it appears in this line that the Force has a WILL, and is alive. Makes sense since the Living Force that Qui Gon Jinn believed in also believed in the same thing. Despite it being at odds with many in game sith, this part of the code almost acknowledges that Faith in the Force sets one free from their chains.

 

 

So yeah - between the two, I'd be Sith. And I'd wager most successful people in life would more readily identify with the Sith vs the cult-like Jedi.

 

Well, the Force is everything. It is creation and evolution. Everything is the Force.. even plants and rocks. And keep in mind, the Sith and Jedi were not the first to use the force.

 

Also being Sith means freedom. Not so with the Jedi. Jedi are bound. And no emotion means you aren't even alive. Jedi might as well be droids.

 

Now of course, Sith aren't all roses., With freedom comes choice. And given the choice, many take the low road. But are all Sith evil because of that? Is someone who's ambitious and ruthless evil (we celebrate both IRL)? Someone like Darth Marr?

 

I guess it depends on your definition of evil. But there is one thing that can't be denied - the Dark side is power. And power corrupts. And that's the danger.

 

Using this game's rating I'd say Darth Marr is Dark 1 (maybe 2). Most of my characters are Dark 1. Meaning they wouldn't have any trouble killing you if you get in their way. But they'd never go out to murder for murder's sake.

Edited August 3, 2017 by cagthehack

[Kuvox]

I could argue that he's wrong, but that would take us into a debate over whether an artist has authority over the meaning of their art. I have massive respect for Lucas for creating this thing that I love, but I don't think he really understood it, or at least what it became.

 

This is a debate you will not win. I'm an attorney and copyrights, trademarks and patents are my thing. People are free to interpret anything the way they want, but you used the word 'authority' and the artist always has authority insofar as they protect and use it (at least in the U.S.), and Lucas clearly did both. His expositions of Star Wars hold infinitely greater weight than any of our comments and interpretations simply because he's the creator of this whole thing. If he said the dark side makes dark users completely miserable, then it does. End of story. The only thing that could counter this is another statement by Lucas that contradicts his comments in the video or contradictory text from post-Disney acquisition canon publications. In any case, Disney is likely to move away from this absolute good vs. absolute evil thing.

 

And, I completely agree with you that Lucas really misunderstood the force. He doesn't understood yin and yang and "balance." He backed himself into a corner with that word as it doesn't jibe with his comments in the video I posted.

[Kuvox]

So yeah - between the two, I'd be Sith. And I'd wager most successful people in life would more readily identify with the Sith vs the cult-like Jedi.

 

Using your extended universe interpretation of the Sith, then, yes, a lot of people probably would. However, using the current canon definition of the Sith and the dark side, no way. Motivation theory (i.e., what motivates people) is generally recognized as one of the most researched topics in the social sciences and it pretty much comes down to one word: happiness. Don't get me wrong, fear, greed and manipulation have been proven to be effective short-term motivators, but are absolutely terrible ones in the long-term as they don't evoke sustainble happiness. No one wants to be miserable. If following the darkside makes one miserable, as Lucas said it does, then why on earth would anyone go down that route?

[Thruine]

I have a couple of disagreements.

 

One is, I never consider what Lucas says after the fact. That to me has always been "Legends". He created it but seemed so bi-polar in how he presented it. Take the Empire and this Nazi Germany idea. At best he could have only meant the look of it. The feel. Palpatine isn't no Hitler. I don't think he's quite that bad just very practical. He manipulates those closest to him for certain but thinking back, Mace, Yoda and Luke were the only ones he ever actually fought. And there's the kissy face in two movies then surprise sister that has forever soured me that the man actually had a vision and didn't just see the attention to throw something together like it was all some plan. Like a painter hearing how much his work is marveled at when asked what he was thinking says some snooty things when he actually ran out of a color and had to improvise. Doesn't mean the painting isn't good and he wasn't masterful in its creation. Its just a collection of random colors he happened to arrange in a marvelous way.

 

Getting back to Palpatine, I could almost believe he did imagine, as many in various posts seem to, that the Sith code is good. It just leaves out the need for lackeys to do your dirty work. Palpatine may have been a nice guy who kisses babies. Just someone who wants peace and would destroy anyone he doesn't agree fits into this idea. That's not so bad after all. Just a question of degrees I suppose. Its Vader that kills whoever he wishes in the movies. I suppose you could be unforgiving about how someone performs their job and get better results. Vader seems to be the one everyone fears and why? Why fear someone who only wants the best from you? So its hard for me to agree that the Sith code is good in any fashion.

 

Now about the code itself, I agree following your passions can be liberating and offer a freedom others might not ever understand. But we know what following our passions lead to. Like a cop in a tv show whose passion is to pursue justice. But he's more likely to have marital problems or a drinking issues. Following you passions is good and most do not (they follow whims but nothing meaningful mostly). But to the exclusion of all else isn't a good thing. I heard of Sith who achieved greatness but its always came at a price. You have this power and able to do whatever you wish but you'll do it alone because no one can be trusted. Even a spouse becomes "evil" because they distract you from your passion. I thought it was Malgus who killed his own wife because being with her was a weakness. Following your passion isn't wrong. Believing its going to lead to absolute freedom is. The path between the two points requires so much sacrifice of so many things. Not just people but even your own goals because you don't know where a passion leads. You think you know what point you will arrive but following your passions truly means giving over to them and that means giving over to the ebbs and flows of them. Perhaps that's freedom to some but it sounds a bit like slavery to me. To have something so in control of you that all else fades to meaningless.

 

The Jedi code, while flawed, isn't a bad thing to me. Its just thinks it has all the answers when it doesn't. First is the idea that passions are wrong. We know the Jedi have passion because it takes it to follow the code. They might refer to it as dedication but passionate about something or dedicated to it are just degrees of a scale. The Jedi code shouldn't be taken as absolute. Like the line about the is no emotion. Obviously that is impossible and no Jedi takes it word for word. Like in this game, what's the first thing that you see when you arrive on Tython. Curiosity? But that's not an emotion. But there's always an emotional response tied to our curiosity. From there we see how attacks are met with. If you're a knight, Satelle shows concern when you get to the temple. Yuan shows excitement if you're a consular. And from there on we go. The Jedi tempie is full of emotion so either this order doesn't follow the code or they don't take it as an absolute. Important to point our, there's nothing in the code that would make the Jedi ignore the needs of Twi'lek village. They do so because the Republic said to. They seem to be losing who is in charge of their own house. Which could be a result of not being in charge as the Sith are of theirs. But we all know how pesky democracy can be when more that two people are involved.

 

Lets say the internet is the Force. And posters are the Jedi and Sith. Following your passion like a Sith means having forums full of flame wars and trolls while the subject of discussion is ignored and forgotten. The flames become the reason for being. The Jedi have us take the emotion out. To think what we are about to say. The discussion remains the focus. Disagreements are still there. They don't make everyone agree just how they accept disagreement. Life is full of it and we can't get rid of it. But we can change how we react to it. The Jedi would say agree to disagree while the Sith would keep fighting to have everyone agree. That's a bit how I view the two. I like what the Sith code wants to do but it never is that simple and doesn't explain exactly why evil is so much preferred with them. While the Jedi code is also flawed and imperfect, it does set out to not harm. We remove ourselves from the conflict to see it clearly. The individual must take the needs of the many into account and usually give them precedence. And even death doesn't end us but allows us to become the whole. The code just has more good to it to me which the Sith code doesn't. Passion is great but too much can be overwhelming and destructive. Ideally if we could mesh the two together we might have something that isn't as flawed but the first mistake is the belief that a code can define a person. They are simply too complex and sometimes contradictory to be simplified so easily. So of the two, I would pick the Jedi code. Its a good way to have peace which might be a lie but always a worthy goal. I think the Sith code encourages bad behavior even if you don't take it literately.

[Rogan_Lysis]

Using your extended universe interpretation of the Sith, then, yes, a lot of people probably would. However, using the current canon definition of the Sith and the dark side, no way. Motivation theory (i.e., what motivates people) is generally recognized as one of the most researched topics in the social sciences and it pretty much comes down to one word: happiness. Don't get me wrong, fear, greed and manipulation have been proven to be effective short-term motivators, but are absolutely terrible ones in the long-term as they don't evoke sustainble happiness. No one wants to be miserable. If following the darkside makes one miserable, as Lucas said it does, then why on earth would anyone go down that route?

 

I think that's the lesson to be learned here, both extremes of the force bring misery. Only through balance can there be peace.

[ZionHalcyon]

I think that's the lesson to be learned here, both extremes of the force bring misery. Only through balance can there be peace.

 

In other words, Revan had it right!

[SaveTheMonkeys]

This is a debate you will not win. I'm an attorney and copyrights, trademarks and patents are my thing. People are free to interpret anything the way they want, but you used the word 'authority' and the artist always has authority insofar as they protect and use it (at least in the U.S.), and Lucas clearly did both. His expositions of Star Wars hold infinitely greater weight than any of our comments and interpretations simply because he's the creator of this whole thing. If he said the dark side makes dark users completely miserable, then it does. End of story. The only thing that could counter this is another statement by Lucas that contradicts his comments in the video or contradictory text from post-Disney acquisition canon publications. In any case, Disney is likely to move away from this absolute good vs. absolute evil thing.

 

And, I completely agree with you that Lucas really misunderstood the force. He doesn't understood yin and yang and "balance." He backed himself into a corner with that word as it doesn't jibe with his comments in the video I posted.

 

You'll never win against whether an artist has authority over his art - they always do.

 

However, one angle you can take that COULD work against Lucas, is that he isn't the true artist behind the original art - http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/the-secret-weapon-behind-star-wars/news-story/75eb078a8b14d93fce23b06e98805ffb

 

His ex wife seems to have been behind many of the most influential decisions of the original trilogy - and it could explain why the prequels felt a bit off. She reigned him in.

 

Ok, fair enough. 'Authority' was the wrong word to use

That's an interesting article, though. I need to read the book it references!

 

Palpatine isn't no Hitler. I don't think he's quite that bad just very practical.

 

He manipulated both sides of a galactic war that killed millions for the sake of personal power. Comparing anyone to Hitler is never a good idea, but there's no doubt Palpatine was a bad guy.

 

And there's the kissy face in two movies then surprise sister that has forever soured me that the man actually had a vision...

 

Oh, he definitely didn't have everything nailed down from the start - there are numerous retcons and contradictions throughout the original trilogy. Plus, he went back to change things long afterward. I think of him as something like an alchemist, who combined a bunch of different genres into a Hero's Journey plot and ended up with gold. Accidentally, perhaps.

 

 

The Jedi code, while flawed, isn't a bad thing to me. Its just thinks it has all the answers when it doesn't.

 

I agree. What the first tenet seems to mean in practice is "Don't let emotion drive your actions," which is an idea straight out of Buddhism.

[Thruine]

He manipulated both sides of a galactic war that killed millions for the sake of personal power. Comparing anyone to Hitler is never a good idea, but there's no doubt Palpatine was a bad guy.

 

Oh, he definitely didn't have everything nailed down from the start - there are numerous retcons and contradictions throughout the original trilogy. Plus, he went back to change things long afterward. I think of him as something like an alchemist, who combined a bunch of different genres into a Hero's Journey plot and ended up with gold. Accidentally, perhaps.

 

Oh, he was a bad man who I considered to have won because his opposition was so incredibly dumb. But all those deaths don't bother me so much since in Star Wars, life is cheap. I mean, has anyone thought of the prisoners on the Death Star besides Princess Leia who didn't get rescued? Or how many there might have been. Plus those that were just doing a job and it was for the Empire... or might have been the Republic... to them it was a military career. Not going to say we have to stop and think of the children but I think we would have seen our heroes not as shiny if we got to know these folks a bit or how many of them. You're right about the Hitler thing.

 

I've always found it a little curious with Lucas that he goes to all trouble of making Han shoot first that he even accepts a laser blast that leaves a blaster almost sideways, but leaves these deep tongue massages between Luke and Leia unchanged. Especially for those of us who were reading the Star Wars novels and comics before Return of the Jedi. It was like getting the most beautiful girl you've ever seen to come to you bed, you don't know if things will wait, if you know what I mean, and as you both undress and you reach for her she says "I'm your father."

 

I agree. What the first tenet seems to mean in practice is "Don't let emotion drive your actions," which is an idea straight out of Buddhism.

 

Which I have always thought of the better route than say commit the act then beg for forgiveness some of the Christianity faiths seems to practice which was my norm growing up. I never understood that. Why would God continue to forgive someone who refuses to control themselves time and time again. Trying to take out as much emotion as possible usually helps every situation. There are some you want charged with it but the day to day needs you to be calm so people can understand you clearly and you them.

[Myrmicus]

The main issue with the "dark side" its not its techings, its the own nature of the person.

And that's where I can't agree.

As much as the Force is a... well... a force connecting living beings, the Dark Side has no teaching, it is the corruptive and overall negative aspect of the Force. It is the "dark side" of the human mind made "flesh" if I can say so. It exists within the Star Wars universe, it is negative (if not evil) and it does corrupt things it touches.

 

Now, I understand (and tend to accept) that the Sith code isn't evil in itself, that it has its virtues and could be used by a benevolent being. But the problem reside in the Dark Side and the corruption it brings. The two, together, are bound to turn anyone into a complete monster. The guy you mentionned as "a Sith that is not evil" isn't even a good counter-exemple in this regard. It's a stretch to say he isn't evil... he just isn't bent on galaxy domination and mass murdering. But, he is a rutheless buisness man. Ruthless as in "will do anything to be successful" (sidenote : a real world big capitalist corporation would be considered sociopath if it was an individual).

 

 

The only thing I could agree with is that a person's nature is important : while being undoubtedly negative and corruptive, one must "fall" to the Dark Side. It is, as such, a road that someone must take to become corrupted (whether he wants it or not). What do we know in that regard ? The Dark Side feeds off passions, strong (and most of the time negative) emotions, such as fear and anger. Fear and anger are the most obvious choice, because those emotions are badly viewed by most. But, the problem lies in emotions in general. The emotional spectrum is a subtle and complex thing : love can lead to jealousy, which would lead to fear and/or anger. Love could also lead to a whole lot of good emotions, like sympathy, empathy (and that is why both Jedi and Sith keep love in check : to avoid "falling" to the other side). The Dark Side thrive and a negative mental state : using one power for the wrong reason corrupts you... no matter the intention. That's why the jedi code wants you to "be a vegetable", because keeping your emotions in check is the best way to avoid falling to the Dark Side.

 

In the end, the Force, as a whole, is an incredibly dangerous thing : of course, Jedis can do a lot of good things but the existence of the Dark Side force them to avoid doing anything. If a genie told me "would you be Force-Sensitive ?" I would answer "No", because even if I do consider myself a decent guy, I know I couldn't control my emotions well enough to avoid being corrupted by the Dark Side. I'd turn into a Darksiders pretty quickly actually : having a power that corrupts you so completely if you loose your calm from time to time ? Darth Myrmicus, a jedi who fell because of trolls from the internet.

Hell, it's a known thing that power is easily abused and corrupt people even without some mystical (and very real within universe) energy that mess with your mind and body.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Myrmicus

[menofhorror]

The worst thing storywise that KOTET did was in my opinion how they did Saresh dirty. From a offensive but loyal republic chancellor who understood that you can't always be on defense with the empire to a "Haha, I don't care about anything else than my amibition and my myself."

[Myrmicus]

The worst thing storywise that KOTET did was in my opinion how they did Saresh dirty. From a offensive but loyal republic chancellor who understood that you can't always be on defense with the empire to a "Haha, I don't care about anything else than my amibition and my myself."

 

I don't see a problem. We should not forget that you spend 5 years trapped into carbonite... During theese five years, both the Sith Empire and the Republic have been brought to their knees by a galactic despot. Saresh crossing the moral event horizon in this situation is understandable. Even more if your Alliance Commander is from the Empire to begin with.

[SaveTheMonkeys]

Oh, he was a bad man who I considered to have won because his opposition was so incredibly dumb. But all those deaths don't bother me so much since in Star Wars, life is cheap. I mean, has anyone thought of the prisoners on the Death Star besides Princess Leia who didn't get rescued? Or how many there might have been. Plus those that were just doing a job and it was for the Empire... or might have been the Republic... to them it was a military career. Not going to say we have to stop and think of the children but I think we would have seen our heroes not as shiny if we got to know these folks a bit or how many of them. You're right about the Hitler thing.

 

I don't think Lucas wanted people thinking too deeply about that sort of moral issue (or he just didn't consider it himself), which kind of comes back to the point that the other writers who added to Star Wars are the ones who gave it most (all?) of its depth. One of the best things about Rogue One was how it gave the rebellion a bit of grey.

 

The Clone Wars series is a much deeper prequel story than the film trilogy. It makes Palpatine's machinations a lot more substantive and the failure of those he manipulated much more believable.

 

I've always found it a little curious with Lucas that he goes to all trouble of making Han shoot first that he even accepts a laser blast that leaves a blaster almost sideways, but leaves these deep tongue massages between Luke and Leia unchanged.

 

Why he felt the need to retroactively change the wrong bits, much less make new films that add further contradiction is a mystery

[Thruine]

Don't you think that perhaps the dark side doesn't really feed on negative emotions but primal ones. Those that just come naturally as if you had a toddler and never taught it right from wrong you have one mean little kid. A lot of what we see concerning the dark side also has this horror movie touch. The dark caves, the ruins, the figure in black, masked figures, masked figures in black I thought when I first saw Empire Strike Back why is Yoda living by this creepy cave where time seems to slow and its all misty The reason the Jedi take them in so young is to curb as much of that as possible.

 

With Saresh, I don't think she was treated badly in the story because she always strike me as a little conniving. Back with our first meeting on Taris, she grounded a workforce who wanted to leave due to fear. How cruel is it that someone is afraid of their surroundings and you force them to stay in them for your dream. So I could see her going this route. She's still alive for me so perhaps she'll learn the error of her ways.

 

On the prequels, I still can't believe Lucas made some of the decisions he did there. Even if we just overlook these special edition edits to the originals, to make films that just make it all so incredibly stupid was highly disappointed. Even there he makes a romance seem wrong. Like what is it with him and romance. I feel bad that Lucas got so much flak for those films but man were some of those decisions terrible.

 

One other thing to bring up that I don't have a clear idea of is the force ghost thing. Why do the Jedi have this ability, a bit of immortality, if their code is "wrong"? To me, its the natural extension of their teachings. I've also thought that perhaps they aren't actually real but the Force using their image to speak those specific ideas and wishes. Sort of using the image of the man it had influenced previously. Now that he's dead, it just uses his image to continue expressing those ideas. It would help explain Anakin being there at all to me. Plus we see the Jedi referring to past masters a good deal whereas the Sith don't like to acknowledge anyone as greater than themselves.