Before we ask for balance changes, we need to agree on the content

[Qwurdilu]

Theres so many class balance threads the last couple days but the real question is: Balance for what?

 

Regs, solo or teamranked?

 

Example:

From a soloranked, all-dps-game point of view, mercs are super overpowered due to their amount of selfheals. From a teamranked point of view merc is just another dps. In fact id never choose a merc over a skilled sniper in that gamemode.Merc defensives heavily revolve arount selfhealing, but in games with tank and healer defensives with pure dmg. mitigation are better, and merc isnt OP anymore, as he is in games without heals.

 

So is it really merc that is broken, or is it the gammode that favors selfhealing classes?

 

How about we start asking for forced trinity in ever ranked game before we ask to balance gammodes that can never be balanced?

Edited January 13, 2017 by Qwurdilu

[Severith]

I think you meant "Context" in your title. Maybe Swtor is so low on actual "content" and you got confused.

 

As for mercs, the "context" is hard target switches. In a round that lasts less than 40 seconds, you'll have two hard target switches to contend with against a merc. Doesn't matter if it's solo ranked or group ranked. During those hard target switches, the merc is still going to be dpsing or healing.

 

If you have a full 5 minute match, against a merc you're actually looking at a total of upwards of 9 hard target switches, 7 because of energy shield and 2 because of their reflect. During those switches, they get healed. They still dps. It costs them, or their team, nothing.

 

Some classes don't even have hard target switches, but those that do generally have them at 2 or 3 minute cooldowns, which would be twice in a full 5 minute round. Other classes have abilities that seem like hard target switches, but only last for 4 seconds, not the 12 that mercs get with energy shield. It's not even worth it switching targets half the time then, it's just a delay in damage. But you absolutely have to switch targets against a merc due to the healing stacks.

 

You want to talk about regs? Regs are not a good indication of class balance simply due to how diluted individual abilities are in a 8v8 situation, but lets look at objective play. Mercs are now the best huttball carriers. Mercs are now the best node defenders.

 

You'd think the only time a merc isn't op, is when you have the option to attack his teammates instead of him, which should tell you something is very wrong. Except that isn't true either, because leaving them to free cast means they get to do a lot of single target damage, or they get to heal their team uninterrupted.

 

That's the "Context".

 

Snipers are in a really good spot right now too, but lets electrocute the smelliest elephant in the room before messing with the other elephants no one is talking about.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Severith

[Severith]

From a teamranked point of view merc is just another dps. In fact id never choose a merc over a skilled sniper in that gamemode.

 

Just ran the numbers for group ranked.

 

The top 200 mercs are ranked 931 or above. That's 21.5%.

 

The top 200 snipers are ranked 2672 or above. That's 7.5%.

 

You might take a equally skilled sniper over a merc for group ranked, but that's not what is happening in the winner's circle.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Severith

[Qwurdilu]

Obviously theres more mercs, because the skillevel required for sniper is a whole other ballpark. Same for marauder.

 

Ive played over a 100 teamranked games this season, and i can assure you that merc has worse defensives compared to a sniper that knows what hes doing.

 

You simply cant play around a snipers defensives. You can on mercs. You can outplay reflect with dots and aoe, and you can outplay energy shield by not attacking. You can switch targets so easily when facing mercs, you cant with snipers.

 

Usually i have around 1k less dps on games against snipers compared to games around mercs. You may think that is made up by selfhealing, but thats wrong. Sniper actually gets very similar amounts of selfhealing compared to mercs in teamranked. (Both beeing surpassed by marauder btw.)

 

I heavily doubt you actually have teamranked experience and youre talking from a theoretical pov if im wrong im sorry.

However regarding best defensives Spot one and two are taken by sniper and marauder, then comes merc. That is assuming decent skilllevel, merc is obviously a whole lot easier to perform good on compared to sniper.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Qwurdilu

[Severith]

Sniper actually gets very similar amounts of selfhealing compared to mercs in teamranked. (Both beeing surpassed by marauder btw.)

 

 

Yep, sniper self healing is on par with merc, both of which are outdone by anni spec maras. Winning teams in group ranked don't often use anni spec maras though. The dotspread, which links to their dps and their heals, messes up all the teams soft stuns. The healing on carna or fury doesn't come close to the healing on snipers or mercs.

 

 

Usually i have around 1k less dps on games against snipers compared to games around mercs.

 

Without context, this statement is useless. Confirm your class and spec, then we can talk about how snipers affect your dps. Seeing how you keep going off about maras, that's my assumption, and snipers are supposed to be a counter to melee. Your 1k dps loss isn't affecting all the classes.

 

 

However regarding best defensives Spot one and two are taken by sniper and marauder, then comes merc.

 

You're actually saying maras have better defenses than mercs right now. You've lost all credibility here. Mercs have very, very big defensive toolkit. Mara's have a much smaller toolkit, with smaller durations and longer cooldown timers. Undying rage lasts 4 seconds, and has a three minute cooldown. That's the mara's best dcd, and it's on par with an arsenal merc's chaff flare, which is on a 45 second cool down. Chaff flare is proably the 4th or 5th best dcd a merc has. Defensively, they're not even close.

 

Mara's are almost always targeted first in team ranked. (unless a team thinks a healer can be burned) If they were harder to kill than other classes, then wouldn't be the case.

 

 

Ive played over a 100 teamranked games this season, and i can assure you that merc has worse defensives compared to a sniper that knows what hes doing.

 

I heavily doubt you actually have teamranked experience and youre talking from a theoretical pov if im wrong im sorry.

 

"Assuring" people in a discussion on game balance doesn't accomplish anything. Prove your points.

 

It takes what, 25 valor to que for teamranked? That's your qualification for why your opinion counts. If you're going to use that as "evidence" then post a screenshot of your toon with the pvp interface open and "show pvp stats" selected. Otherwise, stick to arguments that make coherent, provable points.

 

Thread is done for me. I'll read your next few posts, to see if you linked your screen. At least you learned the difference between "Content" and "Context" though. (Hopefully) Progress.

[Qwurdilu]

Wow i dont even know where to start...

 

 

Yep, sniper self healing is on par with merc, both of which are outdone by anni spec maras. Winning teams in group ranked don't often use anni spec maras though. The dotspread, which links to their dps and their heals, messes up all the teams soft stuns. The healing on carna or fury doesn't come close to the healing on snipers or mercs.

 

I know at least 5 of the top ten marauders play anni, so i wonder what you base that statement on? Also youre so wrong that anni interferes with ccs. Its very easy to not dotspread onto targets you dont want to. And once they stack so badly that you cant, youll do so much dps theyll have other issues. Also its longest dots is less than 9 seconds, so they run out very fast anyway.

Ive yet to see a topteam running anything but anni except for farming noobs carnage or smash is not viable.

 

Without context, this statement is useless. Confirm your class and spec, then we can talk about how snipers affect your dps. Seeing how you keep going off about maras, that's my assumption, and snipers are supposed to be a counter to melee. Your 1k dps loss isn't affecting all the classes.

 

Its true for every specc we played with. A merc freecasting on a sniper will do way less dps than he does against another merc. Sniper has by far the best damage mitigating cooldowns. Diversion and evasion alone is better than any other class has to offer. Snipers defensives are excellent against everyone. Honestly, uptime isnt really a problem as a maro, the problem is that half of your hits will miss against a sniper.

 

You're actually saying maras have better defenses than mercs right now. You've lost all credibility here. Mercs have very, very big defensive toolkit. Mara's have a much smaller toolkit, with smaller durations and longer cooldown timers. Undying rage lasts 4 seconds, and has a three minute cooldown. That's the mara's best dcd, and it's on par with an arsenal merc's chaff flare, which is on a 45 second cool down. Chaff flare is proably the 4th or 5th best dcd a merc has. Defensively, they're not even close.

 

Youre wrong on so many levels. First of all, undying rage isnt even close the best defensive maro has. In fact its by far the worst.

Second, maro has an AMAZING toolkit.

The very best is cloak of pain which gives 20% DR for 30 seconds on a minute cooldown.

The second best is obfuscate which, when skilled, has a 45 second cooldown, increasing tech/force resistance by 75% plus reducing the targets melee/range by 90%.

The third best is vanish for obvious reasons, 45 seconds cooldown.

Then comes Saber ward

And the very last is undying.

Id even rate dash before undying because in an average match i mitigate more dmg with it.

 

Add on top of that more heal than a merc. So marauder not only has more cooldowns, it has the better ones. I really wonder what you base your opinion on merc would have superior cds? All merc has is lots of selfheal, but selfheal scales really bad in a teamranked environment.

 

Someone stating marauder has less of toolkit than a merc for teamranked really has no clue. I have to assume you never really played teamranked on a proper level

 

Mara's are almost always targeted first in team ranked. (unless a team thinks a healer can be burned) If they were harder to kill than other classes, then wouldn't be the case.

 

Since the meta is to cc heal and split on dps, its quite obvious that marauder is one of the targets. That doesnt prove anything. Id rather tunnel a merc than a marauder any day.

However since youre using "always" i wonder how many games youve played?

 

Thread is done for me. I'll read your next few posts, to see if you linked your screen. At least you learned the difference between "Content" and "Context" though. (Hopefully) Progress.

 

Some nasty arrogance paired with classic dunning kruger. I really wonder why you are talking about something we both know you have no experience in? Why is it so important to you to give a lecture about something you have no clue about?

Man i still gotta smile about what you just said about marauders defensives...

 

You sir, are some special kind of stupid

Edited January 13, 2017 by Qwurdilu

[DerSchneider]

Theres so many class balance threads the last couple days but the real question is: Balance for what?

 

Regs, solo or teamranked?

 

Example:

From a soloranked, all-dps-game point of view, mercs are super overpowered due to their amount of selfheals. From a teamranked point of view merc is just another dps. In fact id never choose a merc over a skilled sniper in that gamemode.Merc defensives heavily revolve arount selfhealing, but in games with tank and healer defensives with pure dmg. mitigation are better, and merc isnt OP anymore, as he is in games without heals.

 

So is it really merc that is broken, or is it the gammode that favors selfhealing classes?

 

How about we start asking for forced trinity in ever ranked game before we ask to balance gammodes that can never be balanced?

 

In any case, mercs have more passive healing than juggs and more mitigation than powertechs, while having more burst. If mercs aren't the best class for team ranked doesn't mean they aren't hell of OP. There are plenty of classes that aren't viable for team ranked dps-wise.

Why mara and sniper (arguably) are balanced and still require skill to play? Because their DCD are very reactive and based on mitigation, not stupid amounts of healing. Bioware did big mistake when started to give healing cooldowns to each class.

[Qwurdilu]

In any case, mercs have more passive healing than juggs and more mitigation than powertechs, while having more burst. If mercs aren't the best class for team ranked doesn't mean they aren't hell of OP. There are plenty of classes that aren't viable for team ranked dps-wise.

Why mara and sniper (arguably) are balanced and still require skill to play? Because their DCD are very reactive and based on mitigation, not stupid amounts of healing. Bioware did big mistake when started to give healing cooldowns to each class.

 

I completely agree, but other than forcing trinity to every ranked game i see no way to consistenly balance mitigation vs selfhealing

 

imho we need to settle for a fixed gamemode and then adress classbalance.

[frosttj]

I've long thought they should remove T1/Top AC rewards from solo ranked and put them soley in group ranked since it's the harder game mode that requires 4 good players knowing what they're doing, and not playing an OP class on a dead server. Balance PVP around trinity, stop giving classes brainless defensives, and work on making a majority of specs viable in some form or other.

 

But nope, community is too casual and nobody wants their performance actually tied to them, so we get solo ranked..with every match being loaded with mercs hoping to be carried by their class. And to those people,

.

[Qwurdilu]

I've long thought they should remove T1/Top AC rewards from solo ranked and put them soley in group ranked since it's the harder game mode that requires 4 good players knowing what they're doing, and not playing an OP class on a dead server. Balance PVP around trinity, stop giving classes brainless defensives, and work on making a majority of specs viable in some form or other.

 

But nope, community is too casual and nobody wants their performance actually tied to them, so we get solo ranked..with every match being loaded with mercs hoping to be carried by their class. And to those people,

.

 

You may want to support this

[jedcjedcjedc]

Just ran the numbers for group ranked.

 

The top 200 mercs are ranked 931 or above. That's 21.5%.

 

The top 200 snipers are ranked 2672 or above. That's 7.5%.

 

You might take a equally skilled sniper over a merc for group ranked, but that's not what is happening in the winner's circle.

wasn't using this kind of math explained to you already?

[AlrikFassbauer]

wasn't using this kind of math explained to you already?

 

It's not about math,

it's about psychology : "Why don't people use Snipers ?"

[jedcjedcjedc]

It's not about math,

it's about psychology : "Why don't people use Snipers ?"

 

pretty much, but he used this argument in another thread, and it was explained to him, people don't play all classes equally

[KittyKat_Karrot]

group ranked

[Severith]

wasn't using this kind of math explained to you already?

 

Being attacked a bit here, so going to respond.

 

A fella assumed the math on these percentages was intended to prove if a class was objectively performing better. That's not what it's for, or what it does. The percentages measures class participation among the top pvpers, and how they relate to other top pvpers in their class choices. The error in objecting from this type of comparison stems from people who think "classes" que for ranked. Classes don't que, players do.

 

Simply put, people que with classes they think they can do well with. The percentages show the "what", the discussion after the math can determine the "why". If you disagree, I can only point to all the FOTM mercs currently queing, or even the term FOTM itself. It's illogical to assume there is no correlation between the highest played, highest performing class in ranked and the abilities that class possesses.

 

This entire thread was started by a watchman sent (anni mara) who thinks snipers need to be nerfed. That's probably true. But instead of reading the sniper abilities and stating which abilities need to be looked at, he disguised his "nerf sniper post" as a "lets all talk about content" thread. Cowardly, and the thread didn't go In the direction he wanted it to.

 

But he did learn the difference between context and content. Hurray.

[Xertasian]

only 1 person in this thread got it right,,outside of trinity in group rank..maras and snipers are your top dps class..it take a high level skillplay to be effective,,merc the skill play isn't high to be a factor..yes in group rank a merc is shutdown easily..main reason being there burst damage is useless against a guarded healer..same with a decpetion sin in group rank..why people don't use them..

 

you scrub teams running merc and sins with trinity..they get destroyed against sniper and mara duo..since alot of you people don't get it..guess the old man got to enlighten you youngsters..why people claim snipers and maras are best combo for group rank..hands down they have the best group utilities in the game..paired with the trinity they become unstoppable almost..

 

carnage and fury mara is useless in group rank..cause there burst will be reduce to half or negated by tank passives or sniper dcd if he using it..anni mara is viable cause there more of a hybrid with dots and white damage..kind of hard to mitigate it all..compared to a merc burst damage from arsenal..also mara take utility that reduces obsfugate to 45 seconds ..that mean the other utility that give them 6 seconds of 75% resistance to force and tech attack can be used in each minute of group rank wz..

 

snipers is a different kind of beast..to make this class shine you have to know what you are doing..a well played sniper in group rank is a monster to kill..they hit hard for starters..they have insane good group and single dcd's..meaning the healer and tank job becomes easier..mercs don't provide that level of expertise..they only got 3 self heals and medium core damage..

 

lastly to put it simpler..mercs have the tools to win a fight..snipers and maras have the skills to win the war..that why they are best 2 dps classes for group rank..they bring more to the table than any other class or spec in terms of group synergy..