RNG is perfect for SWTOR and I'll explain why.

[ivanhedgehog]

All that based on their not being GC meaning you truly believe the game is better off with it population wise with it?

 

Wow, you are deluded.

 

Just say NO! to drugs kids!!!!!

[ivanhedgehog]

Wait till these new players find out there hasn't been a new raid in over 2 years and that they have a massive grind ahead of them in the hopes they get gear from random lock boxes.

 

Lets be real about this. Every MMO needs to add new content to keep players and to bring new players in. Even WOW loses players, but every time they add an expansion it goes up again.

 

SWTOR can't just magically keep a stable population without adding new playable MMO content to do. We've seen that with all the dead servers and mass transfers: People want to play with people. I'd wager that most of the people playing this game care more about the social/multiplayer side than the single player story side.

 

In 4.0 they spent the budget that would have gone to ops/wzs om level sync. so they could convince people to grind h2s over and over. with 5.0 they spent the money that should have been used for content on a gearing system that most do not like and nobody asked for. Doesnt look promising at this time. there is no new group content to keep peoples interest, CXP grind gets old in a couple of days and wont keep people through the holidays much less until summer. We get to see if the same bugs that killed last decembers events strike again. My money is on yes.

[Pietrastor]

It bears repeating -- the "inclusion" part of Galactic Command is good.

 

It's the RNG portion that is the problem.

 

You're familiar with the typical "bell curve" chart of random number distribution? Every single player that falls on the left-hand side of that curve is going to feel "excluded".

 

The drop rate is simply too low. Opening dozens of crates without getting anything is bad enough, but EVEN if we assume the drop rate set in the script is 12.5% (and that is a very generous assumption looking at the numbers people are posting) and comparable to 1/8 chance to win in former Ops rolls, it's like Bioware forgot we're not even "rolling" in Command Crates for a specific item lol. We used to roll for a specific token in Operations, MASSIVE difference. In RNG crates, it's a small chance to win one of 20+ possible purples. The number of non-useful stuff like duplicates and clicky relics makes the whole system even worse.

 

It's nothing but discouraging to go through crate after create during week of HEAVY playtime and still end up with marginally better gear than at the start. Devs underestimate how unrewarding RNG boxes can discourage people. RNG can work, but not if most of the players end up seeing it as a big waste of time.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Pietrastor

[Aowin]

The drop rate is simply too low. Opening dozens of crates without getting anything is bad enough, but EVEN if we assume the drop rate set in the script is 12.5% (and that is a very generous assumption looking at the numbers people are posting) and comparable to 1/8 chance to win in former Ops rolls, it's like Bioware forgot we're not even "rolling" in Command Crates for a specific item lol. We used to roll for a specific token in Operations, MASSIVE difference. In RNG crates, it's a small chance to win one of 20+ possible purples. The number of non-useful stuff like duplicates and clicky relics makes the whole system even worse.

 

It's nothing but discouraging to go through crate after create during week of HEAVY playtime and still end up with marginally better gear than at the start. Devs underestimate how unrewarding RNG boxes can discourage people. RNG can work, but not if most of the players end up seeing it as a big waste of time.

 

I think what many don't seem to understand is BioWare does not want us getting gear nearly as fast as we did before. That's why the drops for set piece gear, in particular, are so low due to RNG. The expansion has only been out for a week, yet the fact that no one can guarantee they'll have BiS within a certain amount of time is driving some players mad. I think it really goes to show just how spoiled and reliant players were on the previous system. There is no legitimate reason, in any MMO, that a player should be able to fully gear their characters a week or two after launch.

 

We can debate about what we "deserve," but nobody can argue that RNG is not doing exactly what it was intended to do: slow progression tremendously. It may not be a fun experience for many, but it definitely provides BioWare with controls over how fast the player base progresses and exactly when they'd like us to have gear. At this point in time, considering most players are still tier 1, I don't personally care that set piece gear is not readily available. BioWare is obviously going to judge community progression when they think allowing us to have set piece gear is necessary, largely by when they release new group content.

 

I think it's a bold way to run an MMO, and while it may scare some folks away due to not being able to handle the lack of control, I think many will come to adapt and accept the system and that the grind for gear is not the focal point of the experience. Really, it seems to me BioWare wants the player base to actually just have fun playing the game, rather than trying to min/max and gear our characters immediately and not enjoy what the game offers as a result.

[Khevar]

I think what many don't seem to understand is BioWare does not want us getting gear nearly as fast as we did before. That's why the drops for set piece gear, in particular, are so low due to RNG.

Do you understand what I posted earlier about the "bell curve" nature of random numbers?

 

It is that, that is the flaw in RNG.

 

20% of the players will get desirable gear half as fast as the average.

10% of the players will get desirable gear a third as fast as the average.

5% of the players will get desirable gear a fourth as fast as the average.

 

This means that 1 out of every 20 players will take 4 times as long as the typical player to gear up.

 

Those unlucky 5% will NOT feel "included". Something you made a big point about being the GOAL of this new system.

 

----

 

Previous iterations of the gearing system contained methods to offset bad RNG. Commendations. Gear tokens. Etc. As of this writing, all of these mechanisms have been removed. All we have as RNG.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Khevar

[Hichitsuki-hime]

RNG is something BioWare is devoted to and I don't see them rapidly changing that system. I can see them increasing CXP gains, allowing more crates to drop, etc. However, I don't see them taking steps to undermine the RNG, which they very much support and want in place. Regardless of whether people believe RNG is good or bad for the game, BioWare believes it will lead to the best results based on how they have structured gear progression.

 

RNG is also something they got rid of in SO many aspects of the game - like rotations. Why the hell can't our command boxes be the same as heroic boxes during leveling. those were so nice. every crate - 2 pieces of gear. i could open boxes after 4 heroics and get 4 of the same items, but that is still BETTER than getting trash like pets, shells, jawa junk or rep. tokens.

 

don't get me wrong, i know there is a lot of people who like collecting cartel armor and stuff, but FFS not at the expense of gear please. yes you can say that every crate gives a piece of gear. thing is, for most people that gear is total TRASH unless it's Set bonus pieces, or at least purples. Sure, if you start a token toon it will have 208 gear, in that case even that 228 green garbage will be an upgrade. but let's face it, most people will have at least 1 set of 224 or 220 gear they can wear while they level up to 70.

[-Spc]

Here we go, next star wars will be like this:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/12/california-man-spent-1-million-playing-game-of-war/

 

[Hichitsuki-hime]

The weak excuses the devs use to force RNG down our throats was that "you don't get a set piece every raid" but after 14 raids you will definitely have something that isn't a bunch are terrible cosmetics

thing is, with raids, at least with most guild runs and MOST pugs that i've been in at least, if you don't get a token, you will certainly get a MMG or 2 if you're lucky ( at least if you're doing HM lol) and then you can get yourself a something crafted if you need it, or at least make some money. so no one would walk out completely empty handed.

now though....... BLEH. just BLEH.

[Mowermanx]

I There is no legitimate reason, in any MMO, that a player should be able to fully gear their characters a week or two after launch.

.

 

While you have somewhat of a point about being too fast, over a week is well and truly enough to gauge how the system is working.

And you really shouldn't add other games into the equation as just about all of them still use an added currency to offset rng from raids/run of losses in pvp, something we had here as well.

Its not guesswork, its not opinion, rng will screw people over. No matter how they tweak it, its going to end in tears.

They Could bump elites to 50 points per, and people will still get royally shafted by this system.

They could tweak it so you were guaranteed the items at certain points, but that then begs the question, why have rng at all?

[BoySaber]

Galactic Command is not what you titled your topic with. We all agree that Galactic Command, this new version of Group Finder is good way to go to benefit veteran and newcomers. RNG does not benefit anyone and is entirely different topic that sucked on Galactic Command as a parasite. You said you played since beta. I may not be veteran by your standards but I play since 2012 and I hope you will take my opinion into count. I never did NiM runs but I am not one to say no if opportunity happens, I play this game first and foremost for the story, because its Star Wars. But I also enjoy group activities.

 

I suggested compromise because current system does not benefit non heavy players at all. With already long queues as it is, we pay to wait to farm CXP to get a Crate that may or may not give us item we want and may never give us item we want, because RNG has no guarantee that your invested time and money (in 90% identical content that use to be free/GTN) will pay off. Playing swtor in terms of grinding CXP as a full time job may have some nice results, but what is to expect from players that have jobs, families, and the free time they invest to complete content in game bares no significant reward for months? Which current state of the game is. I don't get it how can your topic title wield word of "perfection" in this case, its beyond my understanding, and would like you to explain this to me because so far I fail to understand. I understand why company did it and they will think of any justification. But I don't know why you share their goal, as a fellow player to player, I really do not get you.

 

 

 

I've said it time and time again. Gear progression was far too fast and far too easy for veterans. On the other hand with newcomers, it was convoluted and not well-explained by the game. This led to an obvious division and a gap in terms of gear, creating the "haves" and have-nots."

 

BioWare did what any sensible studio would have, destroy the inequality at its source. I understand you, and many others do not like the RNG. That system merely provides a buffer to those who want to guarantee they'll get gear within a certain amount of time. It drastically slows down the process of progression so that the community is not divided immediately. It's great for the purposes of longevity as well as giving BioWare time to develop new content.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the direction BioWare has gone. Folks are just struggling to adjust to it due to being spoiled by an incredibly easy gear progression for years. It's expected and you can be sure BioWare knew this kind of reaction from part of the community was going to happen. Galactic Command with RNG is something BioWare has clearly been working on for quite some time. They weren't just going to revert course because a vocal minority was voicing their displeasure after a week of experiencing the system. That's not how you responsibly run an MMO.

 

These folks will either adapt or they will move on to something else. Or, I suppose there is always the third option of continuing to subscribe, hoping for content that is probably not coming, and continuing to beat a topic over the head like a dead horse.

 

That still does not make things clear if you just repeat what you said. There is one thing when gearing is too fast to slow it down, and there is another thing called waste of time. For people who can play 1 hour per day, and all that time invested just in CXP farm, they will get to about rank 300 in 300 days, and have 300 chances, and may never get the gear set they want. Full time swtor players, those with 10h per day, can have 300 chances to get gear they want in a month, thats for 1 single character. That's why I do not understand you, and you repeating yourself does not explain anything. We don't say Galactic Command is bad nor that gear should be too fast, like 1-2 week, but to replace it with abnormally slow rate, that does not even have a guarantee (you may never get a desired set in 10 years of play), and stating that players are spoiled for not wanting that makes me think you are one of the employees over there.

 

Everyone now progresses at different rate which splits players in categories with who can you play. I will not be able to play with friends who get stuff in 1 month that I get in 7 months, because luck is what matters, not time invested. Why would players want to play multiplayer if the game itself separates them from friends via RNG, and why is that to you as player good. You don't need to repeat yourself why EaWare did it, as I said I understand their reasons. I want to know why are you as player perfectly fine that friends and players should be split by RNG into categories, how that tears guild groups apart, so that they cannot play together same content without asking lucky RNGers to play easier and now boring content to them as they advanced.

Edited December 10, 2016 by BoySaber

[gabigool]

I think what many don't seem to understand is BioWare does not want us getting gear nearly as fast as we did before.

 

I think what you don't understand is that many of us believe that's an idiotic posture for the studio to take in this game at this time.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

I think what you don't understand is that many of us believe that's an idiotic posture for the studio to take in this game at this time.

 

true true, but at the same time BW doesn't seem to care much..... cause after all .............:D:D Ben Irving 2016: RNG IS EXCITING :eek:

[Aowin]

Previous iterations of the gearing system contained methods to offset bad RNG. Commendations. Gear tokens. Etc. As of this writing, all of these mechanisms have been removed. All we have as RNG.

 

Incorrect. There was more inequality under the old system than there will be with the new system. This makes the playing field far more equal. Sure, there will be the lucky players and those who are unlucky. BioWare, in time, will provide ways for helping those who are left behind to catch up. This is by far more ideal than what we had before, where many never even had a chance at better gear due to the RNG nature of finding a quality group or guild who would help newcomers get top tier gear. This system is by far more equal.

[keimox]

Incorrect. There was more inequality under the old system than there will be with the new system. This makes the playing field far more equal. Sure, there will be the lucky players and those who are unlucky. BioWare, in time, will provide ways for helping those who are left behind to catch up. This is by far more ideal than what we had before, where many never even had a chance at better gear due to the RNG nature of finding a quality group or guild who would help newcomers get top tier gear. This system is by far more equal.

 

Well that "in time" is just too late. They would have been made those kind of system in place BEFORE launching RNG gearing.

There was no RNG involved in finding a guild of your needs or for your play style. You just had to little bit of work to find that right one. And when you finally found one, you just had to make sure you can keep up with that group. Wiping countless hours for nim bosses or farming those hm bosses for gear for WHOLE GROUP.

 

Not a single guild group I played with left one person not get gear. Everyone got one piece before they could get second piece and so on. We geared as a group. And if/when we got new group member, if they didn't have enough gear, we geared that person so we could continue with progression.

[DariusCalera]

Incorrect. There was more inequality under the old system than there will be with the new system. This makes the playing field far more equal. Sure, there will be the lucky players and those who are unlucky. BioWare, in time, will provide ways for helping those who are left behind to catch up. This is by far more ideal than what we had before, where many never even had a chance at better gear due to the RNG nature of finding a quality group or guild who would help newcomers get top tier gear. This system is by far more equal.

 

As long as a a person was willing to put in the work, there was no gear that was unavailable to them in the old system. Even if they were unlucky with drops from the bosses, if they ran with a guild it was certain that they would get the piece that they needed eventually. A good guild would help out their players.

 

If a player can't, or won't, put in the effort to find a good guild then that's on them and they should not be rewarded for it.

 

Under this new system, there is no helping out new players or guild mates simply because of the rng factor and any system that BW might introduce to lessen the rng aspect should, honestly, already be in place.

 

The rng crate thing already failed spectacularly in the past and to reintroduce it, and make it even worse, shows that the devs only did this to extend the grind and not to actually help out any players with their gearing.

[Khevar]

Incorrect. There was more inequality under the old system than there will be with the new system. This makes the playing field far more equal.

If equality were the actual goal of the system, it would not have the RNG nature of the gear drops.

 

By it's very nature, it's not possible to have equality.

 

Had GC been released with token drops, or endgame currency, or something similar, we would not be having this discussion right now.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Khevar

[DarthWoad]

Incorrect. There was more inequality under the old system than there will be with the new system. This makes the playing field far more equal. Sure, there will be the lucky players and those who are unlucky. BioWare, in time, will provide ways for helping those who are left behind to catch up. This is by far more ideal than what we had before, where many never even had a chance at better gear due to the RNG nature of finding a quality group or guild who would help newcomers get top tier gear. This system is by far more equal.

 

Wrong.

 

Why are you so obsessed with making the playing field "more equal"? Everyone had the chance to get those things, they just gotta use their brains and put time into working to get those things.

 

Why should we wait for people to catch up? Some people play more than others, that's a fact. In fact, why don't we give everyone ALL achievements unlocked, as it saves those newcomers from spending time working towards something? Ridiculous right? Well that's the kind of thing you're saying.

 

Why should everyone have to suffer just because some newcomers can't find a good guild or good raid group....that's why you play the game. Don't expect people to instantly find a great raid group. In time, people do find good groups.

 

You honestly have no idea what you're takling about, Aowin.

Edited December 10, 2016 by DarthWoad

[gabigool]

BioWare, in time, will provide ways for helping those who are left behind to catch up.

 

How is having this situation even existing better than simply having it not happen?

 

 

This is by far more ideal than what we had before, where many never even had a chance at better gear due to the RNG nature of finding a quality group or guild who would help newcomers get top tier gear. This system is by far more equal.

 

First of all, there was nothing "RNG" about getting gear before. Nice try. A player putting themselves in a situation where they had to rely on random rolls to win gear was a player that chose to be in that situation. Seeing as I chose not to be in that situation, I find it hard to empathize with the other point of view.

 

If this was an epidemic, there certainly should have been people beating down your door to join the guild you created to right this horrible wrong.

 

Secondly - as you have been doing during the entirety of this thread, you're still confusing CXP with RNG to pretend you have a point.

 

You like CXP? Fine. But it is a separate topic than RNG. When people point out flaws with RNG you strawman around CXP.

 

Defend this statement: "A CXP system with RNG is better than a CXP system without it". You haven't. Not once. Yet the point of this thread is to supposedly justify RNG. Do it.

 

You understand that most of us are replying to you for fun, not because we think there is a shred of sense in a thing you've said. Even so, give it a go.

[keimox]

If equality were the actual goal of the system, it would not have the RNG nature of the gear drops.

 

By it's very nature, it's not possible to have equality.

 

Had GC been released with token drops, or endgame currency, or something similar, we would not be having this discussion right now.

 

Like reputation grinds and their rep vendors. Enough reputation, better stuff to buy from vendor.

[DarthWoad]

I'll try to explain it as simply as I can to everyone.

Previously

You spend time playing the game, you earn those items, such as commendations. Then you can buy the gear that you desire. You can also find a good raiding group by putting the time into making one or finding one, and get gear that way. You know which bosses drop what gear, and so you killl that boss to get that piece of gear. If you're lucky, your raid group lets you have that gear, otherwise you roll on it within your group with 1/16 chance of getting it at most.

 

Now

 

Gear is totally random.

 

The only point I can agree with Aowin is that the new interface makes this content more accessible. That is the only good thing about it. In no way does RNG make it better for newcomers as you seem so obsessed with telling us how better it is for new people. Are you trying to be politically correct or something? That everyone is different and therefore everyone should be equal in game, even if you spend 2 hours a week playing it or 20 hours? Total nonsense tbh.

 

Instead of refining the way gear was obtained, Bioware have changed it completely. People want something to work towards, they want a goal, such as getting that gear. But now it's totally random and those people may never reach that goal. There are LESS options now to get gear than there were before. This is why 99% of the forum disagree with you.

Edited December 10, 2016 by DarthWoad

[Aowin]

While you have somewhat of a point about being too fast, over a week is well and truly enough to gauge how the system is working.

And you really shouldn't add other games into the equation as just about all of them still use an added currency to offset rng from raids/run of losses in pvp, something we had here as well.

Its not guesswork, its not opinion, rng will screw people over. No matter how they tweak it, its going to end in tears.

They Could bump elites to 50 points per, and people will still get royally shafted by this system.

They could tweak it so you were guaranteed the items at certain points, but that then begs the question, why have rng at all?

 

It's also not an opinion that this game allowed players in PvP to be geared the moment they hit the new level cap and getting PvE gear wasn't much harder. I have never played an MMO where the gear progression was virtually non-existent when a new level cap was increased. There was a definite issue with accumulating gear being way too fast in this game compared to MMO norms. It needed to change, especially since newcomers weren't getting the same benefits out of the system as was the case with their veteran counterparts. We can argue whether this was the "right" change, but it's definitely an effective method for equalizing the community.

[DarthWoad]

but it's definitely an effective method for equalizing the community.

 

Actually no it's not. As gear is totally random, some may be luckier than others, therefore no skill is involved in this.

 

I could go AFK and lose every single warzone and ranked up in my command XP and still get more set bonuses than my friend.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

As i was catching up on the posts from the last hour or so i realized. THey're right. You are yet to explain JUST WHY IS RNG PERFECT FOR SWTOR????:eek::eek: let's hear it, Aowin. We all keep telling you, that GC is not the problem here, so stop going back to it. stick to RNG. :D

as for equalizing the field? well, how about i get paid m salary for waking up and spending my day playing swtor or posting on the swtor forums? things that i do for fun as a hobby.

you accuse us of wanting the gear handed to us and kept away from others. that's not the point we're trying to make. i thought it was normal sentiment to want to EARN your gear. you keep insisting that gating gear behind ops was prohibiting people from getting it. well, that's true to a point. NO ONE stopped those people from trying and pugging and learning. the gear on the vendors was always competitive for any regular casual player.

in fact the story mode chapters u can do in blue 208s just as well as in bis 224s, i've done it today just cause i forgot to pick up gear from my bank.

so tell me, what's so wrong with EARNING our gear? 0.o

[Aowin]

Well that "in time" is just too late. They would have been made those kind of system in place BEFORE launching RNG gearing.

There was no RNG involved in finding a guild of your needs or for your play style. You just had to little bit of work to find that right one. And when you finally found one, you just had to make sure you can keep up with that group. Wiping countless hours for nim bosses or farming those hm bosses for gear for WHOLE GROUP.

 

Not a single guild group I played with left one person not get gear. Everyone got one piece before they could get second piece and so on. We geared as a group. And if/when we got new group member, if they didn't have enough gear, we geared that person so we could continue with progression.

 

BioWare isn't omnipotent. This was a massive overhaul of gear progression. Like any reasonable development studio, they will use trial and error tactics to gauge results and tweak from there. There was no way BioWare could create the perfect system without first testing the results, getting metrics, and getting feedback.

 

Finding good guilds or raid groups was RNG. Most guilds in MMOs are terrible. They have no structure. They have no purpose. They are glorified chat rooms and nothing else. The actual quality guilds are few and far between and aren't always easy to get into.

 

I ran a top tier PvP guild for years and we didn't just invite anyone into the group. We first had to test them and they also had to go through a rigorous application process in order for us to determine whether the player was a good fit or not. Most players generally are not, thus when the best guilds are so exclusive you create a scenario where many players simply don't have the same opportunities for progression.

[DarthWoad]

As i was catching up on the posts from the last hour or so i realized. THey're right. You are yet to explain JUST WHY IS RNG PERFECT FOR SWTOR????:eek::eek: let's hear it, Aowin. We all keep telling you, that GC is not the problem here, so stop going back to it. stick to RNG. :D

as for equalizing the field? well, how about i get paid m salary for waking up and spending my day playing swtor or posting on the swtor forums? things that i do for fun as a hobby.

you accuse us of wanting the gear handed to us and kept away from others. that's not the point we're trying to make. i thought it was normal sentiment to want to EARN your gear. you keep insisting that gating gear behind ops was prohibiting people from getting it. well, that's true to a point. NO ONE stopped those people from trying and pugging and learning. the gear on the vendors was always competitive for any regular casual player.

in fact the story mode chapters u can do in blue 208s just as well as in bis 224s, i've done it today just cause i forgot to pick up gear from my bank.

so tell me, what's so wrong with EARNING our gear? 0.o

 

I think he blocked me. Wonder why