MadDutchman Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 the issue with buzz droids is range, they are lacking in that department. If they are deployed into an area where they cannot swarm well, especially if caught in hallways or doorways, then they are essentially just cannon fodder. Except buzz droids are known for using ducts/vents girders etc. in order to sneak up on and/or attack their foes. It is highly unlikely you'll just find a pack of them conveniently sitting in a hallway just waiting to get shot. Far more liley you'll be running down a hallway when a group of them drops onto the mandos heads from vents or overhead girders. A quick and rather embarrassing death awaits many a mando. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Except buzz droids are known for using ducts/vents girders etc. in order to sneak up on and/or attack their foes. It is highly unlikely you'll just find a pack of them conveniently sitting in a hallway just waiting to get shot. Far more liley you'll be running down a hallway when a group of them drops onto the mandos heads from vents or overhead girders. A quick and rather embarrassing death awaits many a mando. Pretty much, in fact the suggestion that the buzz droid wouldn't work in enclosed spaces makes no sense when you consider that ranged weapons are the ones that are weak in closed spaces. If the Buzz Droids even managed to hide on the inside wall near a door, the moment the Mandalorians stepped through a swarm of them could be on top of the unit of soldiers. Then there is the issue with friendly fire if they tried to shoot the droids off their comrades etc... That said, I do think they'll lose a lot of buzz droids, and it would take a lot of them to kill a few Mandalorians but overall they could cause havoc with the Mandalorians' ability to move through the station. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDutchman Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Then there is the issue with friendly fire if they tried to shoot the droids off their comrades etc... This gave me a wonderful visual lol "hold you fire you're not helping here!' "I agree, bad idea" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karadron Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Oh I'm not surprised those discussions have come up lol, but this is right in the rule book, which I have been following. I can work with rule changes, but we all need to be on the same page. Why would my units be depending on the easily (relatively) destroyable YAIC systems on the Singularities when I got a perfectly good one on Myrkr itself? Disruption is unlikely. Also, jammers don't effect sensors, they are totally different pieces of equipment despite both having "jammer" in their name (CheaterLL had a good post on this in the last discussion) Commando Droids have YAIC uplinks, no loss of communication, jamming ineffective A VHK-2 would have little difficulty dispatching even groups of your Warriors. Their small arms will be practically useless against their shields and grenades are ineffective against a rapidly moving targets. the Heavies will be more effective with their rocket launchers but the heavy equipment will leave them vulnerable to the highly mobile commando droids and buzz droids. I have a wealth of data from fighting your forces on Dathomir, however your troops would not have been able to communicate their experience. You are going in practically blind against my units. Tractor beams will have minimal effect. There are too many fighters for them to be effective there and a tractor lock won't prevent the Pocket Carriers from deploying the commando droids. I'm aware of the Vibre's ion cannons, but indirect fire will be ineffective through the hull and resistive circuits. Only a direct shot will be effective, leaving it vulnerable to return fire. Why on earth would I put the opening in the planetary shield overtop of all my sensitive stuff? That'd be stupid. Fire that prow cannon and you might fry a few olbio trees. Let incoming ships fly a little farther (I mean its Star Wars, atmospheric flight is magically fast...) Then why would they even use the Singularities for the YAIC? If anything it's for strain and the yammosk aren't capable of efficiently communicating to so many different minds, even then a transfer of any kind would have it's own sets of problems, like having to switch main commanders in the midst of a battle. I believe that you're highly overblowing the capability of the VHK-2. First of directional shielding can be very easily countered, just get around the shield. 1 Grenade and a blaster rifle is all that's needed. Shoot a bit, throw grenade, shoot some more. Even better keep moving or have more than 1 blaster rifle. It's firepower is also locked to a frontal cone which will severely hamper it if it needs to fire on enemies hitting it's rear. (Same goes for all VHK models for the most part. It's not like fighters will be that much of a problem with all the Tartans, PTDs, and fighters (like E-wing, IF-11, and TIE Defenders) that the MV can deploy. Plus after all Defenders were commonly modified with tractor beams just to disrupt starfighters. I'm not sure what you're trying to say about Vibres. But Ion Cannon fire into a droid filled hangar would be highly effective. The ship is also specifically purposed for blowing holes in things to land boarders, and given what it sounds like just popping a hole would knock out a number of NF forces inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karadron Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Pretty much, in fact the suggestion that the buzz droid wouldn't work in enclosed spaces makes no sense when you consider that ranged weapons are the ones that are weak in closed spaces. If the Buzz Droids even managed to hide on the inside wall near a door, the moment the Mandalorians stepped through a swarm of them could be on top of the unit of soldiers. Then there is the issue with friendly fire if they tried to shoot the droids off their comrades etc... That said, I do think they'll lose a lot of buzz droids, and it would take a lot of them to kill a few Mandalorians but overall they could cause havoc with the Mandalorians' ability to move through the station. Well my warriors also come with vibroblades, and wrist gauntlet vibroblade too. Melee no problem. Plus what type of elite troop just opens a door without thinking an enemy could be on the other side, because I want to fight them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarons Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 the issue with buzz droids is range, they are lacking in that department. If they are deployed into an area where they cannot swarm well, especially if caught in hallways or doorways, then they are essentially just cannon fodder. Yea but no one will deploy them into a area where they won't be effective.Small in closes spaces and hallways are key to success with the buzz droid.Keeping them in Vents and in the walls buying their time would rekt even your best units.If used during the right time and I see no reason why they wouldn't be. When it comes to unit to unit fighting I give the edge to MV but the NF has numbers if they can bring them to bear.K you don't have the units to lose on the station compared to Dutch.Dutch is making units like a mad man planet side waiting for you to get through that shield.If you lose to many units here you won't have enough for the ground invasion and will have to wait for reinforcement which gives dutch to make more units and maybe a few reinforcements.Dutch just has to slow you done while you need a win. If the worst come to worst the NF can just blow the station with all your units on board and hurt your forces and as I said earlier make you wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Well my warriors also come with vibroblades, and wrist gauntlet vibroblade too. Melee no problem. Plus what type of elite troop just opens a door without thinking an enemy could be on the other side, because I want to fight them. As if they'd expect the enemy to be on the ceiling and top of the doorframe/clinging to the walls. Plus, at first your troops wouldn't have time to thoroughly explore every area they enter or they'd never get anywhere. Either they're cowards and wimps who creep along at a snail's pace or they move like actual soldiers. Once the first few ambushes get sprung sure they'll learn but *no one* expects what I described. As much as I talk them up, they aren't actually gods That said, yeah I know their melee abilities so like I said, it'd take a lot of droids to kill each Mandalorian. I never said they'd kill a lot of Mandalorians but their efforts would make the Mandalorian much more cautious (as you just evidenced by your reaction) allowing the NF droids a chance to make moving through the station *massively* more difficult. Essentially your attack relies on hitting hard and fast with a lot of troops, and the Buzz droid create an obstacle that will slow your people down and start to give the NF the initiative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karadron Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 As if they'd expect the enemy to be on the ceiling and top of the doorframe/clinging to the walls. Plus, at first your troops wouldn't have time to thoroughly explore every area they enter or they'd never get anywhere. Either they're cowards and wimps who creep along at a snail's pace or they move like actual soldiers. Once the first few ambushes get sprung sure they'll learn but *no one* expects what I described. As much as I talk them up, they aren't actually gods That said, yeah I know their melee abilities so like I said, it'd take a lot of droids to kill each Mandalorian. I never said they'd kill a lot of Mandalorians but their efforts would make the Mandalorian much more cautious (as you just evidenced by your reaction) allowing the NF droids a chance to make moving through the station *massively* more difficult. Essentially your attack relies on hitting hard and fast with a lot of troops, and the Buzz droid create an obstacle that will slow your people down and start to give the NF the initiative. At the same time I can still field reserve troops, and have the potential to land just where I want given the Vibres capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDutchman Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Then why would they even use the Singularities for the YAIC? If anything it's for strain and the yammosk aren't capable of efficiently communicating to so many different minds, even then a transfer of any kind would have it's own sets of problems, like having to switch main commanders in the midst of a battle. I believe that you're highly overblowing the capability of the VHK-2. First of directional shielding can be very easily countered, just get around the shield. 1 Grenade and a blaster rifle is all that's needed. Shoot a bit, throw grenade, shoot some more. Even better keep moving or have more than 1 blaster rifle. It's firepower is also locked to a frontal cone which will severely hamper it if it needs to fire on enemies hitting it's rear. (Same goes for all VHK models for the most part. It's not like fighters will be that much of a problem with all the Tartans, PTDs, and fighters (like E-wing, IF-11, and TIE Defenders) that the MV can deploy. Plus after all Defenders were commonly modified with tractor beams just to disrupt starfighters. I'm not sure what you're trying to say about Vibres. But Ion Cannon fire into a droid filled hangar would be highly effective. The ship is also specifically purposed for blowing holes in things to land boarders, and given what it sounds like just popping a hole would knock out a number of NF forces inside. They are on the Singularities so I can have the benefits on the move. A single yammosk can coordinate fleets far bigger than what I have present, won't be any strain at all. If you can get around the shield sure. But there isn't room to do that in a corridor and in larger areas they attack in a wedge formation, overlapping their shields to cover their flanks. Attacking from behind can be effective, but you need to get behind and surprise it, otherwise it'll just shift the shield to protect it's ***. As for grenades, remember the Onderon arc on clone wars where they teach them how to slowly roll grenades in order to get inside a droideka's shield? These shields are based on the same technology, except VHKs don't sit there waiting for you to lob it through their shield. Grenade will just bounce off, or explode prematurely, doing little to no damage to the VHK. You would need exceptional timing and luck to get grenades to be effective. It might happen a few times, not enough to be a viable strategy. Tartans are good but there is a limit to how much they can do, hitting the exceptionally maneuverable fighters will be really hard, even for them. A lot of them will still make it through to their targets. Trying to get in close with them or your own fighters also brings them into range of the commando droids in space, which will happily unload their missiles at them. You had even more of these anti-fighter weapons in the last battle but you only destroyed ~1/3 of the Rippers I'm not questioning the fact a direct shot from an ion cannon will be effective, I'm simply pointing out that in order to have LOS on the inside of the hanger, my droids also have LOS on the Vibre. And the plasma cannons are designed for long range anti-vehicle. You also don't know any of this, as these forces have no experience fighting my troops. Also, the longer you sit outside the station shooting in, the more chances I have to destroy the Vibre before it can dock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarons Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 At the same time I can still field reserve troops, and have the potential to land just where I want given the Vibres capabilities. K you don't have endless units here and you lose a bit during the space battle.If you lose even close to 2/3 of your spaces on the station which I personally expect you will lose.If you commit to many reinforcement to the station you will have to wait to bring more units from Mandalore. Which allow Dutch to create more units and prepare a response for your space force.Not to mention you still have to get through that shield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 Still more debate is needed. Though, I will say a few things to help push it along: - While the VHK shields are impressive, they still draw energy and their energy can only go so far... - Rockets and grenades have both been shown to take out shielded or heavily armored opponents -- Must be a relatively strong explosive, or shield/armor weakened - A ship of the Vibre's size, while not immortal to ground fire, does have decent enough defenses to do as described - While the maximum amount of troops are on the station for the NF, that is not to say that it is crammed with NF units everywhere. It is still a very, very large station. The amount of NF forces was merely the maximum allowed to emergency board during the battle, in theory, it could have held more. - Anyone want to compare weapons, armor, and tactics? - Buzz droids, when swarming, are a much larger threat than Karadron may realize. They are able to tear apart star fighters and peel off their armor plating. I worry for some of those Mandalorian's... They also are capable of going between the armor at the joints due to their small limbs. - Which side has the more skilled warriors, when taking away tech? (cue rage war) - What locations will the MV be drilling into? - How will the rapid decompression from said holes be dealt with by the NF if the MV does not plug them? - How long will it take NF forces to sabotage systems if they must? - How long would it take MV forces to get to vital systems? Can they do it before they are sabotaged? - Anything from the ground for the NF? I could go on and on, but these should be fine for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karadron Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 (edited) They are on the Singularities so I can have the benefits on the move. A single yammosk can coordinate fleets far bigger than what I have present, won't be any strain at all. If you can get around the shield sure. But there isn't room to do that in a corridor and in larger areas they attack in a wedge formation, overlapping their shields to cover their flanks. Attacking from behind can be effective, but you need to get behind and surprise it, otherwise it'll just shift the shield to protect it's ***. As for grenades, remember the Onderon arc on clone wars where they teach them how to slowly roll grenades in order to get inside a droideka's shield? These shields are based on the same technology, except VHKs don't sit there waiting for you to lob it through their shield. Grenade will just bounce off, or explode prematurely, doing little to no damage to the VHK. You would need exceptional timing and luck to get grenades to be effective. It might happen a few times, not enough to be a viable strategy. Tartans are good but there is a limit to how much they can do, hitting the exceptionally maneuverable fighters will be really hard, even for them. A lot of them will still make it through to their targets. Trying to get in close with them or your own fighters also brings them into range of the commando droids in space, which will happily unload their missiles at them. You had even more of these anti-fighter weapons in the last battle but you only destroyed ~1/3 of the Rippers I'm not questioning the fact a direct shot from an ion cannon will be effective, I'm simply pointing out that in order to have LOS on the inside of the hanger, my droids also have LOS on the Vibre. And the plasma cannons are designed for long range anti-vehicle. You also don't know any of this, as these forces have no experience fighting my troops. Also, the longer you sit outside the station shooting in, the more chances I have to destroy the Vibre before it can dock Except Yammosk are entirely in Legends seen working naval forces only, not utilized to organize tens of thousands of droids as well. Individual troop movements will help to mess with it's coordination essentially fighting multiple battles at once instead of a singular one. My troops do have a large number of ways to maneuver as well, jetpacks and grappling hooks: Mandalorian Warrior Weapon: Blaster rifle, pistol, vibroblade, grenades Armor: Mandalorian (Medium): with range-finder, imagery settings, comlink, jetpack, grappling hook and wrist vibroblade. Mandalorian Supercommando Heavy Weapon: Blaster rifle, rocket launcher, grenades, explosives Armor: Mandalorian (Medium): with advanced targeting system, jetpack, wrist mounted missile launchers. They also have a number of other useful tools, imagery settings, and advanced targeting systems in their armors, which can help to bypass those pesky shields or spot things that normal people would miss. Last time my Defenders weren't factored in either. But even then Tartans are fighter killing machines with an advanced targeting computer and fairly heavy weapons. Even then my fighters aren't anything to laugh at either, Y-wings are durable fighter/bombers which can strafe the station or the corvettes, IF-11s are exceptionally heavy hitting fighters, and E-wing have a good combination of speed, durability, and firepower as well as some really nice sensors. Anti-vehicle is still light compared to anti-capital ship. As well the Vibre is built to dish out a lot of damage really fast, especially in localized areas. It wouldn't take long to clear the hangar at all. K you don't have endless units here and you lose a bit during the space battle.If you lose even close to 2/3 of your spaces on the station which I personally expect you will lose.If you commit to many reinforcement to the station you will have to wait to bring more units from Mandalore. Which allow Dutch to create more units and prepare a response for your space force.Not to mention you still have to get through that shield. Except he would have to find a way to deploy them to the station without lowering the planetary shields. And if those shields go down it's over for that generator I'd also like to point out that this station was used as a trading depot so finding maps or schematics wouldn't be overly difficult before hand, those merchants need to find a place to offload their goods, rest, eat, shop. Knowing where they want to go won't be all that difficult especially given the Vibres capabilities. The MV could literally just drop their troops in the control room, engines, reactor, and other key points and just defend. Edited January 7, 2017 by karadron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDutchman Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Except he would have to find a way to deploy them to the station without lowering the planetary shields. And if those shields go down it's over for that generator I'd also like to point out that this station was used as a trading depot so finding maps or schematics wouldn't be overly difficult before hand, those merchants need to find a place to offload their goods, rest, eat, shop. Knowing where they want to go won't be all that difficult especially given the Vibres capabilities. The MV could literally just drop their troops in the control room, engines, reactor, and other key points and just defend. I already addressed the shield issue, you can't hit the generator from the opening, it would require Imperial levels of stupidity to leave such a vulnerability. No it is not a trading station. That is a totally different station not even in the area (which you kindly ignored). It is a dedicated military installation with military security and had a cloaking field active prior to all of this. You are going in with only what your sensors can give you, with no prior knowledge. Critical systems like control rooms and stuff aren't going to be placed on the outside of the station so you can just board into them. You might be able to get into the engine nacelles or reactor from the outside, but the actual engineering area is going to be buried well below armour and decks. The main reactor is certianly going to be buried deep in the station. The only areas you can access from the outside are the hangers and non critical rooms/corridors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDutchman Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 - How will the rapid decompression from said holes be dealt with by the NF if the MV does not plug them? - How long will it take NF forces to sabotage systems if they must? - How long would it take MV forces to get to vital systems? Can they do it before they are sabotaged? I could go on and on, but these should be fine for now. My units are all droids so decompressed areas will actually be to their advantage. All it would take is for a small gap in the pressure seal of the mandos to cause their blood to boil. Intentional decompression in areas, especially if a group was recently hit by buzz droids leaving lots of nice punctures in those seals will be a useful tactic. Breaking stuff is easy, and they'll start before the boarding even begins. They'll have no trouble finishing before they can even get to the engineering areas, let alone get enough troops there to overwhelm the defenders. On top of the disruption caused by the buzz droids, the VHK-2s will be highly effective at defending choke points like corridors and doorways, as there won't be room for MV forces to flank them getting around their shield. They'll be forced to attempt to overwhelm the shield, which won't be easy, especially while the VHK is unloading with its rotary cannon, which are excellent at dealing with infantry and suppression. This will make getting through to sensitive areas both slow and painful. Also, due to the weapon stabilizer perk, my droids will also be able to fire accurately at the mandos even while they are moving around. If the mandos decide they want to compete with the commando droids using their jetpacks/grappling hooks, they will suffer from accuracy falloff, whereas the commando droids will not. Same goes for the VHKs, they can charge down a corridor towards troops without losing accuracy, while making itself a more difficult target, especially for explosive weaponry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karadron Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I already addressed the shield issue, you can't hit the generator from the opening, it would require Imperial levels of stupidity to leave such a vulnerability. No it is not a trading station. That is a totally different station not even in the area (which you kindly ignored). It is a dedicated military installation with military security and had a cloaking field active prior to all of this. You are going in with only what your sensors can give you, with no prior knowledge. Critical systems like control rooms and stuff aren't going to be placed on the outside of the station so you can just board into them. You might be able to get into the engine nacelles or reactor from the outside, but the actual engineering area is going to be buried well below armour and decks. The main reactor is certianly going to be buried deep in the station. The only areas you can access from the outside are the hangers and non critical rooms/corridors Yet the Imperials managed to take over the galaxy. And even if the generator isn't in view of the fleet's weaponry other NF buildings could well be, especially the disabled weapons, not to mention the power that a prow cannon shot could do. Well that trade station is sitting wide open and available since nothing was dispatched to defend it, the MV fleet could easily deal with it at the same time. I highly doubt that all main rooms are tucked into the interior of the station, especially the control room. I mean all good bridges have a nice big window. As well engineering will be close to the engines, I mean the engineers have to keep those working so they can move the station in an emergency. My units are all droids so decompressed areas will actually be to their advantage. All it would take is for a small gap in the pressure seal of the mandos to cause their blood to boil. Intentional decompression in areas, especially if a group was recently hit by buzz droids leaving lots of nice punctures in those seals will be a useful tactic. Breaking stuff is easy, and they'll start before the boarding even begins. They'll have no trouble finishing before they can even get to the engineering areas, let alone get enough troops there to overwhelm the defenders. On top of the disruption caused by the buzz droids, the VHK-2s will be highly effective at defending choke points like corridors and doorways, as there won't be room for MV forces to flank them getting around their shield. They'll be forced to attempt to overwhelm the shield, which won't be easy, especially while the VHK is unloading with its rotary cannon, which are excellent at dealing with infantry and suppression. This will make getting through to sensitive areas both slow and painful. Also, due to the weapon stabilizer perk, my droids will also be able to fire accurately at the mandos even while they are moving around. If the mandos decide they want to compete with the commando droids using their jetpacks/grappling hooks, they will suffer from accuracy falloff, whereas the commando droids will not. Same goes for the VHKs, they can charge down a corridor towards troops without losing accuracy, while making itself a more difficult target, especially for explosive weaponry. On the contrary a random decompression event would likely yank them into space, as well as anything that isn't prepared for it. While they wouldn't necessarily be destroyed they would not be in a position to influence the outcome of the station battle. The VHKs seem especially weak in the regards to staying power if this would happen. Breaking stuff is only easy if you are initial prepared, keeping in mind that most of these units were offloaded in an emergency setting whilst a battle was going on, frankly I'm surprised that there were zero casualties while that was occurring. Overloading shields is significantly easier when power is also being used to fire a high power weapon like that. Even then my troops are buffed my a perk giving them a boost with using the environment, coupled with their skills (especially the Heavies). Even then it's a matter of picking fights smart, which they can do because of the MV perk that increases base troop tactical knowledge. It's not like the station doesn't have ways around those doorways or corridors. Moving targets are still hard targets to deal with, especially given the fairly large number of ways my troops can move, as well as perks buffing movement as well as deceptive movement. Which could easily turn into the MV troops drawing first blood in a number of encounters. The Heavies will not have a difficult time with moving targets either given their advanced targeting system which help to counter the movement of large forces. At the same time I feel that the Warriors imagery settings could go long ways to protecting the troops against buzz droid swarms, as it will give them access to more frequencies of view, like infared which will help find those heat generating droids. Also let's play with numbers: 50,000 Heavy vs 12000 VHK-2, 5,000 VHK-3, 2250 VHK-Command. Then keep in mind the fact that the Heavies have better maneuverability, especially in more open areas especially in the hangars, which will likely have been cleared by the VIbres, but also in other areas that present a more open area, like engine or reactor rooms. Also note that the Heavies will also have maneuverability advantages and individual tactical training and organic unpredictability. As well their explosives training should allow them to disarm any potential unwanted surprises that they come across. Then throw in the light armor and directional shields of the VHK-2 and the Heavies can easily out maneuver and flank them. As well their heavy ordinance, skill, and maneuverability will also prove a significant help in dealing with the larger variants of the droid as well. I would also like to posit that the "Yammosk Artificial Intelligence Cores", which offer the way in which the NF communicates, will indeed be jammable either by the use of normal technology or by the use of the gravity wells from the Inquisitors if it is based of actual yammosks, but no real yammosk exists within the faction itself. Furthermore the ASRs provide an excellent way of helping to map the station with their scanners, while it may not be a complete map they will be more than capable of providing directional support. Also the majority of NF troops will have just been offloaded on the ship meaning that they will be having to rush to their assigned locations and could offer easy prey to a situation of poor battle readiness, which is already nerfed by my commanders perk. This out of position could help to keep them from popping their sabotage as the Mandalorian troops could already be their due to their maneuverability buffs. Even then the base skill the MV troops exceeds that of the NF and since the station will not be absolutely crawling with NF units every step of the way it will make things significantly easier on MV especially when considering their numbers against the base starting troops. Also I'd like to see a Commando droid tank a capital ship grade turbolaser shot. Throwing this out there too. The MV commander's positioning skill could result in the VIbres having a firing arch into the hangers in which the NF hangar defense troops cannot return fire. Also the MV troops will be landing in a number of locations of the station which will mean that in order to counter them the NF forces will have to spread out through the station in which case the MV could easily land troops behind enemy lines. As well as giving the MV another boost to their mobility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDutchman Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Yet the Imperials managed to take over the galaxy. And even if the generator isn't in view of the fleet's weaponry other NF buildings could well be, especially the disabled weapons, not to mention the power that a prow cannon shot could do. Well that trade station is sitting wide open and available since nothing was dispatched to defend it, the MV fleet could easily deal with it at the same time. I highly doubt that all main rooms are tucked into the interior of the station, especially the control room. I mean all good bridges have a nice big window. As well engineering will be close to the engines, I mean the engineers have to keep those working so they can move the station in an emergency. On the contrary a random decompression event would likely yank them into space, as well as anything that isn't prepared for it. While they wouldn't necessarily be destroyed they would not be in a position to influence the outcome of the station battle. The VHKs seem especially weak in the regards to staying power if this would happen. Breaking stuff is only easy if you are initial prepared, keeping in mind that most of these units were offloaded in an emergency setting whilst a battle was going on, frankly I'm surprised that there were zero casualties while that was occurring. Overloading shields is significantly easier when power is also being used to fire a high power weapon like that. Even then my troops are buffed my a perk giving them a boost with using the environment, coupled with their skills (especially the Heavies). Even then it's a matter of picking fights smart, which they can do because of the MV perk that increases base troop tactical knowledge. It's not like the station doesn't have ways around those doorways or corridors. Moving targets are still hard targets to deal with, especially given the fairly large number of ways my troops can move, as well as perks buffing movement as well as deceptive movement. Which could easily turn into the MV troops drawing first blood in a number of encounters. The Heavies will not have a difficult time with moving targets either given their advanced targeting system which help to counter the movement of large forces. At the same time I feel that the Warriors imagery settings could go long ways to protecting the troops against buzz droid swarms, as it will give them access to more frequencies of view, like infared which will help find those heat generating droids. Also let's play with numbers: 50,000 Heavy vs 12000 VHK-2, 5,000 VHK-3, 2250 VHK-Command. Then keep in mind the fact that the Heavies have better maneuverability, especially in more open areas especially in the hangars, which will likely have been cleared by the VIbres, but also in other areas that present a more open area, like engine or reactor rooms. Also note that the Heavies will also have maneuverability advantages and individual tactical training and organic unpredictability. As well their explosives training should allow them to disarm any potential unwanted surprises that they come across. Then throw in the light armor and directional shields of the VHK-2 and the Heavies can easily out maneuver and flank them. As well their heavy ordinance, skill, and maneuverability will also prove a significant help in dealing with the larger variants of the droid as well. I would also like to posit that the "Yammosk Artificial Intelligence Cores", which offer the way in which the NF communicates, will indeed be jammable either by the use of normal technology or by the use of the gravity wells from the Inquisitors if it is based of actual yammosks, but no real yammosk exists within the faction itself. Furthermore the ASRs provide an excellent way of helping to map the station with their scanners, while it may not be a complete map they will be more than capable of providing directional support. Also the majority of NF troops will have just been offloaded on the ship meaning that they will be having to rush to their assigned locations and could offer easy prey to a situation of poor battle readiness, which is already nerfed by my commanders perk. This out of position could help to keep them from popping their sabotage as the Mandalorian troops could already be their due to their maneuverability buffs. Even then the base skill the MV troops exceeds that of the NF and since the station will not be absolutely crawling with NF units every step of the way it will make things significantly easier on MV especially when considering their numbers against the base starting troops. Also I'd like to see a Commando droid tank a capital ship grade turbolaser shot. Throwing this out there too. The MV commander's positioning skill could result in the VIbres having a firing arch into the hangers in which the NF hangar defense troops cannot return fire. Also the MV troops will be landing in a number of locations of the station which will mean that in order to counter them the NF forces will have to spread out through the station in which case the MV could easily land troops behind enemy lines. As well as giving the MV another boost to their mobility. No, all the important stuff is in the area under where the battle is taking place. Those anti-orbital guns wouldn't have been able to fire at your ships otherwise. And it's hardly alone, that is where the remnants of my fleet would have gone (minus the fighters and pocket carriers of course). You could probably take it but it would hardly be a cake walk and it would require diversion of resources and attention away from the main battle. The big windowed bridges are there entirely for movie aesthetic, they are stupid as you are relying on sensors etc. for navigation anyway. Not to mention this is a control center, not a bridge. Engineering sections are large and can service many different areas. They don't even need to be in all the same area. Access to engine area is possible, though for obvious reasons this would some of the most heavily armoured parts of the station. Hyperdrives also do not need to be on the outside of the ship like sublight engines do, making accessing it difficult for you. random decompression? a vibre moving to cut through the hull would hardly go unnoticed by those inside. VHKs have some very serious claws, they could easily anchor themselves in place even if they were near a breach, which is unlikely since they are going to positioned deeper in the station near choke points and sensitive systems. Commando drids won't give a hoot if they are pulled outside, they can just fly back in, or take the opportunity to attack the Vibre from behind, utilizing it's plasma cutter to cut at sensitive systems. Only the VHKs were part of the emergency boarding, all the commando droids and buzz droids have been there since the beginning of the match and are well prepared for your boarding and to perform sabotage as needed. Overloading shields while that weapon is pumping you full of said energy is even harder. And even if you were to find a corridor to get around them, you will be watched the whole way and countered easily. Getting accurate scans of the station on the fly and as needed will be very difficult. A limitation I do not have and will exploit. So your troops are going to wander around scanning every hallway, duct, vent, alcove, closet, bunk bed etc. for hidden threats? How long are you planning to hang around? You know it's rude to impose on someone's hospitality too long Heavies aren't going to be that maneuverable, they are hauling around a lot of weight, and certainly won't be anywhere near as maneuverable as a commando droid. Those 50k heavies also won't be able to be deployed all at once even in the best case scenerio, let alone actually bring their firepower to bear where needed considering interference by buzz droids and commando droids. And advanced targeting systems don't make your arms any more stable, its not a matter of visually tracking them, its a matter of actually hitting them. Fancy HUDs aren't going to do too much for you here. And my droids have advanced predictive aiming perk, you can maneuver all you want but I'll be able to hit you just fine, especially since I've encountered them before. Sensors aren't automatic I can see everything tools, penetrating through a huge amount of plating and decks in order to generate a detailed and accurate layout of the station will be time consuming, unrelaible and in deeper areas, likely outright impossible. Also making the claim that the base skill of the MV troops is better is presumptuous at best. These are some of the most advanced droids in existence, buffed by perks and totally unfamiliar to the MV forces. Even if the MV were generally better, they have no idea what they are getting into. And the thought of a capital ship turbolaser being able to hit a commando droid when they were ineffective at hitting something many times its size is simply ridiculous. If it were to hit, sure, but good luck with that. If you are able to position your ships to fire in where I can't fire out, then the droids in the hanger will simply withdraw further into the station. You might get some of them but not very many. it would also delay landing since the only way this would be possible is if you outranged them. With the horde of commando droids (which due to their gravity based propulsion, will be difficult to detect, let alone hit) approaching from outside, time is not your ally in this battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDutchman Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 (edited) Also to further expand on the "home field advantage" stuff from earlier, this being a space station it is equipped with many blast door which I control. These are very heavy and would require a great deal of time or ordinance to get through, and the more explosives the MV use to get through these, the less they'll have on hand against the defenders, requiring them to backtrack to acquire more munitions, further delaying their expansion through the station, and should the Vibres be compromised by buzz droids or commando droids etc. it could limit their supplies. In the event that the MV troops start spreading out, the entire station's atmosphere can be vented into space, minus a handful of barracks areas for the few organic crew aboard. In this event, even minor damage will prove to be fatal. EDIT: Mandalorian armour is also not meant for protracted operations in vacuum, and will have a limited air supply. If they take to long, they could have problems there too. EDIT2: And if I'm forced out of the control center, I will of course be sure to blow it up before I leave Edited January 7, 2017 by MadDutchman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 As a note, after reviewing the types of troops in this battle the Mandalorians certainly *do* have the better training and experience here. That said my opinions are as follows: - K underestimates the ability of the NF to slow his troop's movements. Also, the NF does have much better intelligence on the MV's movements (buzz droids, internal sensors etc...) so outflanking/maneuvering will be very difficult. - Dutch underestimates the MV's ability to penetrate the station at so many different points that they can push through to the deeper levels quickly and take unexpected paths. - The NF has Buzz Droids which were designed for sabotage, so scrapping key systems is very possible for them. - The Control Center may not be deep in the station, but secondary control centers (some linked into the main system) could very easily be accessed closer to the surface and help the Mandalorians tie into the systems and wreak havoc, disrupting defensive measures. That's what I have at the moment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDutchman Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 (edited) As a note, after reviewing the types of troops in this battle the Mandalorians certainly *do* have the better training and experience here. That said my opinions are as follows: - K underestimates the ability of the NF to slow his troop's movements. Also, the NF does have much better intelligence on the MV's movements (buzz droids, internal sensors etc...) so outflanking/maneuvering will be very difficult. - Dutch underestimates the MV's ability to penetrate the station at so many different points that they can push through to the deeper levels quickly and take unexpected paths. - The NF has Buzz Droids which were designed for sabotage, so scrapping key systems is very possible for them. - The Control Center may not be deep in the station, but secondary control centers (some linked into the main system) could very easily be accessed closer to the surface and help the Mandalorians tie into the systems and wreak havoc, disrupting defensive measures. That's what I have at the moment... Taking control of a completely foreign system would be difficult at the best of times, and these are warriors, not slicers. and secondary areas could be easily locked out from the central controller, and if that blows, the entire system will be down. Edited January 7, 2017 by MadDutchman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 If no one has anything else to add, I will post the verdict tomorrow, as well as an update on the Dathomir battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karadron Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 No, all the important stuff is in the area under where the battle is taking place. Those anti-orbital guns wouldn't have been able to fire at your ships otherwise. And it's hardly alone, that is where the remnants of my fleet would have gone (minus the fighters and pocket carriers of course). You could probably take it but it would hardly be a cake walk and it would require diversion of resources and attention away from the main battle. The big windowed bridges are there entirely for movie aesthetic, they are stupid as you are relying on sensors etc. for navigation anyway. Not to mention this is a control center, not a bridge. Engineering sections are large and can service many different areas. They don't even need to be in all the same area. Access to engine area is possible, though for obvious reasons this would some of the most heavily armoured parts of the station. Hyperdrives also do not need to be on the outside of the ship like sublight engines do, making accessing it difficult for you. random decompression? a vibre moving to cut through the hull would hardly go unnoticed by those inside. VHKs have some very serious claws, they could easily anchor themselves in place even if they were near a breach, which is unlikely since they are going to positioned deeper in the station near choke points and sensitive systems. Commando drids won't give a hoot if they are pulled outside, they can just fly back in, or take the opportunity to attack the Vibre from behind, utilizing it's plasma cutter to cut at sensitive systems. Only the VHKs were part of the emergency boarding, all the commando droids and buzz droids have been there since the beginning of the match and are well prepared for your boarding and to perform sabotage as needed. Overloading shields while that weapon is pumping you full of said energy is even harder. And even if you were to find a corridor to get around them, you will be watched the whole way and countered easily. Getting accurate scans of the station on the fly and as needed will be very difficult. A limitation I do not have and will exploit. So your troops are going to wander around scanning every hallway, duct, vent, alcove, closet, bunk bed etc. for hidden threats? How long are you planning to hang around? You know it's rude to impose on someone's hospitality too long Heavies aren't going to be that maneuverable, they are hauling around a lot of weight, and certainly won't be anywhere near as maneuverable as a commando droid. Those 50k heavies also won't be able to be deployed all at once even in the best case scenerio, let alone actually bring their firepower to bear where needed considering interference by buzz droids and commando droids. And advanced targeting systems don't make your arms any more stable, its not a matter of visually tracking them, its a matter of actually hitting them. Fancy HUDs aren't going to do too much for you here. And my droids have advanced predictive aiming perk, you can maneuver all you want but I'll be able to hit you just fine, especially since I've encountered them before. Sensors aren't automatic I can see everything tools, penetrating through a huge amount of plating and decks in order to generate a detailed and accurate layout of the station will be time consuming, unrelaible and in deeper areas, likely outright impossible. Also making the claim that the base skill of the MV troops is better is presumptuous at best. These are some of the most advanced droids in existence, buffed by perks and totally unfamiliar to the MV forces. Even if the MV were generally better, they have no idea what they are getting into. And the thought of a capital ship turbolaser being able to hit a commando droid when they were ineffective at hitting something many times its size is simply ridiculous. If it were to hit, sure, but good luck with that. If you are able to position your ships to fire in where I can't fire out, then the droids in the hanger will simply withdraw further into the station. You might get some of them but not very many. it would also delay landing since the only way this would be possible is if you outranged them. With the horde of commando droids (which due to their gravity based propulsion, will be difficult to detect, let alone hit) approaching from outside, time is not your ally in this battle. Good then the Shield Generator will most definitely be targetable then. Nothing that an ASR couldn’t find out safely. Too bad it’s an aesthetic that continued into every aspect of the universe. Plus they do help if your sensors go down, to say things like sensor jammers. I don’t expect the engineering sections to be small, engines of this magnitude require equally nice places to get all fixed up and taken care of. On the other hand size would more than help my troops in their bid to outmaneuver whatever the station throws at them. Random decompression as in my troops calling for support from the fleet once they’re on the station. How about a Harbinger or Providence knocking a hole in the side? Accuracy, coordination, and efficiency being buffed by perks of course. Oh, and a highly skilled commander, who will also be influencing how well the NF is able to provide support. Then the VHK’s will be mostly ineffective as they will either be destroyed in the hangar or forced to defend it before they can be pulled far into the station. Besides these troops the NF has no true frontline troops to bring to play. Only an outnumbered defense force that is made up of some not so durable buzz droids and commando droids which will be countered by the tactics and maneuverability of the MV. Moving isn’t an issue for my faction nor is utilizing terrain for its advantage. Do keep in mind that throwing others off is buffed by perks. The NF can watch but they could easily miss something. It’s not like the ASR will have to fly all that much and scan. It’s a stealth ship with some nice scanners. They did manage to find the NF’s entire base from space after all. My troops are trained and experienced elite military personnel with nice tech that will help to bolster their ability to quick search. Even then it’s more a matter of keeping threats out of arms reach than chasing bogeymen. Even then with the various settings they can just switch and take a look around. It’s also not like Mandalorian helmets don’t have 360 vision settings anyways. So they won’t be getting easily flanked from behind. Maneuverability in equipment is an acquired trait that the Heavies will most definitely have picked up. Even then it’s highly unlikely that the NF will be right where a Vibre blows a hole—at least not without taking a number of the defenders out anyways. Then factor in the fact that the Heavies are Supercommando level troops, which will most definitely help in their skill especially in regards to things like accuracy and using their equipment. And that advanced targeting is most definitely going to be helping them as it will allow them to better hit moving targets than any other unit here. Your advanced droids buffed by perks are dealing with my elite units buffed by perks as well as natural organic advantages over droids. Notably in their ability to operate effectively in this environment and in personal tactical knowledge. The Commando droid comment was more about turbolaser bleed off, which is capable of seriously damaging passing Starfighters than about a direct hit—which would completely vaporize it. Not to mention that they’ll be some of the slowest things out there with the lightest weapons. I also never said anything about the Vibres staying still to fire. Just that they would be able to shoot first because of the significant positioning advantage given due to the commander, a commander whose early career was all about that boarding party as well, he’s going to know how to safely get on board another ship, as well as having planned this boarding action for longer than the NF has had time to prepare its defense. Yeah have fun blowing things up. The Heavies own explosives training will help to counter any attempts like that. But if the NF did render the station inoperable then it’s time to pull out and blow the station to hell with the nice large fleet sitting out there. Even then if the MV boarders discover that the hyperdrive is sabotaged it’s a matter of rigging the station to go and get out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 Battle of Dathomir MV Casualties 30,000 Darras Light Infantry 500 Chameleon Droids 900 Heavy 5,100 Ranger NF Casualties 23 VHK-2 10 VHK-3 4 VHK-Command 50,000 Buzz-P 5,000 Commando Droid 65 Force Destroyer 9 MAVLS 12 MSU 2 MPU 4 MDBU 3 MI/CIU 10,000 Super Buzz Battle Turn Summary Due to no debate concerning it this turn, used variables from the last debate concerning it and updated it with the characters applied skills. While the NF lost a lot of buzz and super buzz droids, they ultimately caused many casualties to the MV. Despite this, the MV are still skilled combatants and each step the NF took cost them commandos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) Myrkr Space Station MV Casualties 70,000 Mandalorians 24,000 Heavy 50 Tartan 10 ASR-1 30 Vibre IF-11: 11,131 VF-30: 2,400 NF Casualties 12,000 VHK-2 5,000 VHK-3 2,250 VHK-Command 16,500 Commando Droid 132,000 Super Buzz Droids 165,000 Buzz-P 20,000 Ripper 6,650 K-DB Wing 999 Pocket Carrier - 999,000 Commando Droids 450 Terrapin-S - 75,000 VHK-2 Battle Summery Ultimately, both sides were pretty even in most categories, with each pulling ahead slightly here and there. One of the prime bits that turned this battle though was numbers, type of troop, organic adaptability, and Faction Mentality/History. While the plan was to sabotage the station so the MV could not use it against them, there were a few variables that delayed this from happening instantly. Some of the factors for this include but are not limited to, no character directly present with authority to do such on a whim, faction being based around scientists, and their democratic style of leadership. The sabotaging did occur, but was unable to be completed due to their hesitation. Due to this, the hyperdrive was only partially disabled due to the MV being able to board near the engine/hyperdrive area. They will not be able to jump for the next turn, but after that it will have been repaired. The other systems however will take multiple turns to fully repair. In regards to the reinforcements, they simply were unable to get through and suffered catastrophic casualties. While the stealth transports against most would be able to easily do this, as has been observed in the past, at this kind of range with the type of ships K has present, they are all too easy to see and target. In regards to the others, there was a lot of firepower that dealt with multiple pocket carriers before they could get their units off into space at a range that they could reach the station. Those which did reach the range and released their units did not survive past it, and didn't get all of their troops out. The Droch nearly made it to the station, but they too were shot out of the sky. The commando's that attempted to fly there suffered stiff resistance and some did make it onto the outside of the station. However, before they could get to an entrance they were zapped by patrolling MV vessels. The Rippers and K-DB faired slightly better, but not much. They managed to hold their own initially but once the corvettes closed and the rest of the MV fighters arrived, they were overwhelmed. They ultimately were unable to protect the transports and troops heading to the station, with the survivors fleeing the system. Edited January 9, 2017 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDutchman Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Attack on Mandalore v2 Fleet: 11 Singularity 630 Keldabe-DB 191 Venator-DB 2000 Lancer-DB 1500 Pocket Carrier 1000 MC30-DB 500 MC30-S 6000 Spike 83750 Ripper 21400 K-DB Wing Admiral Mekael Battlefield Awareness: Many years of experience have given him the ability to maintain awareness of a great many elements in even very large battles, allowing him to react more quickly to changing or surprising circumstances. Naval Tradition: A long family tradition of naval tactics has given Mekael an almost instinctual ability to coordinate large fleets, allowing him to pull off more complex maneuvers. Calm: Mekael’s calm demeanor allows him to stay focused even when threatened, reducing chance of panic or disorganization of those under his command when under attack. Skill Rank Level Star Fighters 5 9 Capital Ships 7 1 Positioning 5 1 Discipline 5 1 Skirmish 5+1 1 Campaign (Space) 3+1 1 Exotic (Space) 2 1 Traits Advanced Guidance Systems: Due to the more advanced AI employed by the Collective, the tracking systems on missiles and torpedoes can hit with more accuracy due to their improved ability to sort out targets from junk and ability to avoid such debris. Superior Simulators: The realism and versatility of Collective fighter and bomber simulators boosts the overall effectiveness of Collective pilots, especially with the non-standard maneuvering capabilities of the ships. Hardpoint Identification and Targeting System: All ships are equipped with upgraded sensors and targeting computers allowing for better identification and targeting of sensitive ship systems, especially on ships encountered before. Gravitational Mastery: Studying the technology behind the Vong dovin basals has not only allowed the Collective to replicate them, but gives a power and efficiency bonus to gravity based technologies, especially inertial compensators, allowing dovin basal equipped fighters to more easily use them to perform high G maneuvers without harming the pilots. Mass Shadow Smoothing: Can use dovin basals to “smooth out” mass distortions caused by gravity well generators, allowing ships/fleets whose combined gravitational energy is equal or greater than an interdictor to ignore its effects. YAIC: The presence of the Yammosk Artificial Intelligence Cores on Myrkr and Singularity Class capital ships significantly improves communication and coordination of commanders, giving all characters a +1 rank bonus to Skirmish and Campaign (both land and space) when it is present in the system. Strategy Initial: Utilize the precise location information provided by the MC30-S that entered the system early in order to hyperspace directly on top of the enemy fleet and space station, smoothing out the gravity of Mandalore or enemy ships as needed. Activate the Singularity's jammer prior to arrival. Position the Singularities so they shield as much of the fleet as possible from the ion cannon on the surface just in case they are crazy enough to fire through their own fleet. Maintain a defensive position with the Singularity with the jammer and surround it with lancers, MC30s and an extra Singularity just in case. Space: Immediately target the space station with the fleet's heavy weaponry and completely destroy it. 60k Rippers, 1k Lancers, 500 MC30-DB and all the Pocket Carriers will immediately strike at the hangers of the enemy fleet as they attempt to launch fighters and destroy any that are already in space. Deploy cluster bombs from MC30s around the hangers to further interfere with launches Utilize the capital ship's dovin basals to strip the shields from the enemy ships and strike them with the K-DB Wings (and rest of the fleet once the station is destroyed) when they are vulnerable Ground Attack: Deploy the Spikes on another suicide bombing run, 2500 for Keldabe, 2500 for Sundari and 1000 for the area between. Targets of opportunity will be planetary ion cannon, base shield, refineries, any HQ that can be identified and any large concentration of military assets. These should be followed at a distance by the remaining Rippers (equipped with additional proton torpedoes), who will strike at any ships that attempt to intercept the Spikes and unload their payloads in strafing runs on any military targets they can see and any refineries that survive the Spike strike, after which they should return to the fleet. Once the ground attack is complete and the station is destroyed, make the jump to Myrkr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarons Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 ohhh crap that wasn't expected at all.Go Dutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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