Possibilty for SWTOR to Go Full Pay-to-Win

[Tsillah]

Okay... it isn't full out being removed, it... it was hyperbole...

 

But the benefits of being a part time or using passes now will be gone and you will barely get anything better than a standard f2p anymore.

 

You need to be more specific about what you mean. F2P could also use these passes so there is no difference there either. Preferred as a status never was much more than F2P and that still doesn't change.

[Tsillah]

Old expansion not this one, extra quickbars higher credit cap... that's it? that's nothing.

 

It's not nothing. Quit exaggerating. Nothing is nothing, this is something. It may not be very much but that's not new in 5.0

[helpmewin]

Yes poor little latin-american and 3-rd world country schoolboiz welcome to real life where if u have money u have everything.

[light_senshi]

In response to the original post and some of the follow up. CXP Boosters are not the same as XP or Valor boosters. Both XP and Valor have a fixed end point that you can't go past. CXP won't have a point that it stops.

[nepochop]

I disagree, the game just isn't free. Free to play, is a way to present things, but we all know that a f2p player can't do everything without paying. And with 5.0 even less. So SWTOR just isn't a free game.

 

But a sub doesn't make a game "pay to win", you're not paying to get more gear or I don't know what, you're paying for full access to the game.

 

We all know that this game wouldn't exist if he was completely free, the sub is a regular thing.

 

Lets be honest this game offers A LOT to the f2p players. You have access to all the planets, all class stories, up to level 50, you can do GSF for free, que qz with a sub etc!! You experience all the flashpoints and stuff! Also, many f2p got a level 60 token and 1st chapter of KOTFE as part of a promotion, so F2P are lvl 60 now too!

 

F2P was given too much in the game, not to mention preffered, thats why they are nerfing this now too.

[nepochop]

The free trial ends at 50, the pref status simply is being removed now in KOTET.

 

F2P got free lvl 60 tokens, so they are not lvl 50 anymore

[nepochop]

As to the CXP boosts, WHO CARES??

 

There is a CXP weekly cap, people will just find a way to farm CXP every day and everyone will reach the cap with or without boost!! LOL yeah the people with a boost will reach cap faster, but what for? Still we will all meet at the weekly cap!!

 

There will surely be a way to kill some mobs in ops or FPS or open world, which will bring lots of CXP and people will farm it, no point of using boosts then.

[Tsillah]

F2P was given too much in the game, not to mention preffered, thats why they are nerfing this now too.

 

It seems to me that people are confusing preferred benefits with benefits from content they actually bought access to. Preferred only has a few unlocks extra than F2P, not a lot more. What gives preferred an advantage mostly is not the preferred status but that at some point they spent real money to unlock expansions. That, however, is not a preferred status benefit but a benefit from unlocking the expansions with real money. Those things should not be confused.

 

The passes had as function that f2p and preferred players had an alternative to paying for a sub to get access to content they wanted. Someone still had to pay real money for them but they could be sold for credits. This apparently did not yield the results BWA was aiming for.

[AllisonLightning]

It seems to me that people are confusing preferred benefits with benefits from content they actually bought access to. Preferred only has a few unlocks extra than F2P, not a lot more. What gives preferred an advantage mostly is not the preferred status but that at some point they spent real money to unlock expansions. That, however, is not a preferred status benefit but a benefit from unlocking the expansions with real money. Those things should not be confused.

 

The passes had as function that f2p and preferred players had an alternative to paying for a sub to get access to content they wanted. Someone still had to pay real money for them but they could be sold for credits. This apparently did not yield the results BWA was aiming for.

 

People also have complete fantasies about what even Preferred players can do. And they're getting desperate because they actually made money from selling the expansions separately to subscription and rather than creating an RNG grind for Preferred (with an Artifact Authorization to equip anything) and give us subs tokens to get the gear we need as we need it, they are inflicting that on us in the hopes people will stay subbed longer.

 

They think they'll get more subs (between the passes and everything else) and with the player decline compared to this time, pre-expansion last year in 3.x's twilight, the game probably can't take it. We won't get more subs because the people who left are a) story people who can't stand the rails grindfest that is KOTFE, b) group people who have been royally frelled so many times it's not funny. KOTFE is the raid equivalent of a straight line of champions, requiring you to stay exactly still and spam the basic attack key every time they glow gold.

 

But of course, the key seems to be give subs more RNG and hell and shut out preferred from content only accessible/unlocked amount accessible with paid passes. I actually have a theory with the pass thing and why we haven't heard anything else. You know how we get people, credit spammers and the like, repeatedly spamming for nerfs and everything else? I think reading these forums have resulted in a kneejerk, 'let's gate things without a pass because that's what's making the subs unhappy and any new restrictions won't have an effect'.

 

Communication is so bad at the moment, they read two sentences in a post and just ran with it. That's why I think the Phase Walk mistake with Assassins/Shadows has been made- because they misread what we're telling them and it leads to disaster.

[nepochop]

It seems to me that people are confusing preferred benefits with benefits from content they actually bought access to. Preferred only has a few unlocks extra than F2P, not a lot more. What gives preferred an advantage mostly is not the preferred status but that at some point they spent real money to unlock expansions. That, however, is not a preferred status benefit but a benefit from unlocking the expansions with real money. Those things should not be confused.

 

The passes had as function that f2p and preferred players had an alternative to paying for a sub to get access to content they wanted. Someone still had to pay real money for them but they could be sold for credits. This apparently did not yield the results BWA was aiming for.

 

The main advantage of preffered was being able to TRADE. That way we had many preff people in guild and the few subs were buying ops passes for them and they were paying back daily by farming credits and trading them back since ops passes cost mostly more than the credit cap. Also dont forget the Refferal link!! Once use you got the bundle with "hide head slot" quickbars etc, so really F2P and Preff had quite a lot in my opinion. I was Preff a long time at start just for buying that bundle for 5,- euro and it was enough for me to greatly enjoy the game.

[nepochop]

 

They think they'll get more subs

 

If there is actually a person at Bioware that thinks that by doing all this they will get more subs then he should be fired right away!!

 

I mean the game has the same content (apart from minor addons) for years, ifs scaled up so that there is at least something to do, people are leaving in masses, people went preffered in since its much more convenient to play as and they now want to make the end game accessable only to subs?

 

That is the most stupidest idea ever!! You dont get any new content, just 2 hours of story chapters and 10-20minute small flashpoints, that should attract the masses?? This will finish off the game more or less. People wont sub, just to get gear, gear for what?? Veteran mode KOTFE?? Please......

[Tsillah]

The main advantage of preffered was being able to TRADE. That way we had many preff people in guild and the few subs were buying ops passes for them and they were paying back daily by farming credits and trading them back since ops passes cost mostly more than the credit cap. Also dont forget the Refferal link!! Once use you got the bundle with "hide head slot" quickbars etc, so really F2P and Preff had quite a lot in my opinion. I was Preff a long time at start just for buying that bundle for 5,- euro and it was enough for me to greatly enjoy the game.

 

Thank you for being specific.

 

People can have different opinions about what "a lot" means but my comment was about the difference between F2P and preferred and that the difference between the two is not enormous as such. There is no change in the status of F2P or preferred.

 

The only thing that changed is that you no longer have an alternative option for subbing to get into endgame content but that is a separate issue from the preferred status itself.

 

I think what you describe in your example how guilds would "support" preferred players is probably the exact reason why the want to go away from selling passes. Also the referral bonuses are a separate item. Now as to the general idea that F2P get too much overall, that's another discussion. I've seen many threads already that it's too restrictive so I guess that's a matter of opinion, but personally, although I understand it was necessary to save the game, I've never been happy with the addition of F2P to SWTOR.

[CorellianWannabe]

Given past precedent around here... yes.. that would be considered pay-2-win by a good number of people. Some people still think the small number of color crystals sold direction on the GTN are Pay-2-Win, as well as the original gear that had stats that was direct sale on the CM. They are still there to buy in fact. Now, some of the outrage over these was conflated to use as a wider pedestal to complain from in general, but that's more a behavior then reality.

 

Not that I agree with people who take this position, because those items offered nothing that players could not already get similar stat levels (or better) for level in game. I consider Pay-2-Win to be where only content/items needed to "win" (whatever win actually means in an MMO....LOL) are available via out of game purchase. That would include instant leveling as well.. and I'm surprised the forum never blew up over them selling @60 characters on the CM.

 

This whole circle fest over what is/is-not Pay-2-Win has become more opaque since the proliferation of games that are not strictly subscription access. Some players just have not progressed with the times.

 

I recall you disagreeing quite vehemently over selling raid-quality gear in the cartel shop, even though " those items offered nothing that players could not already get ". What changed your tune?

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=522592&page=8

[Tsillah]

I recall you disagreeing quite vehemently over selling raid-quality gear in the cartel shop, even though " those items offered nothing that players could not already get ". What changed your tune?

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=522592&page=8

 

I can't speak for him but there is a logic error. Just because he doesn't call it pay 2 win, doesn't automatically mean he thinks it's a good idea.

 

I would also be against selling raid gear in the CM, but I wouldn't call it pay 2 win...just a really bad, game destroying idea.

[AllisonLightning]

Thank you for being specific.

 

I think what you describe in your example how guilds would "support" preferred players is probably the exact reason why the want to go away from selling passes. Also the referral bonuses are a separate item. Now as to the general idea that F2P get too much overall, that's another discussion. I've seen many threads already that it's too restrictive so I guess that's a matter of opinion, but personally, although I understand it was necessary to save the game, I've never been happy with the addition of F2P to SWTOR.

 

Guilds supporting players required a far heavier stream of passes than ones CC allowance would provide, especially on a regular basis and any referral CC comes from an active sub/new sub. The passes were a massive source of income and that's why people are shocked they were removed. Not guilds, or subs supporting preferred but the fact this was actually a major steady income source on the CM, weekly and per-character. It's self-destructive without any way to make up for losing that revenue stream.

 

F2P in itself does no harm to the game. Most MMOs can't survive otherwise and with EvE adding it, the whole dance routine over hating it... they aren't responsible for a lack of raids or content. There are plenty of MMOs that have produced a regular stream of content as F2P and hybrid models. I'm not going to be so self-defeating as to wish that it have never been added, just because the game would have died years ago. That or the Cartel Market.

 

There's only one MMO that has gone from sub to F2P to pure sub successfully; Final Fantasy XIV to Reborn, that franchise has a massive budget and was essentially a whole new game. Star Wars isn't the same. It's a science fantasy franchise which has games on the side, Final Fantasy is a gaming titan. They literally had the gamers who they could use to form a solid base and knew what they wanted, as well as traditional MMO fan. Final Fantasy is their flagship series. It's also a split platform game. They took tremendous losses to redesign the game because it was a threat to their brand. SWTOR makes money- but for ongoing costs and any re-development, there are too many Star Wars games EA can make while they hold the license than doing what Square Enix did.

 

And in the meantime, a lot of games have gone F2P, hybrid, pure B2P and so on. Star Wars in film and television prints money, it is exactly the daydreams of the people here but a sub based Star Wars MMO will never print money no matter how technically accomplished it is because Star Wars fans are as a majority, not MMO fans and while a one hit, or series will sate their thirst in games- they aren't the sort to hang around with subs. And to make a Star Wars MMO appealing to the broad Star Wars fanbase, it won't appeal to MMO players in the terms they like.

[Tsillah]

Guilds supporting players required a far heavier stream of passes than ones CC allowance would provide, especially on a regular basis and any referral CC comes from an active sub/new sub. The passes were a massive source of income and that's why people are shocked they were removed. Not guilds, or subs supporting preferred but the fact this was actually a major steady income source on the CM, weekly and per-character. It's self-destructive without any way to make up for losing that revenue stream.

 

I find it much more plausible to think that for example the sales from cartel packs far outweighs the sales percentage represented by weekly passes, thereby making weekly passes a rather small part of the total sales than you are perhaps suggesting here by calling it a "major source". A steady source, sure, I agree with that, but a major source of income? No. I think it's costing them more money than it's gaining them. So what about income from subs?

 

You see, what they probably did find out, and my feelings on this are strengthened by the explanations here of how convenient it is to not be a sub, is that it seeems it has in fact been TOO convenient in this set up to not be subbed. Seeing the explanations from people here about it, I think that's a safe assumption to make.

In the end the sub model brings in a bigger amount of money per person than ops passes or warzone passes, provided of course that enough people get a sub and that of course remains to be proven.

 

However, they will likely not need to convince even a third of the people who are using weekly passes regularly to get a sub. Now you mentioned the weekly sub grant, which can easily grant 2 weekly passes. This point, and thank you for bringing it up, I hadn't thought about yet and it actually strengthens my view, because even less money needs to be spent on giving people the 4 passes a month. Now depending on the amount of CC a subbed guild member would buy in one go on top of their sub grant, supporting another guild member to play ops during the full month may cost around 3-4 bucks in either Euro or Dollar amounts in the end. So by that, they only need to convince about 25-30% of them to sub.

 

Add to that the point that the people who are mostly using this are likely people who've played for longer periods of time or people that have learned via their guildies that this is a viable way to circumvent a sub and I can start to see why BWA are making this move, because not only will some existing players be forced to make a choice, it will also not teach new players to circumvent subs anymore either.

 

Now, granted, I cannot claim that this move will be successful but then nobody can claim to know that this approach will fail either and looking at how cheap it can be to sustain a preferred player to do ops or warzones for a full month, I dare say, it's quite understandable that they think this can work out positively.

[AllisonLightning]

Add to that the point that the people who are mostly using this are likely people who've played for longer periods of time or people that have learned via their guildies that this is a viable way to circumvent a sub and I can start to see why BWA are making this move, because not only will some existing players be forced to make a choice, it will also not teach new players to circumvent subs anymore either.

 

Now, granted, I cannot claim that this move will be successful but then nobody can claim to know that this approach will fail either and looking at how cheap it can be to sustain a preferred player to do ops or warzones for a full month, I dare say, it's quite understandable that they think this can work out positively.

 

We've got a lower amount of players in addition to the idea that you get free expansions is counterproductive. I apologize but I don't think that teaching new players that you can sub and just get all the keys is a good idea. Free expansions rather than a system where you bought it and then added a sub on top of that to get the whole experience is a perpetual loss on future content development. Players are making the choice to leave and go play other games, and this was before the passes were taken out as a factor.

 

Deleting the passes really is along the lines with free expansions, which is, taking subs out of the equation for the moment, the idea that the game can depend on diminishing income streams. Also think you underestimate a constant revenue stream like passes which unlike unlocks are per character and per week. Subs bought these things up as one of the top sellers because it was easy credits.

 

Note: Damn it, missed out on a warzone... Stupid need to reply.

[Tsillah]

We've got a lower amount of players in addition to the idea that you get free expansions is counterproductive.

 

Could you rephrase this? It makes no sense to me at all like this.

 

I apologize but I don't think that teaching new players that you can sub and just get all the keys is a good idea.

 

Keys? What are these keys that you are referring to? In any case for BWA it makes more sense if new player sub rather than learn how to circumvent a sub.

 

Free expansions rather than a system where you bought it and then added a sub on top of that to get the whole experience is a perpetual loss on future content development.

 

There may be some truth in that. Considering the amount of content they bring out though, it appears BWA are not capable of bringing out a big expansion, so it may not be a realistic option anymore. I have to wonder though how many MMOs outside of WoW still come out with fully priced expansions on top of a sub, so I'm not sure if you're right. If the market generally doesn't do this anymore, it may not be a viable strategy anymore. A shame though, I did prefer the big expansions and didn't mind paying for them either.

 

Players are making the choice to leave and go play other games, and this was before the passes were taken out as a factor.

 

Yes I know that but I have no idea what your point is with this comment. People leaving is a content issue more than anything. That won't change unless they add more content. The January livestream they spoke of should be interesting in that respect. However, as you said these people already left, so the weekly passes didn't keep them here so taking them out also has no effect for them.

 

Deleting the passes really is along the lines with free expansions, which is, taking subs out of the equation for the moment, the idea that the game can depend on diminishing income streams. Also think you underestimate a constant revenue stream like passes which unlike unlocks are per character and per week. Subs bought these things up as one of the top sellers because it was easy credits.

 

Subs buy all kinds of things to make credits with. If it's not this, it will be something else, so for subs there is no issue, just a change in what the buy from the CM and I still think they spend a ton more on cartel packs for example. I also think this move is to increase the income streams as I detailed before. I also explained why these weekly passes are a financial loss compared to subs. People are basically allowed to play the game as they like it for a fraction of the normal sub price. Surely this is not a good business model?

 

Note: Damn it, missed out on a warzone... Stupid need to reply.

 

I'm sure there will be more

[PlasmaJohn]

F2P in itself does no harm to the game. Most MMOs can't survive otherwise and with EvE adding it, the whole dance routine over hating it... they aren't responsible for a lack of raids or content. There are plenty of MMOs that have produced a regular stream of content as F2P and hybrid models. I'm not going to be so self-defeating as to wish that it have never been added, just because the game would have died years ago. That or the Cartel Market.

There are studios that do F2P right just like there are studios that do sub-only right. By "right" I mean timely bug fixes, class designers that engage the community, and a steady stream of fresh content for their constituent niches. FFXIV seems to have figured that out, that's how they get away with being sub-only. WoW's population has some significant population swings because they take too long between releases.

 

MMO's go F2P to prop up a broken content pipeline. Sub-only is still viable IMO. From 1.6 to 2.x SW:TOR was one heck of a fun MMO until they ran out of content.

[Transcendent]

There are studios that do F2P right just like there are studios that do sub-only right. By "right" I mean timely bug fixes, class designers that engage the community, and a steady stream of fresh content for their constituent niches. FFXIV seems to have figured that out, that's how they get away with being sub-only. WoW's population has some significant population swings because they take too long between releases.

 

MMO's go F2P to prop up a broken content pipeline. Sub-only is still viable IMO. From 1.6 to 2.x SW:TOR was one heck of a fun MMO until they ran out of content.

 

Aside from FFXIV I can't think of any sub-only model that works well without consistent content updates. If anything FFXIV is actually doing the whole MMO thing leaps and bounds ahead of what is happening in SWTOR, content updates aside, they even realised what was holding them back and closed the whole thing down to rework what they were doing.

 

At this moment in time, closing down SWTOR and setting it on the right path using the right tools (game engine) and right developers would do little to no harm. It's certainly not like they're producing content properly for whatever reasoning BioWare wish to come up with. 1.6 - 2.x (and partially 3.x) was probably the best we've seen. Since then it's been somewhat downhill. I still can't fathom how BioWare came to the conclusion players wanted only a singular story (one size doesn't fit all for SWTOR) over any other type of content production. That's just skewed metrics or not learning to read metrics properly while removing any bias.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Transcendent

[Kintaroshi]

Quite possible.

[Alphasgimaone]

Were we thinking of the same FFXIV? It's been hemorrhaging players for well over a year now. While it may have a good content cycle, it's only to the benefit of longtime players. It's really, really struggling to bring in new people. And, because the way HW was deployed, this is worsened by the fact that its made any would-be incoming player feel wholly unwelcome. The lower level areas are basically empty now on all but a few (sic exclusive) servers.

 

The game is in real trouble.

 

 

ETA: And if were talking about validity of IPs, I'd argue that, in the videogame world, Final Fantasy is stronger than even Star Wars.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Alphasgimaone

[MeNaCe-NZ]

As to the CXP boosts, WHO CARES??

 

Clearly all the people stating they care ...

[Jerba]

In today's livestream, they talked about a CXP boost for guilds (which is not in the game, but they may add it later). That would be a great idea IMO to encourage players to join a guild. I've seen very many unguilded players recently, even ex-raiders that are now guildless because their guild disbanded.

They didn't mention CXP boosts from the Cartel Market though. Hopefully, we can get a yellow post to clarify that like Musco stated originally, GC will have nothing to do with the Cartel Market.

 

From the livestream @ 57:48:

Bad Feeling Podcast: Is there a guild Command XP boost like there is for regular XP or rep[utation] gain?

 

Chris Schmidt: For Command XP? I do not believe we have one currently at ship[ment of 5.0]. We're definitely open to it.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Jerba

[Jerba]

As to the CXP boosts, WHO CARES??

 

There is a CXP weekly cap, people will just find a way to farm CXP every day and everyone will reach the cap with or without boost!! LOL yeah the people with a boost will reach cap faster, but what for? Still we will all meet at the weekly cap!!

 

There will surely be a way to kill some mobs in ops or FPS or open world, which will bring lots of CXP and people will farm it, no point of using boosts then.

According to Musco, the weekly cap is so high that you will not be able to reach it by normal means; its purpose is to minimize the impact of exploits. I'll definitely try to find the weekly cap, though I fear that may flag me for exploiting.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Jerba