The Empire and it's constant struggle.

[Aehwe]

I've just started playing again after a 2 year break. While I enjoyed both the latest expansions, I saw a red thread early on in vanilla that I'm sad to see is still continuing.

 

Yes, I realise the Empire is the "bad" guys, however. Since half the players of SWTOR actually plays as the bad guys, isn't it time they actually got a win for a change? During the course of the game this happens:

 

The Emperor, the most influental and important character of the Empire is killed by the Jedi Knight in the class story. And none the imperial classes even gets a glimpse of him.

 

Darth Malgus takes over. A character that was the true figurehead of the Empire due to the cinematics and death of the Emperor. Is killed by republic/imperial players in a flashpoint.

 

Dread Masters betray the Empire and are the new bad guys. Gets killed by republic/imperial players in operations.

 

The Emperor is alive, only to betray the Empire.

 

The Emperor is found. Darth Marr, the new figurehead of the Empire and a fan favorite gets killed by the Emperor.

 

 

These are pretty powerful blows to the Empire, and let's face it. The Dark Side. Now with this light side vs dark side event. It looks like the Empire/dark side will get yet another blow.

 

Bioware, don't you think it's about time that The Empire got a win again? Satele Shan needs to die.

[SirRickson]

This has been an issue since the start of the game. The only success the empire had was before the game launched with the treaty of coruscant. Since then majority of the Dark council are killed, Balmora an important world with lots of manufacturing and industrial power is lost. Corellia is lost another core world with 1/10 of the empires military eliminated which is quite a lot considering the empire only has a fraction of the population the republic has. Malgus,dread masters,revanite threat and the destruction of ziost one of the founding capitals.

 

As well these key defeats the emperor goes rogue which is a huge morale blow considering the emperor rallied the empire to fight the republic at the start. As well as this key characters that were instrumental before the treaty such as Grand moff Kilran, Baras and Angral are gone. Combine this with the complete annihilation of the dark council in KOTFE and further defeats. Imperial intelligence dismantled,children of the emperor dead,korriban attacked the list is endless.

 

The empire is so much weaker now, right now it feels like the remnants are clinging on until the day the republic invades dromund kass and eliminates the empire.

 

Playing an empire character couldn't feel more dissatisfying with so many key characters and defeats I can't see the empire ever rising back to its former glory. Killing Darth Marr was the cherry on top, the last interesting character and the only hope the empire has of survival. Meanwhile the republic still has the Jedi order, the senate,satele Shan despite being weakened by the eternal empire.

Edited September 6, 2016 by SirRickson

[Sage_of_Battle]

It's just the generic trope of "bad guy is bad therefore cannot win so (insert dumb choice here that ****s up everything.)" Star Wars has always been guilty of this. And due to this being a prequel story where thousands of years from now, we know that the Republic is still standing, it's forced into this development path. Typical good guy endings. The dark side/Empire is unfortunately marred by Stupid Evil or Chaotic Stupid aligned characters. The worst part is they can't even come up with solid reasoning behind this. Neither BioWare nor George Lucas. Lucas made it so that all Sith are Stupid Evil or end up becoming Stupid Evil because like I said bad guy therefore cannot win. It's usually the issue with all good vs evil storylines and is why authors like George Martin and his A Song of Ice and Fire(you may know it as Game of Thrones via the popular show) story has gotten so popular. Turns out people like characters with more complexity than "let me kick this puppy because I feel like it." Edited September 6, 2016 by Sage_of_Battle

[FlameYOL]

Yes it has been bothersome since the start of the game,compared to what the republic can do in the second galactic war the empire is barely holding a ship together...

[SerraShar]

Considering how the empire is populated by Bro darth..

 

Leave Satele alone!!

 

Pffff , the empire lose cose it's populated by self serving sith . They drag it to the ground with their attitude . Hell by the time I reached corellia...I was amazed they still had man powers at all to throw in the war .

 

beside if you take into account Revan : the Truth is outta there ! meaning neither side is right or should win lol

 

Then if you take Kreia account: both side should be wiped out..

 

and if you take the emprore....each side is just a buffet for him .

 

Take your pick......the empire generate too much Hostiles turn on you.....why should they win ?

[Aehwe]

Some great pointers in here and glad to see I'm not the only one that's noticed this. Sure we know what'll become of the galaxy thousands of years ahead, but since SWTOR is no longer canon, it opens up a few more doors I'd imagine. Also from what I remember from the old EU timeline, the Sith Empire actually wins the war before it turns back into the republic again.

Also don't forget that this is 3600 years before the movies.

 

 

Considering how the empire is populated by Bro darth..

 

Leave Satele alone!!

 

Pffff , the empire lose cose it's populated by self serving sith . They drag it to the ground with their attitude . Hell by the time I reached corellia...I was amazed they still had man powers at all to throw in the war .

 

beside if you take into account Revan : the Truth is outta there ! meaning neither side is right or should win lol

 

Then if you take Kreia account: both side should be wiped out..

 

and if you take the emprore....each side is just a buffet for him .

 

Take your pick......the empire generate too much Hostiles turn on you.....why should they win ?

 

 

I get what you're saying, and that would be perfectly fine in a game where you play only as the good guy. Under the Emperor's rule they thrived for a thousand years, came back and kicked the republic's ***. Then suddenly Bioware decides that The Sith Empire will have no victories at all, and only suffer defeat after defeat.

The reason the Sith Empire needs a win is like we've stated. It's becoming less and less fun to play as the Empire, because there really are no victories for us.

 

And even though the Sith Empire are the "bad guys", to us the players our cause is just. You gotta see it from our perspective aswell.

[Montferrand]

As long as we will be in the Alliance setting, Republic and Empire fighting alongside against the Eternal Empire, the Sith Empire will not have a "win" against the Republic. The Republic could have a loss (ex: the death of Satele or Saresh), but it would not be a victory for the Empire.

[Limariko]

The Empire suffers from the same scenario the Horde does in WoW and the Klingons in STO, since they're the perceived baddies they tend to be approached first as a foil for the perceived good guys and as a playable faction second. They never quite fully realize that there are a substantial amount of players who do play these factions with the same passion the perceived good guy factions and want to see their faction have it's time to come out ahead the same as the other.

 

With SWTOR it also doesn't help that George Lucas had a serious issue with fans genuinely liking what he considered the villains. He simply couldn't wrap his mind around Vader and Boba Fett having active fanbases or people thinking the Empire as bad as it was shown, still had it's act more together than the Rebel Alliance.

 

I have hoped that with SWTOR being considered its own thing with the reclassifying of the EU and seeing some positive progress for the Empire, there's still a good amount of the fanbase who only wants to see the Empire keep failing against the Republic.

[SerraShar]

Some great pointers in here and glad to see I'm not the only one that's noticed this. Sure we know what'll become of the galaxy thousands of years ahead, but since SWTOR is no longer canon, it opens up a few more doors I'd imagine. Also from what I remember from the old EU timeline, the Sith Empire actually wins the war before it turns back into the republic again.

Also don't forget that this is 3600 years before the movies.

 

 

 

 

 

I get what you're saying, and that would be perfectly fine in a game where you play only as the good guy. Under the Emperor's rule they thrived for a thousand years, came back and kicked the republic's ***. Then suddenly Bioware decides that The Sith Empire will have no victories at all, and only suffer defeat after defeat.

The reason the Sith Empire needs a win is like we've stated. It's becoming less and less fun to play as the Empire, because there really are no victories for us.

 

And even though the Sith Empire are the "bad guys", to us the players our cause is just. You gotta see it from our perspective aswell.

 

I play Sith too...so just you know...I have 5 Sorc and duplicate of each class

 

But you haven't given any REASON why would the Empire win ? beside ''we player must win cose we play on this side'' .

 

A victory for the empire (at least that's how I see it , so personal opinion) , mean the empire did some clean up in their ranks . They are more united , they have peoples looking up to them and so on .

 

Then they win because they are strong and believe in a cause .

 

their victory must be true and right . Not just win..cose my hood look better then yours .

 

And now with Kotfe.....that old rivalery..just gone down the dumpset..what is with those lame Knights of Zaakul...

[Sage_of_Battle]

With SWTOR it also doesn't help that George Lucas had a serious issue with fans genuinely liking what he considered the villains. He simply couldn't wrap his mind around Vader and Boba Fett having active fanbases or people thinking the Empire as bad as it was shown, still had it's act more together than the Rebel Alliance..

 

The guy wanted to kill off Vader in ANH for christ's sake. He had around 12 minutes of screen time. One of the most memorable characters in not just Star Wars history, but in cinema history in general, and the creator wanted to kill him off before he could even peak!

Edited September 7, 2016 by Sage_of_Battle

[Montferrand]

With SWTOR it also doesn't help that George Lucas had a serious issue with fans genuinely liking what he considered the villains. He simply couldn't wrap his mind around Vader and Boba Fett having active fanbases or people thinking the Empire as bad as it was shown, still had it's act more together than the Rebel Alliance.

 

What do you mean by "considered the villains?" You are speaking as if it were a matter of opinion. Lucas created the Empire. He made them the villains of his story, so they are the villains. He even applied nazi symbolism to them (uniforms, stormtroopers, etc) to make sure we would get they are the villains and hate them (or love to hate them). So I understand he could be baffled by the fact that some people would actually like the Empire. Just as J.K. Rowling who cannot understand how teenage girls could be fans of Draco Malfoy, who is the most pathetic and cowardly little piece of turd of the books (and movies).

 

I get that these days people prefer stories told in shades of grey. Star Wars is a fairy tale told in a futuristic setting, and like all fairy tales, it is told in black and white. The wolf, the stepmother, the witch and the ogre are black and have no redeemable quality and so is the Empire.

 

That being said, it would have made for a better story if the Empire had some important victory. Even if we know that in the end, the Republic would have to prevail.

[Montferrand]

The guy wanted to kill off Vader in ANH for christ's sake. He had around 7 minutes of screen time. One of the most memorable characters in not just Star Wars history, but in cinema history in general, and the creator wanted to kill him off before he could even peak!

 

Because Lucas was unsure there would be a second movie. So he probably considered wrapping it up.

[Sage_of_Battle]

Because Lucas was unsure there would be a second movie. So he probably considered wrapping it up.

 

Not only that, if I remember correctly from a documentary, he was embarrassed by the character. He thought it was a silly character.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Sage_of_Battle

[Limariko]

What do you mean by "considered the villains?" You are speaking as if it were a matter of opinion. Lucas created the Empire. He made them the villains of his story, so they are the villains. He even applied nazi symbolism to them (uniforms, stormtroopers, etc) to make sure we would get they are the villains and hate them (or love to hate them). So I understand he could be baffled by the fact that some people would actually like the Empire. Just as J.K. Rowling who cannot understand how teenage girls could be fans of Draco Malfoy, who is the most pathetic and cowardly little piece of turd of the books (and movies).

 

I get that these days people prefer stories told in shades of grey. Star Wars is a fairy tale told in a futuristic setting, and like all fairy tales, it is told in black and white. The wolf, the stepmother, the witch and the ogre are black and have no redeemable quality and so is the Empire.

 

I know by Lucas' perspective the Empire is the villain, that's how he wanted them to be seen, and the Rebel Alliance is the scrappy underdog we're all supposed to be rooting for and identify with. But there is the fact by presenting things so one note, it's going to make some want to look deeper. As much as I know the fairy tale paradigm of things in black and white which does work when it's a one off story, it crumbles when you're looking at a longer time scale series/franchise like Star Wars. A total evil Empire lasting for as long as we see in the franchise simply doesn't make sense, same as the Rebel Alliance/New Republic still functioning in unity once they don't have a enemy to be united against.

 

Even looking at the Harry Potter franchise, over the course of time, the villains have understandable reasons for why they ended up as they did and the good guys have their moments of being not so good.

 

It boils down that everything really does come down to shades of grey in the end.

[OldVengeance]

If a person is not willing to accept the premise of the franchise, then I would think Star Wars just isn't for you. It's the same with any piece of fiction, really. The Star Wars trilogy is about a big Evil Empire and a good Rebellion. Not every story necessarily has (or needs) shades of grey. Edited September 7, 2016 by OldVengeance

[Aehwe]

I play Sith too...so just you know...I have 5 Sorc and duplicate of each class

 

But you haven't given any REASON why would the Empire win ? beside ''we player must win cose we play on this side'' .

 

A victory for the empire (at least that's how I see it , so personal opinion) , mean the empire did some clean up in their ranks . They are more united , they have peoples looking up to them and so on .

 

Then they win because they are strong and believe in a cause .

 

their victory must be true and right . Not just win..cose my hood look better then yours .

 

And now with Kotfe.....that old rivalery..just gone down the dumpset..what is with those lame Knights of Zaakul...

 

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying.

 

The reason the Empire needs a win isn't about looking cooler or anything like that. The reason is if one faction gets **** upon time after time, that faction becomes less interesting to play. It becomes less fun to play for the players in that faction. As the opposite faction appears much stronger, wins all the time and in return gets more players. At the rate this is going, they are killing off the Empire.

 

If you can't see that as a good reason for needing a win, I really don't know what to say. And a win every now and then doesn't have to mean enslave or win the war. It can be as trivial as killing off Satele Shan for example.

 

At this point there's not much clean up to do in the imperial ranks. All the big figureheads are dead. The Empire is on the brink of extinction.

 

 

Let me add an analogy for it to illustrate the problem.

 

Republic football team vs Empire football team.

 

Both are in a tournament. (the War)

They play several matches against eachother. (different Battles)

Each team scores goals. (Death of the emperor, Darth Malgus, Darth Marr etc.)

 

Now there's the problem. In these matches, the Republic team seems to be the only ones scoring goals. Yet the Empire team has good players too and definitely should have scored some goals aswell.

 

That means some matches could be won, but the tournament isn't over. However in the current state. The Empire loses every single match without even scoring a single goal.

 

Get it?

Edited September 7, 2016 by Aehwe

[Estelindis]

I am replaying some classes at the moment and actually it seems like the Empire wins a lot. Maybe not in the long term, but the Republic has some long term losses as well. As my preference is to play light side, I usually try to undermine the Empire or make it more ethical, even when I'm playing Empire. I'm trying to work against that tendency during my current replays to experience different stories - and, when you do go dark, there are some really ruthless moments that achieve serious (if temporary) victories for the Empire.

 

Consider Grand Marshal Cheketta on Balmorra. Usually when you hear enemies over the speakers as you fight through an area they're taunting you or belittling you, which I always think makes them look rather petty. Cheketta is cracking jokes and giving inspirational speeches to his people. He doesn't care about the player character, he cares about his subordinates. There is nothing this guy won't do for his troops and the resistance. When you beat him, he will even try to sacrifice his personal honour (like Ned Stark), so that his captured followers will be treated better. Playing dark side, I made myself turn down that offer this time, even though I felt sick doing it. Taking him prisoner with no guarantees about how he or his subordinates will be treated feels much worse than killing him - and will most likely achieve much more for the Empire in the long term, as everyone has a limit, particularly when he clearly cares so much about the other prisoners that the Empire will be able to use them against him in captivity.

 

This guy is a flat-out hero. And I really did not enjoy taking so much away from him. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think the average player also doesn't enjoy seeing such heroism brought low unambiguously. This was a great story, brilliantly written. And it was unsettling. I feel like, generally, because the Empire is what it is, a lot of its victories should be ambiguous like that.

[Sage_of_Battle]

If a person is not willing to accept the premise of the franchise, then I would think Star Wars just isn't for you. It's the same with any piece of fiction, really. The Star Wars trilogy is about a big Evil Empire and a good Rebellion. Not every story necessarily has (or needs) shades of grey.

 

Originally it was but there's no reason as to why it can't branch out. Kotor 2 was a smorgasborg of shades of grey, and that was one of the most compelling Star Wars storylines in the franchise but without making it overly complicated or convoluted. Imo, it's one of the best stories written in the Star Wars universe and it just makes stories that much more interesting and complex to throw in shades of grey.

 

 

Some great pointers in here and glad to see I'm not the only one that's noticed this. Sure we know what'll become of the galaxy thousands of years ahead, but since SWTOR is no longer canon, it opens up a few more doors I'd imagine. Also from what I remember from the old EU timeline, the Sith Empire actually wins the war before it turns back into the republic again.

Also don't forget that this is 3600 years before the movies.

 

I'm almost positive the Republic has never fallen. The Sith Empire or the Sith have never ruled the galaxy, except for when Sidious came around, if I'm not mistaken. And with how badly beaten the Empire currently is, it's even more doubtful that they'd be able to win the war anymore. Most of their chronological victories in the storyline of this game are pretty hollow.

[GeneralRhodes]

The Sith Empire or the Sith have never ruled the galaxy, except for when Sidious came around, if I'm not mistaken

 

The movies disagree, with statements like 'the oppression of the sith will never return' and 'once more the sith will rule the galaxy'

 

So clearly they did at some point. Alot can happen in nearly 4000 years

[Sage_of_Battle]

The movies disagree, with statements like 'the oppression of the sith will never return' and 'once more the sith will rule the galaxy'

 

So clearly they did at some point. Alot can happen in nearly 4000 years

 

They can disagree all they'd like, there's no current lore that states otherwise apart from a passing statement. "Ruling" can be interpreted in a number of ways anyway. I'm almost positive that at some points in the Sith Empire class storylines, the player character says something about the Sith ruling the galaxy in some boast, doesn't quite make it true. Obi Wan states that for over 1000 generations the Jedi have guarded the Republic, which is a lot longer than 4000 years whilst Palpatine says the Republic had stood for over 1000 years. Years=/=generations and I'm not sure if Lucas knows that or not, but there's nothing really to indicate the Sith had ever ruled the galaxy other than a line which could be interpreted in a number of ways. Safer to say they never did and Lucas just came up with another inconsistency in his script, an empty line to add more seriousness to Sidious and the situation.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Sage_of_Battle

[Aehwe]

Originally it was but there's no reason as to why it can't branch out. Kotor 2 was a smorgasborg of shades of grey, and that was one of the most compelling Star Wars storylines in the franchise but without making it overly complicated or convoluted. Imo, it's one of the best stories written in the Star Wars universe and it just makes stories that much more interesting and complex to throw in shades of grey.

 

 

 

 

I'm almost positive the Republic has never fallen. The Sith Empire or the Sith have never ruled the galaxy, except for when Sidious came around, if I'm not mistaken. And with how badly beaten the Empire currently is, it's even more doubtful that they'd be able to win the war anymore. Most of their chronological victories in the storyline of this game are pretty hollow.

 

A quick look at wookiepeedia shows "The Old Republic collapses." 1000 years before the clone wars. Don't forget that the old republic and the republic in the original saga are not the same. And there's also a much more famous quote that proves you're wrong. I'll just add the video.

 

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW1h4iKeMZ0"

[Sage_of_Battle]

A quick look at wookiepeedia shows "The Old Republic collapses." 1000 years before the clone wars. Don't forget that the old republic and the republic in the original saga are not the same. And there's also a much more famous quote that proves you're wrong. I'll just add the video.

 

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW1h4iKeMZ0"

 

I already debunked the quote, linking it adds nothing to the question at hand. There's nothing that proves the Sith ruled except for a passing statement, more probable that it was just an inconsistency on Lucas' writing as a way to add more weight to the situation at the time. An empty line. A Republic collapsing=/=the Sith winning this war which was your original point, even if that were true. Want to source exactly where it says the Republic "collapsed?" The closest the Republic came to "collapsing" was during the New Sith Wars. The Sith Empire ruled large portions of the Galaxy, but never the entirety, and never over the Republic and it was never one Empire. There's been multiple "Sith Empires" and other orders. This particular one for sure loses and is absorbed into the Republic. The "Old Republic" and the Republic that we see in the films, as an entity are the exact same. But as a governmental organization, they may be different. Perhaps there used to be a different way of appointing a chancellor or senators. The difference in organization could be minuscule, not nearly enough to state they're wholly "different."

Edited September 7, 2016 by Sage_of_Battle

[Aehwe]

I already debunked the quote. There's nothing that proves the Sith ruled, more probable that it was just an inconsistency on Lucas' writing. A Republic collapsing=/=the Sith winning this war which was your original point, even if that were true. Want to source exactly where it says the Republic "collapsed?"

 

I never said that the Sith Empire needs to win the war. If you think I did you need to re-read the points I'm trying to make. All I want is for the Sith Empire to get some "wins" ie. strike some significant blows to the republic/jedi. I'm talking about winning battles, not the war.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_galactic_history

 

"About 1,000 years before the Clone Wars

The Battle of Takodana is fought between the Jedi and the Sith. (at least 1,000 years)[11]

The Sith are defeated by the Jedi and are driven into hiding.[1]

The Old Republic collapses.[13]"

[Montferrand]

They can disagree all they'd like, there's no current lore that states otherwise apart from a passing statement. "Ruling" can be interpreted in a number of ways anyway. I'm almost positive that at some points in the Sith Empire class storylines, the player character says something about the Sith ruling the galaxy in some boast, doesn't quite make it true. Obi Wan states that for over 1000 generations the Jedi have guarded the Republic, which is a lot longer than 4000 years whilst Palpatine says the Republic had stood for over 1000 years. Years=/=generations and I'm not sure if Lucas knows that or not, but there's nothing really to indicate the Sith had ever ruled the galaxy other than a line which could be interpreted in a number of ways. Safer to say they never did and Lucas just came up with another inconsistency in his script, an empty line to add more seriousness to Sidious and the situation.

 

In Clone Wars, they mention the Old Republic. Which means that before the Galactic Republic, there was another republic who had fallen. It is in the canon now that before the creation of the modern Galactic Republic, there was a Hundred Years of Darkness, during which the Sith managed to build an "empire" on the ruins of a declining Republic. The Republic relied more and more on the Jedi Order for its defense and government. Ultimately, the Jedi won. Now, was this "Sith Empire" a centralized power like the Sith Empire of SWTOR or the Galactic Empire? I don't know. But, in a way, these hundred years were ruled by the Sith and they were oppressing the peoples of the galaxy with their perpetual wars.

[Sage_of_Battle]

I never said that the Sith Empire needs to win the war. If you think I did you need to re-read the points I'm trying to make. All I want is for the Sith Empire to get some "wins" ie. strike some significant blows to the republic/jedi. I'm talking about winning battles, not the war.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_galactic_history

 

"About 1,000 years before the Clone Wars

The Battle of Takodana is fought between the Jedi and the Sith. (at least 1,000 years)[11]

The Sith are defeated by the Jedi and are driven into hiding.[1]

The Old Republic collapses.[13]"

 

 

And I never claimed you said that the Empire needs to win the war. But you stated incorrectly that the Empire wins this war right about here....

 

Also from what I remember from the old EU timeline, the Sith Empire actually wins the war before it turns back into the republic again..

 

I'd like for the Empire to have some wins as well. It does, but most of them are hollow and the timeline will never allow them to have significant victories.

 

Like I said, a Republic collapsing=/= the Sith ruling. And the Old Republic collapsing doesn't mean the Republic ended. It would seem more that it just reformed into the Galactic Republic, and as an entity, remained the same. In fact, here's the exact passage on the Old Republic page...

 

"As the Old Republic slowly fell, the Jedi Order finally believed itself victorious from its conflict with the Sith, who they believed to have been destroyed completely. The shattered Old Republic reorganized itself into the Galactic Republic following its collapse." No mention of it ever being ruled. You could compare it to the Roman Empire, and how they broke off to form their own separate Empires. One collapsed in the West, and the other reformed in the East to become known as the Byzantine Empire.

 

 

In Clone Wars, they mention the Old Republic. Which means that before the Galactic Republic, there was another republic who had fallen. It is in the canon now that before the creation of the modern Galactic Republic, there was a Hundred Years of Darkness, during which the Sith managed to build an "empire" on the ruins of a declining Republic. The Republic relied more and more on the Jedi Order for its defense and government. Ultimately, the Jedi won. Now, was this "Sith Empire" a centralized power like the Sith Empire of SWTOR or the Galactic Empire? I don't know. But, in a way, these hundred years were ruled by the Sith and they were oppressing the peoples of the galaxy with their perpetual wars.

 

Regarding the Hundred Years of Darkness, that was just a schism in the Jedi Order which led to the creation of the Sith, events that happened even before the events of Kotor. No Empire was formed, just the foundation for the next coming of the Sith and the Republic never crumbled and fell to the Sith due to it. There was no ruling on their part. In fact, this seems like more of a localized conflict between the Jedi and Sith rather than the entirety of the Republic. This is both in canon and legends.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Sage_of_Battle