What is easy to implement and what we really need

[merera]

There will be no wishful thinking here. Game admin knows all too well that numbers are dwindilng and the short answer is "pvp focus happened". Let us assume that kicking open world pvp to a separate instance was done under severe pressure from influentiial pve-whiners and the decision won't ever be reversed. Let's see how it can be mended to revive open-world pvp and overall player interest.

 

Throughout the text I will hold as an axiom that pvp is the spring that brings life to any MMO, the player should be allowed to choose his exposure to it, but never be free of it altogether. At present the game admin is tending to reduce pvp to strictly timed and regulated 4vs4 or 8vs8, which is a grave mistake in my humble opinion. Pvp fights 16vs1, "this is my resource", "i clicked first" and "all the mobs are belong to me" are also fun and should be encouraged.

 

As of now the pvp instances are mostly dead, used only by heroic grinding groups when mobs are scarce in the pve-space. That presents an opportunity to liven up the game. If mob HP in the pve and pvp instances are rebalanced separately, say a 5% HP increase in PVE, and a sizeable, like 20%, decrease in HP in the PVP for the same mob (remember it was done once on Ilum, the Gree heroic), that would create incentive for players to venture in the PVP instance and trade the risk being killed for faster quest advancement. That be (1).

 

Since no one can hit each other in PVE instances anymore, all players could be allowed to travel to all planets, the Empire and Republic are technically at peace after all. Thus newbie planets and Capital city planets could have a functional pvp-instance where newbies would be free to go on their own risk and evil players from the opposite faction would wait for stragglers (or a vigilante ops group). Due to game design that won't include two Balmorras and two Tarises, of course. And yes, Ziost and other no-pvp-instance planets need functional pvp-instances too. That be (2).

 

Yes and resource nodes of the pvp-instance could produce a tad more than in pve-instances. Like 4 units per node in PVE, 7 units in PVP. That be (3)

 

If this gets implemented and works well an extension could be considered, adding a FFA instance, where players would be mutually attackable regardless of faction. Incentive to go to this lawless instance could be created by further reducing mob HP, say by 50% from normal. The FFA area worked wonders with the Gree event on Ilum, before pvp instancing happened. These additional instances and different stats for mobs could create some extra server load but this, I hope, could have a budget solution, incomparable to the material losses that dull gameplay produces now.

 

Thank you for your attention.

Edited August 28, 2016 by merera

[deusexb]

I'm rather pleased that 'open' PvP has been reined in. While leveling a low-level alt, there were few things more asinine than a high-level or geared player intercepting my AoE spread, triggering PvP and then ganking me for sh*ts and giggles.

Players who dislike PvP are typically players who are less proficient at PvP and any game feature that would compel a PvP encounter, inevitably resulting in defeat, would reduce their game enjoyment.

 

Rather recently in KOFE; PvP group sessions were required to acquire Major Pierce and/or the Republic combat droid companions. I found myself grinding the numbers as required while having little interest or skill and thereby weakening my entire team in doing so. PvP is an acquired skill and taste and belongs in a contained preference space.

[Trynitris]

There will be no wishful thinking here. Game admin knows all too well that numbers are dwindilng and the short answer is "pvp focus happened". Let us assume that kicking open world pvp to an empty instance was done under severe pressure from influentiial pve-whiners and the decision won't ever be reversed.

 

Hmmm, interesting. I always thought that the intent of making PvE and PvP instances was to benefit PvP players, so that everyone who was interested in open world PvP could gather in those instances and PvP everywhere possible, as often as they wanted to, and with others who also wanted to. It seemed to be a great solution for those who wanted open world PvP, without impacting those who did not want open world PvP. Apparently it's not quite working that way, since the instances are not currently filled with happy open world PvP players. But still, I believe the intent was to help PvP players, and not due to pressure from PvE players.

 

Even though I don't PvP, I do think it would be good to find some way of bringing more PvP players into those PvP instances. Even though I'm not interested in PvP, I know that there are some players that truly enjoy it.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Trynitris

[merera]

I always thought that making PvE and PvP instances was for the benefit of PvP players

 

Yea, I bet it was intended this way, but one could have asked around. Almost all player interaction is in fact PVP, and usually produces dissatisfaction because one side wins, the other loses. Your GF flashpoint groupie that suddenly ragequit probably lost, perhaps it was his nerve he lost but anyway. The guy that was patient enough to get a unique drop from seeker droid mining, he showed it off and the other guy that got jealous - he lost. One clicked the node faster than the other, one hit Valen Korik first, one grabbed the irradiated rakghouls etc, you name it. It's all PVP and there are usually two sides, and one does complain. It is inevitable.

 

As of now the game admin respond to such complaints with attempts to level the playfield: for the unique mount there will be a similar one in the Cartel market, crowded heroics will get instanced, leveling has become lightning-fast, resources are ridiculously plentyful etc. I can understand this kind of policy, but it does take the competition out of the game, and gameplay does get dull the very moment complaints get their satisfaction. I am merely trying to suggest a feature that would leave the present policies mostly intact but still add some competition to the gameplay.

 

IMO ongoing conflict is the main spirit of any action MMO, much more than cooperation. And regulating the extent of this conflict rather than eliminating it altogether should probably turn out more beneficial for gameplay. In this context I'd say that moving all pvp action to a separate instance looked more like elimination to me.

 

There are several models of grading the extent of conflict in an MMO, but they all have common features: (1) a player is free to move from minimal action areas to maximum action any time (2) the areas overlap and/or movement between them is pretty easy and does not interrupt player dialog (3) there is substantial incentive for the players to spend a lot of time in more riskier environments.

 

Thank you for your attention

[DreadtechSavant]

Yea, I bet it was intended this way, but one could have asked around. Almost all player interaction is in fact PVP, and usually produces dissatisfaction because one side wins, the other loses.

 

Thank you for your attention

 

To me the reason why PvP does not work is because PvP players still fall into 2 category's. Solo PvP as a lot do in open world PvP and group PvP, such as those do WZ's and group ganking solo players. You tend to find group PvP abuse gear. Solo open world players do not. Until BW address this PvP is never going to change.

 

I personally believe this is why so many left PvP servers.

 

 

Edit

 

BTW OP

"Let us assume"

 

First mistake, you should never assume.

Edited August 31, 2016 by DreadtechSavant

[Nempo]

Simple understanding, cause and effect.

You create an open PvP instance for anyone/everyone. If it is a ghost town then ergo, the masses do not want it. You are a minority.

 

You say you want open PvP. Why? If you want a death match, use the arena. Oh, you want to attack people that aren't ready to defend against you! I get it, you just want to gank people!

 

The engine cannot handle open world pvp on any real scale. At release half of Ilum was open world PvP with capturable land, when they got over 24 people on that half of the map the entire planet started stuttering, you could crash it if you had 30+ people all fighting in one spot. Oh, and when Ilum crashed both of the flashpoints glitched out and most of the time those people would end up getting crashed out of the game as well.

 

Open world PvP on any massive scale will never be supported in this game, the engine cannot handle it. And small scale open world PvP? If you want it so much then stay on the PvP phases, you'll eventually come across others. Yes, they will be in groups most likely so if you try and gank them they'll completely destroy you but THAT is open world PvP mentality at it's core.

[SteveTheCynic]

Throughout the text I will hold as an axiom that pvp is the spring that brings life to any MMO, the player should be allowed to choose his exposure to it, but never be free of it altogether. At present the game admin is tending to reduce pvp to strictly timed and regulated 4vs4 or 8vs8, which is a grave mistake in my humble opinion. Pvp fights 16vs1, "this is my resource", "i clicked first" and "all the mobs are belong to me" are also fun and should be encouraged.

Your axiom is highly questionable. I've played a number of games that had proper OWPvP baked in (being baked in is part of what makes it "proper" OWPvP, even if it isn't large-scale), and you know what? I discovered that I don't like it. That's a big part of why I don't play ArcheAge any more - beyond a certain point, progressing becomes impossible unless you are good at ad-hoc and/or planned non-arena PvP. In Allods Online(1), it was (a) less intrusive and (b) not an obstacle to progression.

 

(1) Obvious sign that Allods has OWPvP baked into its design philosophy: the War Banner. This is an object that drops sometimes from slain NPC foes in OWPvP zones (all zones from Asee-Teph onward, roughly level 20+). If you have one and you equip it, for one hour you can attack other-faction players even if they are not flagged for PvP. Downside: everyone can see you on the map and their radar mini-maps, and other-faction high-level characters will hunt you down like the murderous dog you are.(2)

 

(2) The one occasion where I sought to gank someone was in a level 30-35 zone where I was level 47 or so - I had a moderately valid reason for being there - and an at-level other-faction player nearby used a War Banner. To help out players on my faction, I immediately mounted up and charged in to try to kill him. He, needless to say, ran away.

 

And no, 16v1 fights are not fun, except maybe if you are one of the 16, and doubly not-fun if you are the 1, level 20, against 16 level-65 bullies.

[Thoronmir]

Your axiom is highly questionable. I've played a number of games that had proper OWPvP baked in (being baked in is part of what makes it "proper" OWPvP, even if it isn't large-scale), and you know what? I discovered that I don't like it.

I kinda stopped reading there, for the simple reason that I had the same experience and need no further persuasion of your point. I've been playing MMOs for several years. I tried PvP in some of those games and hate it.

 

To call the OP's axiom "highly questionable" is, in my opinion quite generous. Especially given that the gist of his axiom is that PvP is critical to an MMO's success, but only if they force players to PvP. Like other posters, I viewed the conversion to PvP instances as a referendum on PvP. If PvP was as popular and crucial to enjoying an MMO as some suggested, then I expected to see PvP instances well-populated (in relation to PvE instances ... the last thing I want is to incite further redundant debate on whether any part of SWTOR is "well-populated").

 

The surest way to convince me to unsub and uninstall is to force me to PvP.

[Muljo_Stpho]

First post in this topic is a huge joke, right?

...

Anyway...

 

Hmmm, interesting. I always thought that the intent of making PvE and PvP instances was to benefit PvP players, so that everyone who was interested in open world PvP could gather in those instances and PvP everywhere possible, as often as they wanted to, and with others who also wanted to. It seemed to be a great solution for those who wanted open world PvP, without impacting those who did not want open world PvP. Apparently it's not quite working that way, since the instances are not currently filled with happy open world PvP players. But still, I believe the intent was to help PvP players, and not due to pressure from PvE players.

 

Even though I don't PvP, I do think it would be good to find some way of bringing more PvP players into those PvP instances. Even though I'm not interested in PvP, I know that there are some players that truly enjoy it.

 

By all appearances from their behavior, the vast majority of PvPers don't want to engage in fair fights with other PvPers. They just want to ambush those who don't expect or want to pvp. That's why they seem to hate the separated pve and pvp instances so much. No more victims.

 

The devs certainly could try to do more to create reasons to visit there though. They moved the commanders there already (much to the annoyance of those who had been treating them more like world bosses than the big pve-pvp hybrid invasion thingy the devs had intended, which would be pretty much everybody who ever participated in a commander kill group). The Gree event always had its two [PVP] tagged missions which the change to instances updated so that you must be in the PVP instance to be able to do anything on those missions. And that's about it, I think. That's the only prodding we actually have to push us into any PVP instances.

 

But beyond that maybe some sort of [PVP] tagged daily missions could be added on at least some of the planets.... The obvious to start with, of course. PVP dailies that call for a certain number of kills on each planet. But maybe there could be some sort of daily PVP objective like stealing data from a terminal in an important building like a command center or a spaceport. Add lesser ones for each of the scattered bases on a planet and one big one for the main base (2-3 different objectives to reach within the base) and a weekly for completing all of those dailies. Something to give some sort of purpose for people to work towards.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Muljo_Stpho

[Limariko]

I always thought that the intent of making PvE and PvP instances was to benefit PvP players, so that everyone who was interested in open world PvP could gather in those instances and PvP everywhere possible, as often as they wanted to, and with others who also wanted to. It seemed to be a great solution for those who wanted open world PvP, without impacting those who did not want open world PvP. Apparently it's not quite working that way, since the instances are not currently filled with happy open world PvP players. But still, I believe the intent was to help PvP players, and not due to pressure from PvE players.

 

Considering how empty I've seen the PvP instances, I've come to wonder how much of the pro-PvP crowd is really more into the idea of open world PvP rather than the reality of open world PvP. Of my friends who intensely PvP in an assortment of MMOs, I regularly hear them complain about how hard it is to gather crafting mats along with how expensive those mats are on the auction house when the pop up, how much longer it took them to accomplish certain quests because there was a max level camping out the mob or boss's spawn point, or how a max level went tearing through a low level quest hub and killed off everything standing that they could and are camping player corpses, or how they ganked someone who promptly had half their guild form a posse and steam roll them.

 

Naturally my sympathy tends to go the "Well, what did you expect with being on a PvP server? I thought you liked all PvP all the time?"

 

So with all that said and what I've seen in game, it's my opinion that when it's PvP where one can faceroll the opposition, that's fun, but when the tables are turned and you're the one getting facerolled now it's not so fun.

[Thoronmir]

So with all that said and what I've seen in game, it's my opinion that when it's PvP where one can faceroll the opposition, that's fun, but when the tables are turned and you're the one getting facerolled now it's not so fun.

My primary beef with the OP was his implication that every player should be subjected to PvP to some degree. I don't mind that MMOs offer PvP (or, at least, "PvP-like substances"). I do mind if I am in any way required to participate in PvP to complete core aspects of the game. I'm quote content to play the game without having to worry about a stepping in a steaming pile of PvP, wondering what that smell is, then scr-aping it off my shoe. Edited August 31, 2016 by Thoronmir

[PlasmaJohn]

By all appearances from their behavior, the vast majority of PvPers don't want to engage in fair fights with other PvPers. They just want to ambush those who don't expect or want to pvp. That's why they seem to hate the separated pve and pvp instances so much. No more victims.

 

While that's pretty accurate for the type that insist on forced flagging, IMO it's unfair to paint the majority of PVPers with that brush. Instanced PvP is a much different animal from Open World PvP. The latter is a dying mode in games that still adhere to level and gear disparities and can't mitigate the FotM meta.

 

Yes there are a few legitimate fans of "having to look over your shoulder" but to assert "pvp is the spring that brings life to any MMO" is ignorant of the prevailing attitude.

[Thoronmir]

Yes there are a few legitimate fans of "having to look over your shoulder" but to assert "pvp is the spring that brings life to any MMO" is ignorant of the prevailing attitude.

LEGAL DISCLAIMER: I haven't played Age of Conan in years. I really only played during Beta and for a few months after release. So, things may have changed.

 

When Age of Conan released, every RP server was an RP-PvP server. If you wanted to play on an RP server, you had to accept open world PvP. This led to a movement among Age of Conan Forum members to designate one of the PvE servers the "unofficial" RP-PvE server, to which most of us migrated.

 

However, I did dabble on an RP-PvP server ... just to see what's what. Because I understand and accept that the world of Conan is, in fact, a world of d-bag gankers and gang-ambushers who enjoy victimizing the weak and/or unprepared. I don't mean the world of the Conan videogame. I mean the world in Howard's books. Hyboria is a harsh, cruel place.

 

It's hard to play any MMO with a complete sense of immersion. One must suspend one's expectations to accommodate the mechanics of a videogame. My LOTRO Hunters have "teleport" skills that allow me to send myself and my group to the farthest reaches of the playable map in an instant. The tooltip for those skills all say that, as a Hunter, I know all the secret trails and unknown paths to expedite our journey. Cool. So, which game trail exactly gets me from the Shire to Minas Tirith in the blink of an eye (and why on Middle-earth didn't Aragon use that skill in the books?).

 

All this to say that I embrace the lack of PvP as an accommodation to game mechanics. Because I hate all PvP in all MMOs. Sure, in "real life" (sense the irony?), my Sith might want to slay that Jedi I see over there. But I don't ... because I can't ... because I choose not to PvP ... because I hate PvP ... because nothing about it is fun for me. To date, I haven't found not being able to slaughter Jedi makes my Sith feel any less Sithy.

 

TLDR: Age of Conan has topless women.

[Yorioko]

Throughout the text I will hold as an axiom that pvp is the spring that brings life to any MMO, the player should be allowed to choose his exposure to it, but never be free of it altogether. .

 

Isn't this FORCING PVP upon a player that don't want that AL ALL?

If we can choose exposure to pvp freely, which I do support fully then it makes no sense that we can't choose this because we HAVE to pvp regardless.

 

I would say, use the pvp open world toggle button and viola BOTH sides get what they want.

 

NOTHING kills the fun of a game more then some moron attaicking a random player ONLY to cause that player NOT to accomplish his game goal, mission etc.

 

I for on woul NOT enjoy fighting 99% of the imps ( lvl 65) while at the same time leveling and doing my things.

 

NO just NO

[ZanyaCross]

This is the saddest thread I've seen all day. I can't help but wonder if OP isn't one of those players that ran around in groups of four in full ranked gear hunting Lv 25s. Not making accusations, but that's the impression I'm getting.

 

Separate PVP instances and removing the ability to get accidentally flagged is the single biggest improvement this game has ever had, and this is coming from someone who routinely hits conquest objectives on nothing but PVP.

[PlasmaJohn]

When Age of Conan released, every RP server was an RP-PvP server. If you wanted to play on an RP server, you had to accept open world PvP. This led to a movement among Age of Conan Forum members to designate one of the PvE servers the "unofficial" RP-PvE server, to which most of us migrated.

 

I'd hazard a guess that the AoC administrators felt that an RP-PvP server would have a more mature crowd that wouldn't devolve into out-of-character ganking. Either that or they thought they could police it effectively. Or maybe they just hated RP'er's and wanted to hunt them down

 

However, I did dabble on an RP-PvP server ... just to see what's what. Because I understand and accept that the world of Conan is, in fact, a world of d-bag gankers and gang-ambushers who enjoy victimizing the weak and/or unprepared. I don't mean the world of the Conan videogame. I mean the world in Howard's books. Hyboria is a harsh, cruel place.

 

That it is. I've heard plenty of pro-owpvp "realism" arguments in my time. It's simply not fun being Red Shirt #81093 in somebody else's consequence free mass-murder fantasy.

 

I played in a game that was RP-PvP only. However the PvP was highly regulated and enforced. You had to have a valid in-character reason to engage, ganking earned you a temporary ban. Note: psychosis, sociopathy, or other mental irregularity were not considered valid reasons. People still managed to "grief" others.

 

It's hard to play any MMO with a complete sense of immersion.

 

True, but is total immersion all that important? I hardly need the reek of sweat and bad breath to be entertained though. In fact you can keep your smell-o-vision.

 

TLDR: Age of Conan has topless women.

 

That's a whole different form of pvp and that mezz is completely OP!